The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Fatman on April 10, 2009, 06:52:49 PM
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Saw a clip (sorry Haz) on TV where the Bethlehem PD offered free firearms training to college students - some with no experience and others with "100 hours at a range". One hundred hours at a range toted like it was an 'experienced shooter'. Then these newly trained students were handed protective gear, some got Glock simulators (paint bullets) and way too long white tee shirts to conceal the pistol. Guy they showed 'concealed' his FULL SIZE GLOCK in the 2 o'clock position into his belt, probably not with real or any gun leather. Visible to a blind squirrel, to boot. These 'trained' people were then crowded into a small lecture center environ.
Next, in comes a guy in a blue shirt. Starts saying, "I told you I'd be back" and fires at the herd. People scatter, the kid with the 2 O'clock Glock can't get it out of his pants, tangles it in his shirt. Seems to have never practiced a draw from concealment. All the while a narrator is talking about how ineffective the CCW patsies are, how one almost 'hits an innocent' while standing up and exposing herself before shooting. Anotherr comment - "ordinary people can't deal with these stressors effectively, unlike highly trained professionals". My immediate add on to the last comment was, "... who aren't here and won't be until the slaughter is over."
Quote from the 20/20 web site:
Dorney said, "You get tunnel vision as well, because now you're not looking at the entire environment; you're focused on one thing, and it's probably going to be the threat. It's been equated to taking paper towel rolls when they're empty, and sticking them up to your eyes. That's almost what you see. And ... and you have to train yourself to be able to break that."
Also, they said, the vigilante is responsible for whatever his or her bullets hit.
"You have to be able to know what your target is; but you also have to know what's behind your target, what's around your target; you're very responsible for everything," Benton said. "One stray bullet that misses and hits a bystander, you're responsible for it."
Bold mine. Vigilante my ass! Who came to who and started this mess? Note the presumption is also that you hitting someone to stop a mass murderer before he kills everyone he can is made to seem like the worst thing in the world. Of course you don't want to hit an innocent. But to not fire because this may happen is still tantamount to murder by statistics. The longer you wait, the more people die.
I really, really hope John Stossel weighs in strongly and convincingly in favor, but the writing already seems to be on the wall. The ABC machine will stifle Stossel and edit the positive aspects into oblivion.
Oh, well. One more day in the Socialist Utopia. :'(
Edit: Pulled this comment from 20/20's page. SeemsI'm not the only one to notice...
I watched with interest your exerpt from the 20/20 report which was aired on this evenings news broadcast. Let me state at the outset that I am not a gun owner or a member or representative of the NRA or any other gun owner's organizattion. I have been considering buying a gun to keep in the home, with an option to also get a concealed carry permit, which is easy here in Florida. So I've been researching the subject and going to a pistol range with friends. I had a feeling that your story would show a bumbling person unable to properly use a gun in a panic situation, and I wasn't disappointed. While I completely agree with the premise that an untrained, ill equipped person might be more of a liability than a help, the obvious point is that people who apply for carry permits should be given the necessary training to safely and effectively use a handgun. Simply showing an example of someone stumbling and bumbling through a staged scenario is both overly simplistic and misleading. You showed someone with a way too large gun stuffed into a belt and covered with a way too large baggy shirt, pretty much guaranteeing what took place. A properly trained individual would carry a gun more suited to concealed carry, in a proper holster or waistpack. The police can and should play a role in assisting law abiding citizens who wish to carry a handgun or keep a firearm in their homes to become competent in their use. When the bullets fly, even cops panic. It's all about training, not simplistically saying that people with guns automatically guarantee tragedy.
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Damn thing is AWFUL!
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Damn thing is AWFUL!
An abortion.
There's nothing like fair and unbiased reporting.............. ::)
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2nd that haz - There are so many counter- arguements so little time
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It is playing in the background and I'm just steaming. >:(
What I'd like to know is why ABC and Diane Sawyer used the Bethlehem, PA Police Dept as their "experts"? It isn't like they are a big city or have well-known trainers as members of their department.
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Most one sided, biased reporting I have ever seen!
As far a Bethlehem...heavy democrap area. (1st wife was from there.)
My BIG question is why did the NRA refuse to be interviewed?
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I noticed John Stossel wasn't part of this nonsense. He typically brings a much more reasoned and rational approach to the gun control debate. No room for him tonight.
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It was definitely a "We know the answers we want now let's ask the questions" type of thing.
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Most one sided, biased reporting I have ever seen!
As far a Bethlehem...heavy democrap area. (1st wife was from there.)
My BIG question is why did the NRA refuse to be interviewed?
Second that. Its not like this was their first rodeo. They know how to stay on message. ABC would have been compelled to put some of it on and even if it had been the same six talking points it would have been something.
FQ13 who stil likes that kid reporter and wonders why Obama won't give him an interview. The kid really is a bright spark in a seriously blighted little Fl. town. Hell, the whole town raised money to send him to the inaugaration and Obama couldn't give him 5 minutes?
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Like the rest here, I'm ticked but I realize that isn't going to help without channeling this into some thing positive for our side. The question is how do we respond to this nonsense? We know we're being setup, how do we stop them? How do we counter them? This story seems like a greatest hits of all the anti-gun stories I have read and seen over the past 20 years.
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I actually TIVOd this piece of crap. It opened with Sawyer saying Americans are buying Rifles, Pistols, and Assault Weapons (what no shotguns?) and went down hill from there.
I want to know who this "firearms trainer" Glen Dorney is. If he is an independent trainer I wouldn't go to his class if you paid me. NOT one mention from him of successful defensive use of a firearm. Shame on him.
excuse me but I have to puke now....
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My BIG question is why did the NRA refuse to be interviewed?
I'm not surprised that the NRA refused to be interviewed. By the time they got done editing and twisting the interview around who knows what it would have sounded like.
In my opinion the whole thing was staged bias phuching bull$hit propaganda. Not a single positive firearm related point was made, but I didn't expect that anyway. Excuse my language, but I'm getting pretty fed up with the media bias, lies, and collusion with the anti agenda. I'm tired of being demonized because I exercise my constitutionaly guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. I consider their statements hate speech. If this kind of bias, discriminating agenda was practiced toward gays, miniorities, woman, musslims etc., the person or group perpetrating such an atrocity would be villified to the end of the earth.
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Ah, let's do this again.
ALT SCENARIO 1: This time, unbeknownst to the "attacker", the student with the gun passes it to another student in a different part of the room.
ALT SCENARIO 2: This time two (are more) students are armed, while the attacker only thinks one is.
ALT SCENARIO 3: We go to the local jail and ask inmates if they would attack knowing that about half the class were armed? If 25%? If 10%.
ALT SCENARIO 4: (for fun) All students are armed with paint ball guns and have them ready. The attacker is lead to believe only one is CCW as in original scenario.
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Alf,
How about we also put them in realistic clothes (ie NOT clingy shirts that are longer than most dresses!) and no bulky gloves.
People that have actually praticed drawing and if not taken a course at least watched, talked to, etc people and experts on the subject.
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Alf,
How about we also put them in realistic clothes (ie NOT clingy shirts that are longer than most dresses!) and no bulky gloves.
People that have actually praticed drawing and if not taken a course at least watched, talked to, etc people and experts on the subject.
Yea, I'm surprised the girls weren't wearing prom dresses with their PPK "garter" holsters!!! ;D
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Most one sided, biased reporting I have ever seen!
As far a Bethlehem...heavy democrap area. (1st wife was from there.)
My BIG question is why did the NRA refuse to be interviewed?
Because they knew their interview would be edited down in such a way that it would make them look like rabid fringe lunatics.
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Because they knew their interview would be edited down in such a way that it would make them look like rabid fringe lunatics.
Sorry, still no excuse. They are professionals with ways of getting the message across. That is one (major) reason we support them!
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Sorry, still no excuse. They are professionals with ways of getting the message across. That is one (major) reason we support them!
The point is that, through editing, "our message" would NOT have been the one getting across. I think it could have cost our side much more than the potential gain when they knew it would be a hit piece.
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In the interest of "Fair and Balanced" propaganda the NRA was probably not invited, can't be confusing the sheep with VERIFIABLE facts now can we.
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I caught the end of it... wasn't the shooter a Cop? It looked like he got good hits, doh,I wonder why. Too bad the students had not availed themselves of good information and basic tactics. They should have put Oob and Farnham in the room as students. Now that would have been worth watching.
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This show so pissed me off that I actually re-ran it on Tivo. I made a summary of the show and more importantly I've listed the commercial advertisers on the show. THESE ARE THE FOLKS THAT WE NEED TO WRITE TO. Tell them that they are supporting propaganda and the show was NOT reporting. If they want your business they have to make it known to ABC that we object !
For what it is worth here are my notes of the show. I was going to annotate this but almost every scene and sentence was so off base I thought the better of it. When I quote something, I had re-racked the tape multiple times to verify it is correct.
ABC News 20/20 If I Had A Gun – First Airing Friday April 10, 2009
Diane Sawyer and David Muir are the hosts
Gunshots kill 30K a year
“This is not a debate about the right to own a gun in America.”
Scene of gun fight in store, 14 shots fired.
Scenes of mass shootings.
Diane says police say “think about it” regards using a gun for defense.
Chris Benton and Glen Dorney and Bethlehem PA police dept worked with ABC.
ABC created a test of the ability to defend yourself
Mulhenberg College
6 students chosen
Real Glock with paint bullets.
ABC gave the students training. It was more than what half the states require for someone to carry a concealed weapon
Move to a classroom situation.
Student is told they are the only person to have a gun with which to defend themselves.
“Joey can’t keep his hand off the gun.”
Other people are cops or work for ABC.
The student is wearing a protective helmet and GLOVES.
Joey can’t get out his gun. It’s stuck in his shirt. Or “would the intruder take his gun from him.”
Video of DEA agent shooting himself in leg while teaching kids.
Danielle gets her gun out. Diane says “A weapon alone won’t save you if your body is in the wrong place. She takes a hit to the head.”
BG is hit in the leg.
Brian freezes in his seat.
Chris Benton talks about fine motor skills when jacked up
Diane Sawyer in front of simulator screen. First time no reaction to guy firing gun at her from back of vehicle. “Second time you still can’t get there in time.”
Police train for months… Chris Benton TOO MUCH FOR A NORMAL PERSON WHO ISNT TRAINED.
Chris Lamb most experienced student. Chris takes cover. “EVEN HE FREEZES IN PLACE.”
NO WONDER police stress that you must train.
Training is a perishable skill. Glen Dorney says in 1 or 2 months you lose the skill.
Student says it MAKES YOU MORE SUSEPTABLE TO BEING SHOT.
Back to the store video of Gun fight. “14 shots and none of the shots came close” .
COMMERCIALS
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Universal movie - The Soloist
Verizon wireless
ABC extreme makeover home edition
David Muir
Every third house has a gun…”what about your neighbors?”
Video of father and son on way to Westfield Mass range then firing an UZI and AK.
Moment later contrasted with “Another young shooter looses control of the gun he is shooting and kills himself”.
“Every other day a child is accidentally shot and killed with a gun.”
911 tapes of AD shootings
Suicidal kid because of shooting his friend.
Evan Toesma (kid who shot his friend on tape) lots of crying. “Was at a friend s house not knowing the AK was loaded.”
“All because he pulled that trigger for fun.”
Little kids on video. Real small kids finding guns among toys.
Just had been given a lesson on gun safety with help from Eddie Eagle (looks like a cop running a tape).
Girls finds her dads gun in the nightstand “and it was fully loaded”
“In the ten years we have seen Virginia Tech and 29,000 children and teens killed by guns”.
Will kids today act differently today?
NJ Firearms Academy Latik Dickerson.
Asks him what he expects in this experiment of high school and college kids hired to help pack for someone moving. Expects they will tell someone when they find a gun in dresser drawer.
Diane says “In every case it starts normal.”
Girl dumped gun into packing box. “IT COULD HAVE GONE OFF!”
Of the 23 students, only 3 asked for help.
Video of Mike (kid who shot friend). Father locked up. “21 states hold parents responsible for unlocked guns in the home.”
Video of him marching in a band. Marched at Obama inauguration. Cut to BHO and Michelle waving.
Muir asks kid “is there something that you hope the President will do about guns and children in America?” Kid says.”keep them away. Lock them all up. That’s what I would do if I were president”.
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Petsmart
ATT & Apple
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New Line Cinema movie – Ghost of Girlfriends Past
Remax Reality
Bali
GMA promo
Promo ABC show - Castle
Inauguration night Diane Sawyer
Damon Weaver 10 yr old school reporter has question for president. Shows him whispering to Diane “the question”.
Lives in Pahokee Florida. “It has a population of 3,000 and an infinity of guns.”
Video of gang bangers (in Pahokee?)
In the elementary school:
60 percent know someone who was shot
40 percent have witnessed a shooting
Friend Jatavious - father got shot. Kid is crying.
No one arrested for the murder.
Kid reporter goes to the local police. Detective Mike Wallace is in violent crimes unit. Father was shot a couple of times with a shotgun. Det. Says they know who shot the father but witnesses won’t testify. “Gang members scare people”.
Three gang bangers say they didn’t report getting shot to the police.
Adults use jitterbugs (young kids) to buy the guns.
Kid reporter’s older brother Marcus approached by gangs.
Kid reporter says he is telling his story “so people don’t die”.
Segment finishes with the kid reporter saying “President Obama what can you do to help out Pahokee?” That was the question he whispered to Sawyer.
COMMERCIALS
Sprint
Reclast med
H&R block
ABC promo – The Unusuals
Marshalls
Empire City Casino
Chrysler
Optimum cable
David Muir
So many promises after Virgina Tech to “CLEAN UP THE GUNS”
“Is it any harder to buy a gun?”
Omar Samaha, student whose sister was killed at VT.
At Richmond VA gun show
VA Governor urged at the time to close gun show loophole.
Omar is given 1 hour and 5,000 dollars to buy guns at the show.
Outside the show, he bought handgun. “this even before you got into the show !”
Didn’t ask about criminal background.
Cho (shooter at VT) bought gun at gun dealer where background checks ARE required.
“The gun show loophole considered even more glaring.”
Omar carrying a “semi auto assault weapon”.
Guy passing by car which has Omar’s guns in the back. …”wanting to BUY” (like a drug dealer transaction)
BATF says gun shows are a major source of crime guns … “but they have no numbers”.
Muir calls state senator Edwards.
Calls NRA but they decline interview.
Omar says he “wonders what kind of people are making our laws?”
ABC assisted by former ATF agent Jerry Nunziato
Says nothing seller did or Omar did was wrong.
Video of Omar’s sister dancing.
Diane asks Muir what they did with the guns Omar purchased.
“Took them straight to the Richmond police department. We turned them in.”
“Tonight we’ve learned that it’s not only Omar asking for change. The nations mayors are now asking that something be done about the assault weapons, about all the guns.”
COMMERCIALS
Verizon
Travelers Insurance
Transitions lenses
GMA promo
Dancing with the stars promo
Verizon fios
Stop and Shop supermarket
ESPN
Diane sawyer
Gun rampages at:
Mall
Nursing home
Unitarian church
“Any lessons to be learned here on self defense and survival?”
Film of JJ Bittenbinder (ex cop who teaches crime awareness classes)
Try to run.
How many times is his going to shoot? 50% of the time. How many times is a shot going to hit? Says something about 12% of the time
Bill Stanton (security expert)
Don’t make panicky moves.
Just do nothing, hide.
Not every one is Rambo.
Diane says cell phone is valuable.
Diane says “Of course guns have been used to run off intruders.”
Glenn Dorsey “you just see the gun”
Police have to train and retrain to see peripheral actions.
In the student experiment they planted another gunman in his peripheral vision.
Jason, “Like our other students he makes mistakes”
Student - range training didn’t prepare him for it.
Couldn’t see if other shooter was BG or GG.
Student Ashley Malik is an instructor in marshal arts.
She fails to take sufficient cover. 15 shots fired.
Benton says “where do you think you’d be now?”
Diane says “Comes within inches of hitting other students”.
“It happens all to often”
Man shot wife. She’s dead.
Hotel clerk shoots just inches from a baby’s head.
“We all know how often police hit innocent bystanders”
“A recap now of how our students did.”
“Half couldn’t get the gun out.”
“Those who did, couldn’t shoot fast enough or accurately enough to save themselves, and there was the constant danger they would shoot a friend or bystander.”
With regard to studies of guns used in defensive situations, Diane says “we could not find one reliable study. And the ones we found were contradictory.”
Muir says “the CDC says over 10 year period, 60 thousand kids and young people have died from a gun.”
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Att
Kohls
Dove
Universal movie – State of Play
ABC promo movie -Ten Commandments
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I like how at the end of the show, they said they could not find any "reliable studies" for pro side of guns. Maybe they never heard of this man: http://criminology.fsu.edu/p/faculty-gary-kleck.php
Many of you will recognize him immediately. I haven't spoken to hm yet, but I understand that he is a liberal Democrat. And when he started looking into the issue of guns in America, he had an initial bias that the research would show negatively on guns but it did not turn out that way. Dr. Kleck had the integrity to stand by his research and let the facts change his mind.......
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COMMERCIALS
Dannon yogurt
Kohls
Dove
Fidelity
Cialis
Universal movie - The Soloist
Verizon wireless
ABC extreme makeover home edition
COMMERCIALS
Abilify anti depression med
Petsmart
ATT & Apple
Nicoderm
New Line Cinema movie – Ghost of Girlfriends Past
Remax Reality
Bali
GMA promo
Promo ABC show - Castle
COMMERCIALS
Sprint
Reclast med
H&R block
ABC promo – The Unusuals
Marshalls
Empire City Casino
Chrysler
Optimum cable
COMMERCIALS
Verizon
Travelers Insurance
Transitions lenses
GMA promo
Dancing with the stars promo
Verizon fios
Stop and Shop supermarket
ESPN
COMMERCIALS
Local news
Att
Kohls
Dove
Universal movie – State of Play
ABC promo movie -Ten Commandments
OK, folks, there's your list for your homework. Let'em know just what you think of them "sponsoring" this biased, anti-American load of crap.
ABC? F-em. 'Nuf said.
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Sorry, still no excuse. They are professionals with ways of getting the message across. That is one (major) reason we support them!
Agreed, but instead of going onto shows like this that edit and spin what you say to their benefit, the NRA should pony up the $$$ to put out their own show. Purchase the airtime from local TV networks on the grassroots level across the nation.
My local channels all show a half dozen or more 'info-mercials' each day.
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Ah, let's do this again.
ALT SCENARIO 1: This time, unbeknownst to the "attacker", the student with the gun passes it to another student in a different part of the room.
ALT SCENARIO 2: This time two (are more) students are armed, while the attacker only thinks one is.
ALT SCENARIO 3: We go to the local jail and ask inmates if they would attack knowing that about half the class were armed? If 25%? If 10%.
ALT SCENARIO 4: (for fun) All students are armed with paint ball guns and have them ready. The attacker is lead to believe only one is CCW as in original scenario.
I was thinking that multiple armed students would have made a big difference. At one of the colleges where students can carry, it is possible that an attacker might meet up with multiple attackers. Also, someone armed and in a defensive mindset isn't going to leave his/her back open. They wouldn't be sitting in the front row.
There were references comparing these scenarios to Virginia Tech. This wasn't like VT though. In that shooting, there were students and faculty who heard the shooting coming and waited, unarmed, to be slaughtered. Even 1 gun in the hands of any of those behind a closed door could have turned the tables.
This was rigged to show that the cops in Bethleham and ABC don't want anyone to think that a gun will help anyone.
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If I Only Had A Gun misfires for 20/20 when they cannot stay on topic.
April 11, 9:15 AM
How do you hit the broad side of a barn in a news report when you can't see the core issues? How did we know the report would be misleading and terribly lacking? As you know, I write for non-gun owners. I furnish analysis and facts more on the issue of liberty and citizen authority than guns themselves. Guns, liberty, and our sovereign authority over officials in this country are inextricable, and I have shown why over the years. The armed citizen is not an opinion concept, it is and always has been a safeguard of our way of life. It is this safeguard which is now under attack.
2009 sees an assault on that liberty (and our very authority) by a poor persuasive piece couched as a don't-run-with-scissors finger waving. The problem is that it did not stay on topic at all, and misses the core point of all gun ownership: it's not about guns, it's about carrying our own burdens in all things as a means of retaining independence from our own public servants. Talking citizens out of being armed and independent of much of the unneeded programs operates not for the public interest, but against it.
The rest:
http://www.examiner.com/x-2323-LA-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d11-If-I-Only-Had-A-Gun-misfires-for-2020-when-they-cannot-stay-on-topic (http://www.examiner.com/x-2323-LA-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d11-If-I-Only-Had-A-Gun-misfires-for-2020-when-they-cannot-stay-on-topic)
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Gosh - I wish we had someone with a TV show (or three) who could recreate the "experiment" with realistic equipment, realistic scenarios, and realistic results. Maybe (and I know this is a stretch) they could ask actual bonafide CCW holders to participate in a scenario where a someone with average skills (i.e. not a professional trainer) commits a crime and CCW holders respond with realistic gear.
Do we know anyone like that? Michael? Jim? Anyone?
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The question is, who'd watch? SHOOTING GALLERY pioneered running Real-World based sims, and we have followed that up with THE BEST DEFENSE. I have been criticized within the firearms community for running those simulations — "Bad guys watch your shows, too." I believe the importance of Real World information overrules the potential for teaching bad guys stuff they've already learned form a life of crime and "training" in prison.
Actually, as noted on another forum, the 20/20 sim is a "Kobayashi Maru" scenario (come on, Trekkies...step up and explain!), that is, as structured there's no win on the table. The reason it's a Kobayashi Maru is that 20/20 used a trained professional as the aggressor and the aggressor had "inside information," ie, that someone in the classroom would be armed. The trained professional (and this is obvious from the video) is looking for the gun in the room, making it virtually impossible to even best-case draw into the drawn gun (1 - 1.5 seconds to draw and fire vs. the time it takes the aggressor to pull the trigger).
It's actually a good sim for what it was intended to show, which is (and I emphasize this for a reason) IN A CRISIS SITUATION, YOU WILL NOT RISE TO THE OCCASION! RATHER, YOU WILL DEFAULT TO YOUR LEVEL OF TRAINING!
This statement is a tenant of faith in the training community, and to a person the armed students in the 20/20 sim defaulted to their level of training. Even the guy with square range experience seized up (that is, in the absence of a mental "index card" titled "What I Need to Do in a Classroom Shooting if I'm Armed" he reverted to his default monkey programming, eg, FREEZE, and hope the saber-tooth passes you by and eats Mrs. Ugg).
What they did not show was the obvious follow-up sim where the student is, say, a graduate of GUNSITE or Thunder Ranch or Combat Focus Shooting...how would a trained person "game" this sim? One way that pops to mind is to join the other students screaming and running for the exit on the right; exit the door into the hallway; draw your gun and using the door as concealment/barricade engage aggressor, preferably by shooting him in the back of the head. In a more Real World-based sim, where the aggressor is not looking for the known gun in the room, another alternative would be to in the panic over the first shots, hit the floor and as much as possible tuck up under the desk area; draw from there and engage from underneath when the aggressor's attention is elsewhere. In general, you're looking to get to a point of concealment (ideally cover, but there wasn't a lot of that in the classroom) before you draw so the aggressor does not know he/she is facing an armed opponent.
It also showed the importance of understanding how your gear will function in the context you're planning on using it. I love strong-side Kydex vertical belt holsters for general useage. However, that would not be my first choice if I was sitting in a classroom all day because any draw stroke would be telegraphed. A pocket holster would be even worse. A crossdraw might be a better choice, or the gun in a concealed carry briefcase kept right by your seat and readily accessible. Whatever you choose, you need to practice your drawstroke with the clothing you will be wearing!
Frankly, if I decided to go back to college at this late date, or if I worked in an office every day, I would UNEQUIVOCALLY have at the very least a briefcase or backpack with a Kevlar insert (such as the ones from BulletProofME; http://bulletproofme.com/Concealed-Carry-Briefcase.htm or the more sophisticated ones used for VIP protection). Not ideal, but better than nothing.
BTW, we're going to be talking more about this on the podcast tomorrow...
Michael B
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Breaking Down 60 Minutes' Anti-Gun Bias
http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/opinion-breaking-down-60-minutes-anti-gun-bias
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Enough of the gaming regards the shootout. ABC sucks. As Clint Smith would say, "got it". How about some gaming as to how to respond. Yes we chat about this on this forum. BUT WHAT IS THE INDUSTRY DOING? Once again the industry is caught totally flat footed. I swear that I don't get it ! If the ball bearing industry was being beat the hell over the roundness of their balls, don't ya think they would put something up on YOUTUBE? Wouldn't someone be Tweetering away? Wouldn't facebook, myspace etc have all sorts of stink over it? Wouldn't someone be buying time on ABC for a response even if for a 1 minute spot on the evening news?
The industry is the most backward, most out of touch, most lame I have ever seen. If someone was going into the yearbook for most likely to end up changing tires at the bus depot it would be the firearm execs and NSSF. And don't forget the NRA, SAF, GOA etc...they ain't getting off the hook either. Where in gods name are they all? Talk about freezing in hopes the sabre tooth tiger will just pass by !!!
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Enough of the gaming regards the shootout. ABC sucks. As Clint Smith would say, "got it". How about some gaming as to how to respond. Yes we chat about this on this forum. BUT WHAT IS THE INDUSTRY DOING? Once again the industry is caught totally flat footed. I swear that I don't get it ! If the ball bearing industry was being beat the hell over the roundness of their balls, don't ya think they would put something up on YOUTUBE? Wouldn't someone be Tweetering away? Wouldn't facebook, myspace etc have all sorts of stink over it? Wouldn't someone be buying time on ABC for a response even if for a 1 minute spot on the evening news?
The industry is the most backward, most out of touch, most lame I have ever seen. If someone was going into the yearbook for most likely to end up changing tires at the bus depot it would be the firearm execs and NSSF. And don't forget the NRA, SAF, GOA etc...they ain't getting off the hook either. Where in gods name are they all? Talk about freezing in hopes the sabre tooth tiger will just pass by !!!
1776,
Unfortunately, you may be right. One thing I have noticed about the industry is they value conformity and tradition. Since it has been traditional for the NRA to lead the charge, it seems everyone sits around and waits for the NRA to do something.
I finished reading a book by Richard Feldman (I think he is one of MB's friends ;) ) and he had a point, actually his main point, about the NRA: it appears that the NRA would rather fight than win. They use these "crises" and dust-ups with the media as opportunities to raise more money; I know Feldman is persona non grata at the NRA and I certainly have a problem with his view of "Joe Sixpack" gun owners. I'm waiting for the mail to pour into mailbox about defeating the gun grabbers in the media......
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1776,
Unfortunately, you may be right. One thing I have noticed about the industry is they value conformity and tradition. Since it has been traditional for the NRA to lead the charge, it seems everyone sits around and waits for the NRA to do something.
I finished reading a book by Richard Feldman (I think he is one of MB's friends ;) ) and he had a point, actually his main point, about the NRA: it appears that the NRA would rather fight than win. They use these "crises" and dust-ups with the media as opportunities to raise more money; I know Feldman is persona non grata at the NRA and I certainly have a problem with his view of "Joe Sixpack" gun owners. I'm waiting for the mail to pour into mailbox about defeating the gun grabbers in the media......
If that book was "Ricochet-Confessions of a gun lobbiest" I heard an interview with him on the Gresham show. He is STILL an NRA life member, He's simply pointing out what I've said right along, lobbying is big business and money is how they keep score. If the threat to the 2A goes away tomorrow, so does the money.
Think how many lawyers would be out of work.
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If that book was "Ricochet-Confessions of a gun lobbiest" I heard an interview with him on the Gresham show. He is STILL an NRA life member, He's simply pointing out what I've said right along, lobbying is big business and money is how they keep score. If the threat to the 2A goes away tomorrow, so does the money.
Think how many lawyers would be out of work.
Yeah, that was the book. I know he is a life member (a Benefactor I believe), but I did not think that Gresham would interview him; how long ago was that? I wouldn't mind picking that up on a podcast. I bet it was an interesting interview....
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Yeah, that was the book. I know he is a life member (a Benefactor I believe), but I did not think that Gresham would interview him; how long ago was that? I wouldn't mind picking that up on a podcast. I bet it was an interesting interview....
28 October -07 hour 2
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for those that have not seen it yet here is a part of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so7JTzrpJDE
OMO it is Training for copycats.
Is it time that decent people sought these journalists out and stopped them?
few points
where they show a group of students being put through some rudimentary training and then put into a school shooting type situation.
Nice idea but they put everything so in favor of the shooter it's not funny.
*First they have the kids aiming for the head, they don't mention anything about this in the video but all the target shots seem to be going for the head and they're being training so the trainers are obviously training the kids to aim for the head instead of centre of mass.
*Then they put them in ridiculously large t-shirts
*Give them cumbersome thumbreak holsters
*Sit them in the front row and centre of the room, and everyone else knows what's going on except the student
*Use a professional firearms instructor (who knows where the armed student is sitting) to gun them down
Watch the video. It shows out of the five students only one shoots the shooter and that's after they've been shot themselves. Every time the shooter enters the class, shoots the teacher and then goes for the armed student next. All the other "classmates" either run for the door or hide under the desks within two seconds. The student being the only one who doesn't know what's going on is pretty much the only one left in the room because everyone else knew what was happening. As I said, a pretty biased scenario.
What they should have had was a whole class of people who didn't know what was happening. Plus different positioning for the shooter in each scenario, a non professional shooter (ie: another college kid or paid actor), and one or more armed students in each room but still make it a surprise. Then run at least one scenario with no one armed in the room and see how many students survive.
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for those that have not seen it yet here is a part of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so7JTzrpJDE
OMO it is Training for copycats.
Is it time that decent people sought these journalists out and stopped them?
few points
where they show a group of students being put through some rudimentary training and then put into a school shooting type situation.
Nice idea but they put everything so in favor of the shooter it's not funny.
*First they have the kids aiming for the head, they don't mention anything about this in the video but all the target shots seem to be going for the head and they're being training so the trainers are obviously training the kids to aim for the head instead of centre of mass.
*Then they put them in ridiculously large t-shirts
*Give them cumbersome thumbreak holsters
*Sit them in the front row and centre of the room, and everyone else knows what's going on except the student
*Use a professional firearms instructor (who knows where the armed student is sitting) to gun them down
Watch the video. It shows out of the five students only one shoots the shooter and that's after they've been shot themselves. Every time the shooter enters the class, shoots the teacher and then goes for the armed student next. All the other "classmates" either run for the door or hide under the desks within two seconds. The student being the only one who doesn't know what's going on is pretty much the only one left in the room because everyone else knew what was happening. As I said, a pretty biased scenario.
What they should have had was a whole class of people who didn't know what was happening. Plus different positioning for the shooter in each scenario, a non professional shooter (ie: another college kid or paid actor), and one or more armed students in each room but still make it a surprise. Then run at least one scenario with no one armed in the room and see how many students survive.
PhilW, I understand what you are saying, but you are insinuating that ABC wanted a honest attempt at reporting. This was purely another attack piece on the 2nd amendment and nothing else. And showing the last scenario you propose would have probably given ol' Diane a heart attack, and we can't have that can we. No, this was obviously nothing more than another biased editorial masquerading as a news piece. POS is more like it.