Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: tfr270 on May 04, 2009, 04:45:08 PM
Title: 2010 Census
Post by: tfr270 on May 04, 2009, 04:45:08 PM
So my buddy calls me up and tells me that census workers were at his house today. He didn't answer the door at first since he was home for his lunch hour and wanted privacy. There is a shared driveway down the side of his house that he sees these two census workers walk down. At the end of the driveway is the landlords house over the two car garage they share. The garage door is open giving a view of everything inside. Gun safes and reloading equipment included. So they come back down the driveway after a long time and my friend decided to talk with them to see what was up. They took GPS coordinates of the house, which they say is SOP to confirm that there is a house there and not just a chimney..their words...and handed him a multipage census questionaire. This questionaire asks all kinds of questions. Search 2010 Census Questions and you can find the quesionaire. The census is not just asking the question "how many live here". They want all kinds of information for "Federal Awareness" and "Community Awareness". According to my buddy there is a question about are you a gun owner and how many guns do you own? I couldn't confirm this on the website I found. This is just something that make us go hmmmm. I thought that they were only to ask how many people live here and then move on. That the census was for redistricting purposes for congressional districts and to determine how many congressmen are needed from each state. Check out your search engine for the 2010 Census questions. Pretty interesting what they want to know and how they say why they want to know it.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 04, 2009, 05:05:30 PM
Be of good cheer. The demographic questions (not pertaining to weapons ownership if they are there >:() is a good thing. In order to allocate money for everything from education dollars, to highway funds, to farm subsidies, to predicting what the demand for medicare and etc. ad infinitum, is going to be, the feds need to know how many children, old farts, farmers etc are in a given congressional district. (Whether this money should be flowing in the first place is a different topic). Given the expense and difficulty of collecting this data, it just makes good economic sense to do it with the census collectors, which we are constitutionally mandated to pay for anyway. No conspiracy, just an economic use of resources. FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: JC5123 on May 04, 2009, 05:13:57 PM
I don't know...Though I will participate, I am very cautious of the new census. First the White House jumps all over it and now they want to have ACORN out actually taking the census??? :-\ Isn't ACORN part of the reason we are in the mess we are in right now?
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: tfr270 on May 04, 2009, 05:44:56 PM
What is ACORN?
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 04, 2009, 06:27:25 PM
I understand the need for a census for apportionment purposes, but I don't think, at the point of a gun, we should be required to answer any other questions regardless of what government allocations are involved. Count noses, ages and citizenship status. That's it. It's no business of the federal government how many toilets I have or how many guns I have. I'll be very suspicious if the actual census contains questions about gun ownership.
That said, it puts us between a rock and a hard spot. You'll go to jail quicker for lying on a federal form than you will for murder and mayhem.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on May 04, 2009, 06:31:29 PM
2 people live in this house.. One is a full blown redneck American.. the other is a "legal" citizen of the United States.. I put down my pencil after that! I don't give a tinkers damn about government allocations.. so ....................I won't lie.. I just won't tell them anything that is none of their business! Period.. end.. over and out!.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Timothy on May 04, 2009, 06:34:30 PM
2 people live in this house.. One is a full blown redneck American.. the other is a "legal" citizen of the United States.. I put down my pencil after that! I don't give a tinkers damn about government allocations.. so ....................I won't lie.. I just won't tell them anything that is none of their business! Period.. end.. over and out!.
Sounds reasonable to me M'ette.....!
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Hottrockin on May 04, 2009, 06:50:45 PM
I see nuttin' 'bout number of guns in the questionnaire.
"Questions Planned for the 2010 Census and American Community Survey" opens in PDF format.
I guess if they ask 'bout yo guns you could invite'em in and "show'em"? ~wink, wink~
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 04, 2009, 06:59:21 PM
Well, you know, trying to gather all that personal data once every 10 years isn't enough, so in 2010 the "official" census will be just what it should be. Everyone gets the short form. No toilet or gun counts. Just the basic who are you and some basic demographics.
BUT how do the bureaucrats and elitist get all the other data they really want.
OH....they've authorized something called "American Community Survey" which isn't just every 10 years but it is on-going survey and in there words
* tells us what the population looks like and how it lives
They send out the questionnaire each year to a "sample" of the population. And under Title 13 of the US code, just like the Census, you are REQUIRED to answer all the questions.
There weren't any firearm questions in the 2009 questionnaire nor do there appear to be any in the 2010 proposed questions. Things could change. Here is a link to the 2010 questions.
But you know, at any time, "they" could decide to include a firearms question in the ACS and it would become defacto registration of which households have guns.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 04, 2009, 07:04:20 PM
2 people live in this house.. One is a full blown redneck American.. the other is a "legal" citizen of the United States.. I put down my pencil after that! I don't give a tinkers damn about government allocations.. so ....................I won't lie.. I just won't tell them anything that is none of their business! Period.. end.. over and out!.
And that's all you're legally required to say (unless the law has changed, my info is current as of 1992). Its like talking to the cops. There are exactly three rules: you can't lie, you have to give your name and address, and if there are exigent circumstances, you have to provide the relevant data. Beyond that, its up to you. Personally, given that its my tax money we're talking about, I would rather it be be allocated in the most effecient manner possible. Most state employees are just like us, hardworking people trying to do a job. (they just have better health care). They do, however, need information, if they're going to do a halfway competent job. So, unless I feel the question is absurdly invasive or threatening, I will answer it. To use the example about toliets, that is of vital interest to your city utilities manager who needs to predict water usage so there is an adequate supply. This is particularly true of regions of the country who are (like Florida) in a drought. You might think its trivial but I can tell you that there is a lot of blood spilled over what questions get asked on those very scarce few inches of a census form. There are usually a lot of dollars at stake behind each of them and I would urge you, just like the toilet thing, to think through the implications before just dismising them. FQ13 who doesn't trust the government but wants to get his money's worth out of his tax dollars
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Timothy on May 04, 2009, 07:37:01 PM
In my entire life, living in no less than twenty different places in six different states, I have NEVER even received this type of questionaire. I have filled out census paperwork but not to the extent of this survey...
Maybe it's because I'm Irish and we don't qualify as 3/5ths of a human yet! ;D ;D ;D
Timothy Sean.....
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 04, 2009, 08:04:08 PM
Art. 1 Sec 2 Clause 3:
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.2 The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.
I agree with M'ette, Name age and address.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 04, 2009, 08:07:52 PM
In my entire life, living in no less than twenty different places in six different states, I have NEVER even received this type of questionaire. I have filled out census paperwork but not to the extent of this survey...
Maybe it's because I'm Irish and we don't qualify as 3/5ths of a human yet! ;D ;D ;D
Timothy Sean.....
Relax Timothy, We Irish are special. We have fought on the winning side in every European or American war of the last 600 years ! Of course we've also been represented on the loosing side as well.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 04, 2009, 08:17:00 PM
Relax Timothy, We Irish are special. We have fought on the winning side in every European or American war of the last 600 years ! Of course we've also been represented on the loosing side as well.
Often fighting against each other. The one sure way to ensure that the Irish win. ;D Just to make nice (being part Irish), though mostly Scottish, and damn it, its nae a fookin skirt! I've enclosed the following tune. Its a very pretty one from the civil war. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EAcieN3BW8&feature=related
FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: runstowin on May 04, 2009, 08:23:24 PM
Looking at some of the questions, I see that this is a swell survey for a socialist country, I'm sure glad I live in a free country instead, or do I?
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 04, 2009, 08:28:02 PM
For God's sake Tom, its just sad that a Scott has to teach you how a good Irish war song goes. Its two parts pathos and one part f..k you, mixed with a dash of nostalgia. Stirred not shaken, lest you get a watery drink, and as we both know that won't do at all. ;D Try these, one from the Irish Civil War and one from ours.
Or if you prefer a punk version from your neck of the woods, here's my current personal favorite (narrowley edging out the Pogues and Flogging Molly), the Dropkick Murphys
FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Fatman on May 04, 2009, 10:00:54 PM
In my entire life, living in no less than twenty different places in six different states, I have NEVER even received this type of questionaire. I have filled out census paperwork but not to the extent of this survey...
Maybe it's because I'm Irish and we don't qualify as 3/5ths of a human yet! ;D ;D ;D
Timothy Sean.....
Being as the half of me that's not Italian is half Irish I am proud to say we qualify for a fifth! ;D
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 05, 2009, 12:44:13 AM
Thanks for the imbeds M'lette! FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on May 05, 2009, 12:57:23 AM
UR Welcome..... :)
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 05, 2009, 01:31:51 AM
Love the Don Trionni paintings used to illustrate the Drop Kick Murphy version of the "Fighting 69th. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9D38J0yH9w&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKMbWUieQE4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMK74QQp8M8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwOmYNvISnM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcglqmrvPxw&feature=related
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 05, 2009, 03:50:33 AM
Love the Don Trionni paintings used to illustrate the Drop Kick Murphy version of the "Fighting 69th.
Good catch on the paintings. You know, what has always amazed me about his stuff (out of the closet Civil War geek here) is how he manged to get the grass right. Its a stupid thing, but honestly, how do you manage to paint every single blade of grass and have them bending in the wind? I don't get it. FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 05, 2009, 05:26:05 AM
Quote from: fightingquaker13
....snip... To use the example about toliets, that is of vital interest to your city utilities manager who needs to predict water usage so there is an adequate supply.... snip.........
Sorry I don't buy that example. In most location's, between the building permits and the real estate tax rolls the government already knows exactly how many houses and how many toilets. I seriously doubt that any water management planning is done by anything other than just the head count. It's really a function of the number of people rather than the number of toilets.
The government doesn't really NEED to be snooping into our lives to the extent that the Title 13 allows. They just WANT to snoop for social engineering purposes.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 05, 2009, 05:37:49 AM
Sorry I don't buy that example. In most location's, between the building permits and the real estate tax rolls the government already knows exactly how many houses and how many toilets. I seriously doubt that any water management planning is done by anything other than just the head count. It's really a function of the number of people rather than the number of toilets.
The government doesn't really NEED to be snooping into our lives to the extent that the Title 13 allows. They just WANT to snoop for social engineering purposes.
I get your larger political point. I don't want to decend into geekdom, but there is a point to be made. My uncle was the city engineer for West Palm Beach. Given the fact that our sewer system is old (as in so old there aren't even maps of pipe lines for older neighborhoods) and that our water table is very low, trying to avoid backflow of sewage into the system is a very real day to day issue. Within the last year, we have had three 72 hour boil water notices, while they try to locate and modernize the pipes. All this is done with federal grants. The thing is that knowing whether you have low water or regular toilets actually makes a difference in terms of the sewage pipes and water capacity needed. I'm not making an argument for Big Brother here, I'm just pointing out that there is another side to it, and that a lot of folks need info to do the jobs we're paying them to do. FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 05, 2009, 05:43:04 AM
Quote from: fightingquaker13
And that's all you're legally required to say (unless the law has changed, my info is current as of 1992). Its like talking to the cops. There are exactly three rules: you can't lie, you have to give your name and address, and if there are exigent circumstances, you have to provide the relevant data. Beyond that, its up to you.
Sorry but here again I must disagree. There are fines for incomplete or false answers.
Understand, I DO NOT LIKE IT. But the US Code, Title 13, Chapter 7, Section 221 says.
Quote
(a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100. (b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a) of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is false, shall be fined not more than $500.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 05, 2009, 05:46:35 AM
Sorry but here again I must disagree. There are fines for incomplete or false answers.
Understand, I DO NOT LIKE IT. But the US Code, Title 13, Chapter 7, Section 221 says.
But isn't the Census already tainted and bogus since the White House Chief of Staff is the one running it?? I always thought that the census was a non partisan head count. That's it. They have already told us this is about politics. I'm with M'ette and Tom on this one. Name, Rank, and Serial Number.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 05, 2009, 04:19:15 PM
Quote from: fightingquaker13
I'm not making an argument for Big Brother here, I'm just pointing out that there is another side to it,
I think we're on the same page. Some information is needed to carry out the functions we've impowered local governments to do, but generally that's on the local or at most regional level.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 05, 2009, 04:21:32 PM
First it's not that simple. They take your $100 and then give you another questionnaire. Don't answer that one. Another $100 and another questionnaire.
GPS coordinates? Easier to program the surveillance drones with Lat/Lon than with street addresses.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 05, 2009, 04:25:06 PM
First it's not that simple. They take your $100 and then give you another questionnaire. Don't answer that one. Another $100 and another questionnaire.
GPS coordinates? Easier to program the surveillance drones with Lat/Lon than with street addresses.
It also works for the sat guided bombs. FQ13
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: alfsauve on May 05, 2009, 04:33:53 PM
An one last point about Census:
They make a big point about privacy and Title 13 makes a big deal about it,
BUT
All it takes is for just the right crisis to come along and "they" will repeal the privacy clauses, retroactively, so quickly as to make your head spin. Regardless of what the government promises, they can just as easy with a single roll call vote reverse themselves.
So just use a little imagination. You're the MoveOn/Brady Bunch/Saros team and your goal is total gun confiscation. First you must locate all the guns. So on the guise of full understanding the problem you include a "gun related" question in the Census, err sorry, the ACS (which has the same power as the census). Privacy, privacy, privacy you exclaim. Just want to get a handle on the true scope of gun ownership. Maybe even the NRA is convinced to support this because they think it'll show how big and pervasive gun ownership is and it will scare congress into inaction. WRONG. The next crisis to come along congress will be urged to reverse the census privacy as it relates to firearms to help avoid the "crisis". (You can't waste a good crisis you know.) That private information you gave.....out the window. Feds now know what house doors to knock on. Lied on the survey form did you? Well, for those that didn't lie it'll just be confiscation. For those that lied, it'll be confiscation and jail. (you see it's always worse for those who lie to the government.)
Maybe won't happen that way. Maybe.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: PegLeg45 on May 05, 2009, 11:54:16 PM
But how do they really know if you're lying or not without kicking down a few doors or checking a lot of 4473's? And, by then it'll be way past the point of no return and the "S**t" will have hit the fan. What if you sold all your guns the week before you filled out the census paperwork? And bought them all back a week after you filled out the census paperwork? Would you 'technically' have lied?
Hell, I don't know....no simple solution....
Just the late-night ramblings of a half-liquored up, one-legged fat man...............cheers...... ;)
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on May 06, 2009, 02:02:00 PM
I have looked at these questions several times. And what are they going to do if millions of people refuse to answer their stupid invasive questions? Tie up the system and go after every 100$ bill? And if we don't pay? then what? They going to come and take me to frickin' jail cause I didn't tell them how much $$ I make in a year and where I get my income from and how much $$ I made on my land that I owe? Or how many hours a day I take care of my grandchildren? Son of a bitches better get after it and take me to jail then.. cause I'm not answering !(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/redhot.gif)
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on May 06, 2009, 07:24:44 PM
ahheem... *clearing my throat, looking down & kicking the dirt with my toe*
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/sorry.gif)everyone for going off the deep end.. :-[ I really had a very stressful day. Too many people wanting too much of me. And I guess this census thing was the over the top kicker.. It's not an excuse... I know...............(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/sad2.gif)
sighhhhhhhh.......I'll try to be more lady like in the future.. (http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/newshy.gif)
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: Rastus on May 06, 2009, 07:48:46 PM
"But I paid my fine. The census workers took it directly. Why am I being fined again??? You mean I have to pay it again???"
I'd like to see that about 50,000 times.
Title: Re: 2010 Census
Post by: fightingquaker13 on May 07, 2009, 03:34:39 AM
"But I paid my fine. The census workers took it directly. Why am I being fined again??? You mean I have to pay it again???"
I'd like to see that about 50,000 times.
Who knows Rastus, if ACORN, or any of the other profesional signature gathering groups out there are doing it, they might be getting paid on commission. They'd probably like to see it too. FQ13