The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Teresa Heilevang on May 26, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
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If this has been posted.. someone tell me.. I did a search and didn't find it..
but that doesn't mean anything.. :-\
Waterboarding..
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And once more for the class. The Geneva Convention isn't about what kind of people the enemy are, its about reciprocity. Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Even Saddam's army treated Jessica Lynch pretty well. If you don't want to see it done to an American soldier, don't do it. Do I need to repeat myself?
FQ13 who is grateful to M'lette for posting that and would pay a thousand dollars a second if Cheney were man enough to do that
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IMHO, I do not consider this torture, the word itself brings up images of much more terrible things, The Rack, Hot Pokers, Bamboo Shoots, flat out beatings, jumper cables to body parts in a wet room, Spanish Inquisition, medieval type physical damaging methods that leave permanent damage.
This reporter once it stopped, it was over, Hell Yeah it freaked him out, it would anybody, including our own Navy recruits in SEAR training.
But he was talking, not disfigured, and continued his report.
The radio talk show host Mancow, was waterboarded and disagrees.
Even though attacks were thwarted by the info we received through waterboarding, there are a host of other things that are really nasty. What the N. Vietnamese did to John McCain, was far more severe than this.
http://www.inquisitr.com/24491/conservative-radio-host-mancow-waterboarded-now-says-its-torture/
And once more for the class. The Geneva Convention isn't about what kind of people the enemy are, its about reciprocity. Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Even Saddam's army treated Jessica Lynch pretty well. If you don't want to see it done to an American soldier, don't do it. Do I need to repeat myself?
FQ13 who is grateful to M'lette for posting that and would pay a thousand dollars a second if Cheney were man enough to do that
Since when did killing women, children, and flat out targeting civilians, oh don't forget beheading reporters, stoning little girls,, dragging our dead soldiers through the streets and hanging them from a bridge deserve reciprocity for a little water on their face?
The Geneva Convention taken literally applies to a uniformed army. Not terrorists that would slit your mothers throat after they rape her.
C'mon FQ,.. take the blinders off man. Frat hazing is worse than this...
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C'mon FQ,.. take the blinders off man. Frat hazing is worse than this...
Tell that to the next American soldier that gets captured. Thats what bothers me. I don't give a rat's rump about the guys in Gitmo and I'm not on some Christian moral crusade. What I am concerened with is that we're not the most popular team in town. I also know we send a lot our folks into harms way. It USED to be known, that we treated our prisoners decently. This helped our guys get the same, because the enemy knew that sooner or later they'd probably have some of their guys captured by us. This stuff pisses me off because I think it diminishes US power to condemn torture in Sudan and China, and because it poses a danger to our troops.
FQ13
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awesome!!!! a how to video! I always wondered how they did it...
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Now I know how to influence my kids not to leave the lawn mower out again. ;D I know there are some folks out there who do not approve of this. But I do believe National Security is a must and the CIA unfortunately has dropped the ball on intelligence. This lack of intelligence, or disregard for intelligence cost a few thousand lives on 9/11. Waterboarding is nothing compared to the brutality of beheading a human being.
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No technique is too harsh for people who behead captives and mutilate their own young. These people are one step up from animals who eat their own kind.
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No technique is too harsh for people who behead captives and mutilate their own young. These people are one step up from animals who eat their own kind.
Somehow, I think I mentioned that that's not the point. Its about reciprocity. If you would call it torture if it were done to Jessica Lynch, don't do it! Why do you not get that?
FQ13
PS For anybody who thinks I'm an idealistic idiot (yes you Tom) bear in mind that the Nazis summarily executed or worse, captured Sovs. Our guys, and the Brits were generally, though not always, treated ok (for very large values of ok, but still a lot better than the alternative). This was in part motivated by racial ideology, but also because they knew we were treating their guys decently. And this was from the folks that brought you Auschwitz.
FQ13
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Cheney daughter in action against aggressive MSNBC reporter (on Cheney daughter in action against aggressive MSNBC reporter (on torture)
This short video is worth your time as it clearly illustrates the 'bullying' techniques of MSNBC and the professional competence of Liz Cheny.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/04/023409.php
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Since when did killing women, children, and flat out targeting civilians, oh don't forget beheading reporters, stoning little girls,, dragging our dead soldiers through the streets and hanging them from a bridge deserve reciprocity for a little water on their face?
The Geneva Convention taken literally applies to a uniformed army. Not terrorists that would slit your mothers throat after they rape her.
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Gee, how dare you inject logic into the arguement? You are a bad man Mr. Twyacht. Your attitude is going to get you thrown in some fascist prison if the liberal dregs who run this country are able to continue to progress down the communist path....you better watch yourself. Or else you could end up in some Citizen Endearment and Reeducation Camp with someone like me, or Haz, or M58, or M25, or Tombogan, or Ksail, or Majer, or Brosometal, or. Jaybet, or Pathfinder, or Timothy, or Texasbryan, or Deepwater, or Runstowin, or Swoop, or PegLeg45, or 1911 Junkie, or Sgt Z Squad, or ericire12, or...maybe even philw...you never know...you better watch out for yourself.
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Somehow, I think I mentioned that that's not the point. Its about reciprocity. If you would call it torture if it were done to Jessica Lynch, don't do it! Why do you not get that?
FQ13
PS For anybody who thinks I'm an idealistic idiot (yes you Tom) bear in mind that the Nazis summarily executed or worse, captured Sovs. Our guys, and the Brits were generally, though not always, treated ok (for very large values of ok, but still a lot better than the alternative). This was in part motivated by racial ideology, but also because they knew we were treating their guys decently. And this was from the folks that brought you Auschwitz.
FQ13
No, it's not.
We are battling people who capture and then summarily execute our unarmed soldiers - it has happened a number of times. We have not gotten one soldier back alive other that we didn't rescue (Lynch) or escape on his own.
We are battling people who execute civilians by beheading them in front of a video camera.
We are battling people who attack and kill, then drag their boddies through the streets and hang them from street lights.
And all this was before any word of waterboarding came out. This is a reflection of who they are at their core. Do not make the mistake that they share any values with you. Other than basic human needs (food, shelter, etc.) - they don't. You are on their earth only to convert or be killed.
So where's this reciprocity you speak of?
Got it?
As for the Nazis treatment of our troops, tell that to the men at Malmedy, among others.
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No, it's not.
We are battling people who capture and then summarily execute our unarmed soldiers - it has happened a number of times. We have not gotten one soldier back alive other that we didn't rescue (Lynch) or escape on his own.
We are battling people who execute civilians by beheading them in front of a video camera.
We are battling people who attack and kill, then drag their boddies through the streets and hang them from street lights.
And all this was before any word of waterboarding came out. This is a reflection of who they are at their core. Do not make the mistake that they share any values with you. Other than basic human needs (food, shelter, etc.) - they don't. You are on their earth only to convert or be killed.
So where's this reciprocity you speak of?
Got it?
As for the Nazis treatment of our troops, tell that to the men at Malmedy, among others.
Right on the money.
+100
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Gee, how dare you inject logic into the arguement? You are a bad man Mr. Twyacht. Your attitude is going to get you thrown in some fascist prison if the liberal dregs who run this country are able to continue to progress down the communist path....you better watch yourself. Or else you could end up in some Citizen Endearment and Reeducation Camp with someone like me, or Haz, or M58, or M25, or Tombogan, or Ksail, or Majer, or Brosometal, or. Jaybet, or Pathfinder, or Timothy, or Texasbryan, or Deepwater, or Runstowin, or Swoop, or PegLeg45, or 1911 Junkie, or Sgt Z Squad, or ericire12, or...maybe even philw...you never know...you better watch out for yourself.
I'm tearing up, must be the proudest moment of my life. Thank you for mentioning me in that group.
Seems to me that these terrorists were cutting peoples heads off long before they even heard of waterboarding. So much for the logic that they will be nice if we be nice first.(That's the kind of thinking that has harmed this country more than helped) These terrorist assholes probalby sit back and laugh when they hear the "outrage" over waterboarding. It's something they never thought of because it's not cruel enough. These people only respect power and only understand pain and death. We are not doing enough of each.
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twyacht hit the nail right on the head about the Geneva Convention. Terrorists did not sign the agreement so they are not bound by rules of conflict.
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The thing that I find so interesting about the water boarding debate is that the people who are so irate that we are doing this are mad because we are "torturing" terrorists. They never bring up the fact that this is done to our own troops as a form of training. If they are so damn sure that this is torture, then why are they not outraged that we are, by their definition, "torturing" American soldiers ???
They also go on and on about terrorists who have been water boarded and have "long term psychological ramifications" from the "harsh interrogation method", but I have yet to see one American soldier who has been water boarded and has had psychological problems because of it. ???
The end all be all of this, however, is that who ever brought this argument to the public square should be charged with treason...... this entire conversation about if we should use the method or not should have only taken place in classified congressional meetings. Bringing this to the public square undermines our military and CIA in a despicable and immeasurable way
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I think I have read that some captured enemy combatants (NOT POW's), were also threatened to be sent to Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt for interrogation by the locals in those countries.
Usually that in and of itself motivated individuals to give up info.
I wonder why??? ;)
Methinks it had something to do with something far worse than waterboarding.
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I forget who first made the statement that I'm about to write, but I agree with it wholeheartedley:
If passing an electrical current through some terrorist's scrotum causes him to give information that will save one American life, I have only 3 things to say:
1) Red is positive
2) Black is negative
3) Make sure his nuts are nice and wet.
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I forget who first made the statement that I'm about to write, but I agree with it wholeheartedley:
If passing an electrical current through some terrorist's scrotum causes him to give information that will save one American life, I have only 3 things to say:
1) Red is positive
2) Black is negative
3) Make sure his nuts are nice and wet.
And I'll throw the switch!!
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And I'll throw the switch!!
The BG's tied Rambo to a metal box spring too.
Okay, I'll keep the corner company this time,.... :P
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The BG's tied Rambo to a metal box spring too.
Okay, I'll keep the corner company this time,.... :P
Actually, if we're talking about water bording Stallone, who is pro--gun control AFTER making his millions as Rambo, I'll bring the popcorn.
FQ13
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Actually, if we're talking about water bording Stallone, who is pro--gun control AFTER making his millions as Rambo, I'll bring the popcorn.
FQ13
Yes, but ask Bruce Willis or Tom Selleck about gun control. I like my popcorn lightly buttered. :-*
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Somehow, I think I mentioned that that's not the point. Its about reciprocity. If you would call it torture if it were done to Jessica Lynch, don't do it! Why do you not get that?
FQ13
PS For anybody who thinks I'm an idealistic idiot (yes you Tom) bear in mind that the Nazis summarily executed or worse, captured Sovs. Our guys, and the Brits were generally, though not always, treated ok (for very large values of ok, but still a lot better than the alternative). This was in part motivated by racial ideology, but also because they knew we were treating their guys decently. And this was from the folks that brought you Auschwitz.
FQ13
Reciprocity, RECIPROCITY, I say we pull their nuts off and their finger nails and then behead them, then lets see what they say. Reciprocity my big ass . You my friend have a distorted view of whats happening.
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I remember that my dear old, departed daddy used to tell me, "Son, there's no problem that can't be solved by talking it out. Ocassionally you have to get their attention first, but then you can talk."
The problem, as I see it, is one of language differences. Too many in the United States, starting in the White House, seem to want to sit in a circle, hold hands with the terrorists, and sing Kumbaya. Sdaly, however, the language that our enemies understand is cruelty and barbarism. Perhaps it's time to "get their attention" by "speaking their language" for a while.
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Wasn't Demi Moore waterboarded (more or less) in GI Jane???
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Wasn't Demi Moore waterboarded (more or less) in GI Jane???
same idea, diffrent way of doing it.
Torture is known for not being a reliable way of gathering intell. People will say/do anything to make it stop.
I still have not made up my mind rather I like our goverment using torture or not. Water boarding when done correctly is torture...
otherwsie its just a shower.
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Torture is known for not being a reliable way of gathering intell. People will say/do anything to make it stop.
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Tab, I'm allright with your statements. I understand, there are a lot of people who say that data is unreliable and how it's become somewhat of a mantra of the MSM. Someone who has no information may be motivated to say something he thinks will make the process stop, thereby getting unreliable data. I'll go that far with you.
I digress when general statements, like "unreliable information", are foisted on the public as fact to be gobbled up...I question specifically the way that "unreliable information" is used by many...just like the misleading and twisted statements put out by our government to lead us to believe Mexican drug lords were being outfitted by the Wal Mart in El Paso or Corpus Christi.
How much reliable information is gathered....apparently enough to stop a lot of bad things and keep a lot of people alive. Then again, it's coming from government officials. Who do you believe, and that's where discernment comes in. Who is it (in your opinion) that has made misleading, twisted and patently untrue statements in attempts to deceive? Who said they were going to do one thing...and did another...but hey, it's allright they were trying to get elected...we all knew what "he-she-whoever" really meant ( ;) ) nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Whether left or right, lying is lying. The US Government, especially the portion called politician, has been doing that for quite some time and the lies are ramping up. In a past life I worked with people who provided security who came from military intelligence (no, it's not a misnomer), FBI, the NSA etc. So, believe my statement or not, but the people who I worked with were straight shooters so if I err, I do it wisely towards the intelligence community in whom I still have a measure of faith. I remember their chagrin when Clinton, pushing the peace dividend, gutted the intelligence community...as I remember one of them saying in the early 90's after terrorists tried to bomb the WTC and bring it down that an airplane being flown into one of the Twin Towers was a threat...despite the lies of the politicians to the contrary that they were never informed.
I'm good with waterboarding and I don't buy the rather thin arguement that not waterboarding protects our troops. If you have the opinion that no good comes from it, just reflect upon the sources and reliability of the data you used to come up with that opinion. I truly believe that terrorists and fanatics, who don't care about killing civies as a course of terror, are deterred from murdering and torturing troops by us omitting a tool to protect ourselves with. And, I ask, can anyone who believes our troops will be protected in mass from terrorist torture by not waterboarding be truly sane?
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I'm good with waterboarding and I don't buy the rather thin arguement that not waterboarding protects our troops. If you have the opinion that no good comes from it, just reflect upon the sources and reliability of the data you used to come up with that opinion. I truly believe that terrorists and fanatics, who don't care about killing civies as a course of terror, are deterred from murdering and torturing troops by us omitting a tool to protect ourselve with. And, I ask, can anyone who believes our troops will be protected in mass from terrorist torture by not waterboarding be truly sane?
Rastus
I specifically left out the morality of torture in my critique of torture. It was about the threat I think it poses to our standing abroad and threats to our troops in future wars. You however make it very clear that you are a Christian, so I'll ask you point blank. I don't mean this to be insulting, its just an honest question. Could someone who wore a WWJD (what would Jesus do) bracelet on their hand waterboard someone if they honestly gave a damn what the answer was? I have my thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.
FQ13
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its not just people that don't know anything. People that do can and have gave bad intel knowing that it would make the torture stop and you waste time/resorces. granted those are only the "hardcore" and are very rare.
I'd really like to know the truth about how much good intel we actually get from doing things like this.
No one is ever going to release that info
i'd bet we get very little..
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Rastus
I specifically left out the morality of torture in my critique of torture. It was about the threat I think it poses to our standing abroad and threats to our troops in future wars.
I am not under the impression that our troops will be treated nicely by any militant extreamist. Daniel Pearl is the best example of that, what did reporters do to the Taliban? I don't recall CNN cutting the head off anyone.
You however make it very clear that you are a Christian, so I'll ask you point blank. I don't mean this to be insulting, its just an honest question. Could someone who wore a WWJD (what would Jesus do) bracelet on their hand waterboard someone if they honestly gave a damn what the answer was? I have my thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.
I am against waterboarding because we prosecuted Japanese for it after WWII. But I think that waterboarding is far from torture. On the other hand, I think waterbaording is the adult form of "Dunking" at the pool. I have had my older brother hold my head underwater while we were swimming and playing about. Sure I was scared and it wasn't fun at the time, but how many people have I walked up behind and dunked? Loads!
In my book torture isn't discomfort or being scared in a box with a bug, that is childish crap. Torture is being torn apart on a rack, stuffed into the iron maiden and then casterated. No lasting pain, no torture.
It is retarded and counterintuitive to think that if we don't waterboard, they won't cut our heads off. They will always cut our heads off, burn our bodies and booby trap them for others to get hurt. We are not in the business of ripping fingernails out, we splash water on someone's face for two minutes. Please; That is not torture (Illegal under our own standards, maybe) And as for what I think Jesus would think...
Father forgive them...for they know not what they do.
;) I think he would be able to forgive me for something like waterboarding.
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On the other hand, I think waterbaording is the adult form of "Dunking" at the pool. I have had my older brother hold my head underwater while we were swimming and playing about. Sure I was scared and it wasn't fun at the time, but how many people have I walked up behind and dunked? Loads!
In my book torture isn't discomfort or being scared in a box with a bug, that is childish crap. Torture is being torn apart on a rack, stuffed into the iron maiden and then casterated. No lasting pain, no torture.
Is water boarding Torture? No.
Hazing? Yes.
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Unreliable information?
It's not like they interogate one guy and run out chasing the info he provided.
You interogate 50 guys and put the info together and see what is consistent. (Then you hook their nuts up to a battery just to make sure the story doesn't change ;D ).
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Hazing is a right and priviledge that solidifies the bonds of brotherhood.
Well, I didn't think it at the time, but now that I am over my required duty, it is no longer torture. ;) funny how things change.
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Hazing is a right and priviledge that solidifies the bonds of brotherhood.
Hazing is a childish game played by bored little frat boys who probably got their butts kicked in HS...
Waterboarding on the other hand, looks like bobbing for apples, the hard way! ;D
If it saved just ONE American life.....it was worth all the effort.....the rest of the world can bite me!
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Hazing is a childish game played by bored little frat boys who probably got their butts kicked in HS...
Waterboarding on the other hand, looks like bobbing for apples, the hard way! ;D
If it saved just ONE American life.....it was worth all the effort.....the rest of the world can bite me!
so now the question is, at what point is it not worth one american life?
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Hazing is a childish game played by bored little frat boys who probably got their butts kicked in HS...
Waterboarding on the other hand, looks like bobbing for apples, the hard way! ;D
If it saved just ONE American life.....it was worth all the effort.....the rest of the world can bite me!
That is what it comes down to for me. No matter how we treat or "mis"treat someone, the terrorists of the world are not swayed in the least by what we do to the ones we capture. Given the chance the rest of the world, terrorist or otherwise, WILL bite us no matter what we do. In my mind it comes down to how much we want to maintain our freedoms, our culture, our very way of life! No, I'm not advocating out and out torture. But I do not believe that waterboarding is torture in the way the rest of the world thinks about it.
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Hazing and waterboarding are two completely different actions. Those who are hazed are aware that something humbling will befall them. Those that are waterboarded are being interrogated for information that could cost the lives of other humans and possibly our own countrymen and women. This is a very silly comparison.
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Hazing is a childish game played by bored little frat boys who probably got their butts kicked in HS...
I wasn't talking about hazing in school, I got it in the military. Although, I think there is a limit to what should be done, and it wasn't really demeaning or anything. It was no worse than a childish prank that everyone got played on them at the same time.
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I don't care what the rest of the world thinks on what we do to extract information from scumbags. I don't even care if it is an American life, innocent life being saved and it is worth it or if we honestly thought that an innocent was in danger it would be okay.
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Let's see....pouring water over someones head to get info that quite possibly may save a city from being bombed, or planes being crashed, or planes being hi-jacked, or anything else that would involve terrorism........hmmmmmm....I'll bring the buckets.
Terrorist don't play by "the rules".......... who makes the "rules of war" anyway?
Kind of like the folks who brought us mustard gas bitching about the use of shotguns as being 'cruel' weapons.......hmmmmm.
Yeah....I'll bring the buckets.
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Hazing is a childish game played by bored little frat boys who probably got their butts kicked in HS...
Waterboarding on the other hand, looks like bobbing for apples, the hard way! ;D
If it saved just ONE American life.....it was worth all the effort.....the rest of the world can bite me!
This "little frat boy" didn't get his butt kicked... :P
Ignorance abounds from those that have no concept of reality and only rely on their own biases, prejudices, and stereotypes. Not to pick on Timothy (too much) but his comment betrays his biases, prejudices, et. al. regarding fraternities in the same manner that many of the comments on waterboarding (not just here, but everywhere from all corners) betray the same regarding the concept of modern interrogation generally and waterboarding specifically.
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its not just people that don't know anything. People that do can and have gave bad intel knowing that it would make the torture stop and you waste time/resorces. granted those are only the "hardcore" and are very rare.
I'd really like to know the truth about how much good intel we actually get from doing things like this.
No one is ever going to release that info
i'd bet we get very little..
You don't suppose our intel guys have figured that one out? Of course the info has to be vetted, maybe by waiting a few days and hitting them again with the water and see if the story is the same. Very simple as a start.
What I find most interesting is that our own military has stopped waterboarding its own ranks as a means to toughen them up in case they are captured. It turns out it is so effective, they had 100% giving everything up - accurately. And this was among Seals, Spec Ops, Green Berets, etc., not just the rank and file. That says a lot about its usefulness.
bho's ploy was to expose our secrets to the world to shame us as a country and to make our intel people's jobs just that much harder.
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You don't suppose our intel guys have figured that one out? Of course the info has to be vetted, maybe by waiting a few days and hitting them again with the water and see if the story is the same. Very simple as a start.
What I find most interesting is that our own military has stopped waterboarding its own ranks as a means to toughen them up in case they are captured. It turns out it is so effective, they had 100% giving everything up - accurately. And this was among Seals, Spec Ops, Green Berets, etc., not just the rank and file. That says a lot about its usefulness.
bho's ploy was to expose our secrets to the world to shame us as a country and to make our intel people's jobs just that much harder.
I think you put alot of faith in our "intellagence" agentcys... take 9/11 for example, there was so many red flags that were known ahead of time.
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I think some on here are a little wrong in their thinking. Were not talking about a standing army, a national army. Were talking about rebels, and worst. The Geneva convention does not by any means refer to these animals. These animals are terrorists at best and abominations of their faith . My opinion is we kill and extract information in any way possible. They have relinquished their rights under any law by their actions. I'm talking about the tali ban and the "extreme " Muslims. How anyone can stick up for these animals blows my mind. And no we wouldnt expect the Iraq army to torture, as we wouldnt any army. Have we tortured any countrys army members? Not to my knowledge.
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I think you put alot of faith in our "intellagence" agentcys... take 9/11 for example, there was so many red flags that were known ahead of time.
No, I'm thinking if you figured it out then they probably did too - a long time ago. I think most of the agents on the street - the tips of the spear - are very sharp. It is the dullards in the bureaucracies that make the spear, well, dull.
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No, I'm thinking if you figured it out then they probably did too - a long time ago. I think most of the agents on the street - the tips of the spear - are very sharp. It is the dullards in the bureaucracies that make the spear, well, dull.
And therein lies a major part of the problem. We as a country expect results from our intelligence community, but at the same time hamstring them in the methods they are allowed to use to produce results. We want accurate intelligence, but nobody wants to get their hands dirty.
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No, I'm thinking if you figured it out then they probably did too - a long time ago. I think most of the agents on the street - the tips of the spear - are very sharp. It is the dullards in the bureaucracies that make the spear, well, dull.
I agree with you, Pathfinder.
I have a good friend that I have known since around the third grade who is a field agent with the FBI. He's always been pretty sharp. We stay in touch regularly and he came home for Christmas a few years ago and we were discussing his current 'at the time' assignment. He had just transferred to Virginia and was working in the anti-terrorism section of the Bureau. His job was to prepare the daily assessment for his boss to hand to Mr. Bush every morning at the 'alphabet' briefing. He was privileged to 'eyes only' information, so I didn't even bother to ask what was in the reports. I knew he couldn't tell me straight out. He did allow that if the citizens saw the info that he saw, in the media, it could cause panic because 'we' don't know even half of what is going on in the anti-terrorism world.
I said all that to say this, this is a different world than fifty years ago.... by a long shot. As I said before, the 'rules' have changed. We have to 'fight the fight we're faced with' and sometimes that means 'by any means necessary' to get the job done and keep Americans from future harm. I sleep better at night knowing that there are people out there capable of doing that.
We have two choices when dealing with terrorists.....
Give it back to 'em harder than they give it to us, or cower in the corner like rats in a sewer.
Now, back to the waterboarding............ I'll still bring the buckets.
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"PS For anybody who thinks I'm an idealistic idiot (yes you Tom) bear in mind that the Nazis summarily executed or worse, captured Sovs. Our guys, and the Brits were generally, though not always, treated ok (for very large values of ok, but still a lot better than the alternative). This was in part motivated by racial ideology, but also because they knew we were treating their guys decently. And this was from the folks that brought you Auschwitz.
FQ13"
More selective history, The treatment received by Soviet POWs was a direct result of the actions of Stalin, Commisars were shot out of hand, the starvation suffered by Soviet POWs was because STALIN would not allow them to recieve red cross packages, US and British POWs were supplying their guards with chocolate and cigarettes they could not get outside the camps. Your asinine excuse that it will cause poor treatment of US prisoners fails to take into account treatment received from the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Arabs over the last 68 years.
Waterboarding ain't shit. In Belfast and Beirut they had some neat tricks with a Black and Decker, (Belfast Hospitals are the best in the world at rebuilding kneecaps ), I could break most people with just a wall, a pail (empty) and a length of broom handle.
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......I could break most people with just a wall, a pail (empty) and a length of broom handle.
Tease! ;D
But really, if you did care to elaborate.................
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I don't want to appear too biased but I repeat, the rest of the world can BITE me!
Thomas, do you need a second? ;D
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so now the question is, at what point is it not worth one american life?
If it had not worked. While some of you are sounding kind of soft here I'll point out that 1911 is right you compare intel from several sources. While it may or may not be true that torture gets bad intel, BG's knowing you have it in the tool box will get you better intel without using it. But in that case you MUST occasionally torture the hell out of some one just to remind every one else.
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Tease! ;D
But really, if you did care to elaborate.................
The "Stress positions" used by the Brits on IRA suspects,
1) Suspect "assumes the position" as if being frisked, you put the bucket over his head, then kick his feet out further and wider apart, this puts most of their weight on their hands and arms, wallop pail at random intervals.
2) Suspect kneels on floor with broomstick behind knees
This is the one the IRA and Shiites used, it has also been included in Al Queda training manuals
3) Using a battery powered drill and 1/2-3/4 inch Spade bit, drill through knee caps elbows and other joints.
4) Isolation, Keep the suspect isolated in a confined space with no access to the out side, keep them awake and feed them at random times, play tapes of someone screaming their toenails out in the next room, continue for at least 72 hours.
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The "Stress positions" used by the Brits on IRA suspects,
1) Suspect "assumes the position" as if being frisked, you put the bucket over his head, then kick his feet out further and wider apart, this puts most of their weight on their hands and arms, wallop pail at random intervals.
2) Suspect kneels on floor with broomstick behind knees
This is the one the IRA and Shiites used, it has also been included in Al Queda training manuals
3) Using a battery powered drill and 1/2-3/4 inch Spade bit, drill through knee caps elbows and other joints.
4) Isolation, Keep the suspect isolated in a confined space with no access to the out side, keep them awake and feed them at random times, play tapes of someone screaming their toenails out in the next room, continue for at least 72 hours.
Now that IS a permanent, debilitating technique. Review the arrests made at Duke University Sigma Phi Epsilon frat for their hazing or hell week. Newbies ate feces, were sleep deprived, performed hard labor, cattle prodded to various parts of the anatomy, and sodomized. IMHO I'll take the waterboarding, or pail over the head, beat me up, just not that,....
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Somehow, I think I mentioned that that's not the point. Its about reciprocity. If you would call it torture if it were done to Jessica Lynch, don't do it! Why do you not get that?
FQ13
PS For anybody who thinks I'm an idealistic idiot (yes you Tom) bear in mind that the Nazis summarily executed or worse, captured Sovs. Our guys, and the Brits were generally, though not always, treated ok (for very large values of ok, but still a lot better than the alternative). This was in part motivated by racial ideology, but also because they knew we were treating their guys decently. And this was from the folks that brought you Auschwitz.
FQ13
They do worse to their own people, so quit trying to foist that socialist bullshit off on us. to many are Veterans who are willing to tell you , "Your full of crap".
FQ has obviously never been active duty Military. If I thought it would save American lives I would not hesitate to shoot one prisoner before questioning another, or take out his eyeball to make him "see it my way", and that would be to protect STRANGERS.
By the way FQ, I don't think you are "idealistic" I just think your an rose tinted ignorant ass.
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Now that IS a permanent, debilitating technique. Review the arrests made at Duke University Sigma Phi Epsilon frat for their hazing or hell week. Newbies ate feces, were sleep deprived, performed hard labor, cattle prodded to various parts of the anatomy, and sodomized. IMHO I'll take the waterboarding, or pail over the head, beat me up, just not that,....
You know...that's wanting to be a part of something too much. Eating ^)^%R and getting sodomized.....would close a guy's eyes around here.
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You know...that's wanting to be a part of something too much. Eating ^)^%R and getting sodomized.....would close a guy's eyes around here.
You got that right....I ain't EVER wanted to be a part of ANYTHING anywhere CLOSE to THAT much.
Something like that would call for a trip to wally world for a "disposable" weapon and ammo in my book.