The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: kdcarlso on May 27, 2009, 11:37:41 AM
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Is there any real-life information on how the FN 5.7 round performs in a self defense situation? Is this a round worth looking at for that purpose or is it too small?
Thanks..
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OK, I'll bite...
1) Only one handgun that accepts this cartridge.....the FN Five-seveN
2) Finding ammunition is questionable...
3) Velocity is very high but mass is very low...not neccessarily a good thing in close quarters.
4) Most BG are not going to be wearing body armour in most instances......they tend to be rather squishy and soft... ;D
I would never consider this a true "self defense" caliber....
Great for prairie dogs though!
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Ballistically the 5.7 is very similar to the 22 WMR. The SS195 contains a 28 gr projectile which attains a velocity of 2132 fps in the rifle, 1890 fps in the pistol. Federals 22 WMR Game-Shok - 30 grain JHP; MV 2200 fps (rifle), MV 1610 fps (pistol).
It will not penetrate a level IIA Kevlar vest, or Spectra vests.
Duty rounds are mandated for military and law enforcement use only. They will penetrate level IIA but not Level IIIA Kevlar vests.
Tests by Dr. Gary K Roberts showed a penetration of 12 inches in 10% Ballistic gelatin with duty rounds.
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product1209.html
That is why the Star Gate team has such trouble killing Jaffa with their P90s
;D
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Ballistically the 5.7 is very similar to the 22 WMR. The SS195 contains a 28 gr projectile which attains a velocity of 2132 fps in the rifle, 1890 fps in the pistol. Federals 22 WMR Game-Shok - 30 grain JHP; MV 2200 fps (rifle), MV 1610 fps (pistol).
It will not penetrate a level IIA Kevlar vest, or Spectra vests.
Duty rounds are mandated for military and law enforcement use only. They will penetrate level IIA but not Level IIIA Kevlar vests.
Tests by Dr. Gary K Roberts showed a penetration of 12 inches in 10% Ballistic gelatin with duty rounds.
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product1209.html
That is why the Star Gate team has such trouble killing Jaffa with their P90s
;D
Now that right there is empirical proof! ;D
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I thought it would have "knock down" issues but when discussing with a friend I was told the secret service is using it so it must work. I don't know this to be true and my thinking was that since I live in the suburbs that it would be similar to a .223 in that it would not tend to go through many walls. I was hoping someone would have knowledge of military, police or self defense shootings and what the results were.
Thanks for the comments..
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According to the CEO of Sig Sauer, the US Secret Service uses the Sig ...
http://www.americanexecutive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6862
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There's a couple of Secret Service guys that come to the Lead Free Championship Match in July. I don't recall them mentioning this in the past but I'll double check with them this year(if I remember).
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OK, I'll bite...
1) Only one handgun that accepts this cartridge.....the FN Five-seveN
2) Finding ammunition is questionable...
3) Velocity is very high but mass is very low...not neccessarily a good thing in close quarters.
4) Most BG are not going to be wearing body armour in most instances......they tend to be rather squishy and soft... ;D
I would never consider this a true "self defense" caliber....
Great for prairie dogs though!
Although I have no direct experience with it, I've always seen it a more of an offensive round. Its seems its meant to penetrate armor, walls, and vehicles, with a large capacity mag, not hit someone as hard as possible, but rather defeat someones defensive measures at greater than standard pistol range. Given that assumption, understand its only my opinion, I'd say that looking at likely self defense situations you would be better served with a conventional pistol caliber, if you need capacity go with 9mm, if you would prefer greater knockdown get a .45 ACP.
Its not that 5.7's to small, it seems to me that the caliber is meant for other purposes. But if that's the gun you have, by all means it'll work. If your still looking to buy, I my opinion, there are better options, but that requires you asking yourself alot of different questions.
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Same diameter bullet as the 5.56/.223 with lighter weight. It's my primary home defense round specifically because it is, I believe, effective and will not overpenetrate walls like the 9mm, .40, .45, etc. and other rounds will. The safety of my children is of paramount concern for me, the deciding factor is intrinsically providing for their safety as innocents and still being able to get the job done as necessary. The round makes nasty wounds in varmints inside 20 yards....animals, though with with less bone mass than humans, being tougher than humans I can't see the round being the least ineffective for home defense.
Maybe it's mystique, but around the range I hang out at it's known as a very effective round in the context of short range use. The research I performed on actual use was sufficient for me to be comfortable with the round. And, at 50 for $20 it's a cheaper alternative than premium self-defense rounds in other pistol calibers.
The 22 mag slow powder burn can't generate 1900+ fps from a short barrel like the 5.7, so the comparison of the two is not an apples to apples comparison. Being a rimless case, magazine (got it right, eh Haz!) feed issues are non-existent. Weapons to chamber it in...the FN Five Seven and PS-90....are both expensive and not easy to find. For such a "rare" round and base of firearms they sure sell a lot of that ammo in the gun shops around town. After a 1000 rounds downrange, neither the Five SeveN pistol or PS-90 have ever had a malfunction.
Low recoil makes it, in my opinion, a very effective tool for women. My wife has it on her side of the bed....and recognizes that a pistol is meant to get you to your rifle..which in her case is a PS-90 in 5.7.
Mr. Pincus and/or Mr. Janich, in your considerate opinions, is the 5.7 x 28 an effective round for home defense?
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I was told the Secret Service was carrying the 5.7 rifle by a dealer at a gun show that was trying to talk me into buying one. Looking back I wish I would have purchased it cause the price for them has gone up over $500. Ammo I think would be difficult to find. I have not seen it since that same gun show last year.
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I was thinking along the same lines as RASTUS and was hoping someone had direct knowledge of it's use and could chime in. I do appreciate the opinions that bigger is more effective and follow it when practical. It's just with a move into a more suburban environment and a house layout that makes penetrating walls more of a concern I'm looking at options. I've wanted a PS90 for a while but if I'm spending that kind of money I'd like something that I can use for more than just plinking and varmints.. At least it would making it easier to justify to the wife :)
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Go to http://www.guntalk.com/site3.php and listen to the podcasts with FN reps. You will have to search through to find them, work backwards they have some good info.
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I have nothing but "3rd hand at best" info about the 5.7... but I do have reliable reports that the 4.6mm round from H&K is performing well at close ranges.
-RJP
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Thanks for the input.. Love the show and I'm looking forward to the next season.
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I was told the Secret Service was carrying the 5.7 rifle by a dealer at a gun show that was trying to talk me into buying one. Looking back I wish I would have purchased it cause the price for them has gone up over $500. Ammo I think would be difficult to find. I have not seen it since that same gun show last year.
The p90 would actually be a great tool for that app. much better then say a MP5.
small size, high cap( 50 rounds) light wieght, low recoil, good AP... sounds like a good "protection" gun.( protecting others, not yourself.)
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I have nothing but "3rd hand at best" info about the 5.7... but I do have reliable reports that the 4.6mm round from H&K is performing well at close ranges.
-RJP
I would assume that both would be effective. The velocities reached by these rounds would be in the range of rifles...and that can change some wound ballistics dramatically. Both are in the 2100+ FPS range.....which would produce some drastic temporary cavity wounds. You can view a little info on that here: http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html Now if we can just get a 9mm or .40 to reach the 2000 fps mark, then we have a definite keeper as a self defense handgun!
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Now if we can just get a 9mm or .40 to reach the 2000 fps mark, then we have a definite keeper as a self defense handgun!
The problem with a 9mm or a .40 pistol reaching the 2000 fps mark would be making the second shot, as your wrist would be touching your elbow. :o
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Sorry for getting slightly off track, but if velocity in a handgun is what you want, wouldn't a 357 Sig be a good choice??
I have been looking into getting one of those as I have read good things about that caliber. I only brought it up because you mentioned 9 and 40 handguns. :)
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The FN PS90 must be a pretty good weapon with adequate lethality. The military has adopted it as the weapon of choice for support personnel. That would also imply that it is easy to master.
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Magnum said:
wouldn't a 357 Sig be a good choice??
Hard ammo to find and expensive.
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Magnum said:
Hard ammo to find and expensive.
That's what they say...but I seem to find it anywhere but Wal Mart. $19.50 to $22 a box for 50 rounds....not bad for premium defensive ammo.
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Here is a write up of the 5.7 in Conceal Carry Magazine. They did some penetration tests on conventional body armor. Some issues, FN recommended no carry with one in chamber ??? . Think I will stick with my .40 S&W or .45 ACP:
http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/members/1217print.cfm (http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/members/1217print.cfm)
Gun Review: FNH FiveSeveN
Diane Walls
The Truth About the New Caliber on the Block
FNH-USA (Fabrique Nationale Herstal) recently introduced a new caliber to the commercial market that has been gaining a foothold among military and law enforcement personnel for awhile. This cartridge, in 5.7 x 28 mm, was designed to be light and fast for the type of modern combat that today's armed forces encounter in the urban arena. FNH designed a carbine, the PS90, and a pistol, the FiveSeveN, to fire the same 5.7mm round. Commonality of ammunition type can reduce the amount of gear the operator has to carry when these two weapons are deployed together. Positive feedback from military and law enforcement circles compelled FNH-USA to expand the market for these two guns to civilians.
As with anything new that comes from the military market, the FiveSeveN pistol came with a somewhat exaggerated reputation. Much buzz was generated on the internet about a pistol that had the ballistics of a rifle and could slice through body armor. It was suggested by some that this should never be offered to the general gun-owning public. Naturally, when I heard this, I absolutely had to get my hands on one and see what all the fuss was about. FNH-USA obligingly sent me one for testing and evaluation.
One of the first things I noticed about my FiveSeveN FDE when it arrived was all the polymer. It feels very light in the hand. The frame is synthetic, except for parts that must be metal: the internal hammer and assembly, extractor and ejector, and the parts that marry the frame to the slide. The slide is steel, of course, but wrapped in a matte black polymer jacket. It looks very modern, the military influence obvious.
In deference to the harsh conditions to which a military sidearm will be subjected in today's battlefield conditions, FNH went with a simple delayed blowback operating system. They also treated the hammer forged barrel with a hard chrome bore finish for long life. When field stripped, there is only the barrel with its captured recoil spring, the frame and the slide. There are no loose springs or pieces to lose track of,. A light lubrication is all that is required to keep the gun operating. With only the lightest film of lube on the slide rails, at no time during my testing did the FiveSeveN fail to feed or extract
Field stripping is easily accomplished. The hammer needs to be cocked in order for the take-down lever to remain in the rearward position and allow the frame and slide to come apart. The owner's manual never specifies this point in the disassembly instructions, only that the hammer must be cocked to re-assemble the pistol. The barrel and spring are easily removed. The gun comes with a cleaning kit which includes a take-apart brass rod, chamber and bore brushes and a brass slotted tip. All of these components store neatly in the handle of the rod in a compact case that is easily stowed in a pocket, range bag or on a belt for convenient access anywhere.
The FiveSeveN is a full-size gun designed to be worn as a working sidearm for military and police and not necessarily as a concealed carry piece. The grip is wide in order to accommodate the double-stacked 20-round magazines it uses. While this necessitates an offset hold for a small handed shooter such as myself, it isn't large to the point of being difficult to handle. The controls on the FiveSeveN are easy to access. The manual safety is positioned just where, with the gun in the hand, the trigger finger would rest when properly indexed on the frame. It uses the common up for safe, down for fire system. A red oval shows when the gun is ready to fire. The magazine release is set into the frame where it can be easily reached with the thumb without breaking one's hold, yet still out of the way enough not to be accidentally pressed during firing. This control is reversible from right to left handed configuration with a tool that comes with the gun. I found the magazine release on my sample to be very stiff and slow. Everyone who tried it with me agreed that this is a point of annoyance at best, and a hazard at worst if a quick reload is required.
Another safety feature of the FiveSeveN is a magazine disconnect. Though this feature could be a lifesaver for a soldier or policeman if somebody is trying to take the weapon away from them, I find it more trouble than benefit for civilian concealed carry. I have always found these annoying for training, as I'm a firm believer in carefully ritualized dryfire both on the range when learning a new skill and at home to practice skills and stay sharp. Most range officers get a bit nervous when they see a magazine in a gun during a dryfire portion of a class. I found that with some practice, I could reset the action on the FiveSeveN for dryfire with a partial stroke of the slide. There is a half-lock point with an empty magazine in the gun that I kept hanging up on. When the magazine was released, the slide would snap forward from this position on its own in a rather startling manner. Thank goodness I didn't have any parts of my hand too close to the chamber when this occurred! When the slide is locked fully back with an empty magazine, the magazine must be released, at least partially, before either the slide-lock can be used or the slide racked and released.
As is the case with many semi-automatic pistols on the market today, the FiveSeveN has the added safety device of a loaded chamber indicator. On this gun, it is a small, bright, silver-colored metal pin that protrudes slightly from the top of the slide when a round is in the chamber. It contrasts with the slide's matte black polymer jacket pretty well, but is not big enough to be very eye-catching. It is, however, easy to feel with the hand and would be useful in low light conditions. The manufacturer recommends that the FiveSeveN not be carried with a round in the chamber, as the gun may not be drop safe, so this is a good little safety extra to have.
I didn't think FNH would appreciate me doing an official drop test, in which I actually dropped the gun on a hard surface from a prescribed height to see if it would discharge. I didn't have the facilities available to safely do so in any case. But when the manufacturer warns against carry with a round in chamber, it behooves the serious practitioner of concealed carry and defensive shooting to carefully consider the risks before carrying a firearm that is not drop safe.
The FiveSeveN comes with 3-dot combat sights. The factory will install sights with tritium inserts upon request. The rear sight is fully adjustable for both windage and elevation with a sight adjustment wrench that comes with the gun. Adjustment is easily accomplished, making the sighting-in process simple. I set off to the range to see what it would do.
One of the first orders of business was to see for myself whether this gun could really penetrate body armor with the rounds available on the commercial market. FNH sent me a quantity of 28 grain hollowpoint lead free rounds, rated at 1890 feet per second muzzle velocity, and I bought some of their 40 grain sporting loads, rated at 1650 feet per second muzzle velocity. To get a vest for testing, I asked a friend in my local police department, who was one of the officers in charge of putting on our Citizen's Police Academy, if he might be interested in a demonstration for the class on their range day. He cheerfully let me tag along and provided one of his old level three vests. Our test was less than scientific and therefore inconclusive on the half of the vest we shot. He gave me the vest to play with. I chatted with one of the other officers in charge of the range day who had been an instructor with the Washington State Police Academy and was familiar with the FiveSeveN. He told me how they tested guns for penetration in the academy by placing the vest over a thick stack of cardboard targets. They had tested the FiveSeveN several times, and were unable to penetrate a vest with it.
I decided to try the test again with some backing that would at least somewhat simulate the force absorption qualities of a body behind the vest. I tightly bundled about 3-4 inches worth of glossy paper catalogs and strapped these to a steel silhouette target. I fastened the vest over this. I fired two rounds each of the 28 grain and 40 grain loads into the vest.
None of the rounds penetrated. The 40 grain loads didn't leave any impact damage on the backing at all. The 28 grain loads went deeper, in part because they hit the vest closer together than I wanted to place them. Even so, they didn't go through, and left impact damage to about 1.5 to 2 inches. I did a little research online to see what other testers had discovered about the 5.7 mm. round. In wood, ballistic gelatin and clay, it penetrated in the ranges of other pistol rounds tested. So much for the FiveSeveN's reputation as a cop killer. It's no worse than anything else out there. Another myth has been busted.
I called some of my shooting buddies to come out with me and test the FiveSeveN. Even though it was an unusually cold spring day, with everything from sunshine to hail and snow, we had a good time. The FiveSeveN is very pleasant to shoot. The 5.7 mm. rounds generate almost no recoil, and fast, accurate shots are easy. Though the gun is large, and all of us had to shoot it in an offset grip, it pointed well and naturally, even in low light conditions.
The double-action only trigger breaks cleanly after light take-up and a little bit of staging movement. My sample gauged out consistently for me at 5.5 pounds pressure on the trigger. Reset on the FiveSeveN is clean, and both tactilely and audibly distinct. Unlike most double-action only firearms, this one uses an internal hammer rather than a striker to actuate the firing pin. The consistent feel of each trigger stroke, though, is like its striker-fired brethren.
After we'd played on the falling steel range and in the darkhouse, I asked my good friend, Don Stahlnecker, if he would replicate the 25 yard work my husband and I had done early in the pistol's break-in period. Don, who has an uncannily steady hand, agreed. Since we were working with such a fast round, we also decided to see what we could do with the FiveSeveN at 50 and 100 yards,. All distance work was done with the shooter seated and the gun rested on a sandbag or benchrest. The initial groups I had shot ranged from 2.5 to 5 inches at 25 yards with the 28 grain rounds. Don's groups also went as large as 5 inches, though he had one as good as 1.5 inches for five shots with the light rounds. The 40 grain rounds had also grouped for him at around 2.5 to 5 inches. In light of its close-range accuracy, we had expected better, more consistent performance. At 50 yards, Don kept his shots 90 percent within the C-zone or better on an IPSC silhouette target. The rounds shot so flat that almost no adjustment in sight picture was required out to 100 yards, where all the rounds stayed on the silhouette.
The FiveSeveN performed well for the combat pistol it was designed to be. It's a well-made gun and very user friendly. It's easy to see why the light weight and high capacity magazines of the FiveSeveN would make it an attractive choice for military and law enforcement personnel, especially with the availability of the companion carbine in the same chambering.
For those of us in the commercial market, the FiveSeveN would be a nice gun for training in high round count classes. Anyone challenged with hand strength issues, or who can't tolerate recoil well enough to enjoy training with firearms would find this gun to be a pleasant alternative that packs more punch than a .22 caliber. For self defense, it makes up for its light payload with high velocity and controllability that allows rapid multiple shots.
In my opinion, the major downside issues with the FiveSeveN would be its large frame that's not conducive to the ease of concealment civilians require, and the prohibitive cost, and limited types of ammunition currently available for it. If it becomes better established in the commercial market, a wider variety of ammo will become available as major manufacturers see a demand for it. Perhaps FNH would see fit to offer the FiveSeveN in a smaller, more concealable version in the future. For now, however, these two factors could keep this gun from gaining much momentum outside military and law enforcement circles.
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Diane Walls is a longtime martial artist and shooter. She is on staff at Firearms Academy of Seattle as an assistant instructor for handgun and women's programs. Her articles have appeared in Women & Guns Magazine.
FiveSeveN with included kit--The FiveSeveN comes with three, 10 or 20 round magazines, sight adjustment tool, magazine release switching tool and easy-store cleaning kit.
Credits:
FNH-USA Commercial and Law Enforcement Sales
McLean, VA
(703) 288-1292
E-mail: info@fnhusa.com
Thanks to:
The Gun Shop
Longview, WA
(360) 636-1230
e-mail: thegunshop@comcast.net
Kelso Police Department
Sgt. Khembar Yund & Officer Kirk Wiper
For all their help on the ballistic vest test.
Gila Hayes and Firearms Academy of Seattle
www.firearmsacademy.com
For use of equipment & ranges as well as expert advice
Kathy Jackson and Donald Stahlnecker
For their camera work, companionship and expert opinions
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The more I've read about the Fiveseven, P90, and 5.7, the less I like it. But I guess you got to test it for yourself.
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Here is a write up of the 5.7 in Conceal Carry Magazine. They did some penetration tests on conventional body armor. Some issues, FN recommended no carry with one in chamber ??? . Think I will stick with my .40 S&W or .45 ACP:
The body armor stories/legends out today are outrageous....with the standard fare that's available. The black tip A/P ammo that does pierce body armor is illegal to purchase unless made before 1990 something when the ban went into effect. It's still my primary weapon in the home because of it's overpenetration qualities....I don't want a round to go through a few walls and strike one of my children. The recoil is so light that it'll be easy to fire follow-up shots on target if needed to stop a threat...the 40 or the 45 would be my choice of caliber without youngsters in the home...if I didn't have a couple of 10MMs with full-power roundhouse loads. ;D
The happy thing about firearms...they are tools and we all get to select what we need for the situation(s) for which we believe we will need them. This is the "Golden Age" of the firearm...everything is pretty much high quality and "light-years" ahead of what was available 25 years ago.
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The more I've read about the Fiveseven, P90, and 5.7, the less I like it. But I guess you got to test it for yourself.
The more I read about the 5.7 round, the more I think it's an effective round....in the P90/PS90. Seems to have the same effectiveness up close as the 5.56 NATO round does at 200yds...which isn't a bad thing. But it seems lacking when fired from the Five-Seven pistol. Just not enough barrel length to get effective velocity and performance.
Then again....a reloadable .22MAG that accepts a variety of .223" bullets and can cycle reliably through semi-auto pistols isn't a bad thing either. I'm hoping that Ruger gets on board and makes a few guns for the round.....maybe a Single-Six/medium Blackhawk SA revolver....and a 10/22 or Charger....maybe even a Mk III... ;D
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Draw your own conclusions.
4.6, 5.7, 30 Carbine
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/4.6x30mm%2C_5.7x28mm%2C_.30_M1_Carbine.jpg)
.30 Carbine: Tried, and tested true @ Omaha beach, Normandy, Bastogne, exc.
(http://www.olive-drab.com/images/firearms_carbine_ranger.jpg)
Though... 5.7 mm = 0.224409 ", making it as said here before. "an expensive, yet reloadable .22 magnum". Kinda cool.
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.30 carbine is weak and ineffective round.
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.30 carbine is weak and ineffective round.
But the M-2 rocks.
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Until I saw this I had no idea anything out there fired .30 carbine but the old M1, & M2 rifles. VERY COOL!
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm
.30 carbine - 1972 fps from a 7.5" barrel, with a 85 grain bullet.
5.7 - 1950 fps from a 10" barrel, with a 40 grain bullet.
+1 on the M2. And how bad do you want one after watching "Band of Brothers"!?!
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How do you express your fondness of being photographed without interupting what your doing? ;D
(http://www.olive-drab.com/images/firearms_carbine_ranger.jpg)
I'm glad we won the war, if not just for this guy alone. ;D ;D ;D Another one for "Firearms Hero's".
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Until I saw this I had no idea anything out there fired .30 carbine but the old M1, & M2 rifles. VERY COOL!
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm
.30 carbine - 1972 fps from a 7.5" barrel, with a 85 grain bullet.
5.7 - 1950 fps from a 10" barrel, with a 40 grain bullet.
+1 on the M2. And how bad do you want one after watching "Band of Brothers"!?!
There was also the AMT automag III
http://dailygunpictures.blogspot.com/2009/04/amt-automag-iii-fires-30-caliber.html
M-1 Carbine is a sweet little rifle, .30 Carbine round is underpowered POS
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Good find on the Automag! Looks like Hi-Standard is making them for MSRP $500.00
http://pistolbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1245487561
Pretty cool, but kind of a monsterous looking thing. I believe I'd lean toward the Blackhawk.
I agree on .30 carbine being underpowered for use as an assault weapon. But it IS throwing at least twice as big a bullet as the 5.7 at the same velocity (slightly higher if we're being picky).
Looking at the roll of the .22 magnum through history (& yes I love this round enough that I bought my second bolt rifle of this caliber 2 weeks ago), I believe its main use was for stuff like hunting rabbits, squirrel, coon, ground hogs, even fox's & coyotes under 200 yards, sort of stuff I've always used mine for anyway. Ballistically speaking the 5.7 is nearly indestiguishable from .22 magnum. Where's the confusion on its applications?
The "nich" for this caliber would be that it's new. It's reloadable. And for two - three times the cost you get slightly better reliability with it being center-fire (I cant remember ever having a .22 magnum fail to fire in the 25 years I've used them, but I've never had a semi-auto). :-\
5.7's kinda like the new fat girl in the room. They need love to. ;D
I've already got .22's, & a Pink Panther, so she's all yours!
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Good find on the Automag! Looks like Hi-Standard is making them for MSRP $500.00
http://pistolbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1245487561
Pretty cool, but kind of a monsterous looking thing. I believe I'd lean toward the Blackhawk.
I agree on .30 carbine being underpowered for use as an assault weapon. But it IS throwing at least twice as big a bullet as the 5.7 at the same velocity (slightly higher if we're being picky).
Looking at the roll of the .22 magnum through history (& yes I love this round enough that I bought my second bolt rifle of this caliber 2 weeks ago), I believe its main use was for stuff like hunting rabbits, squirrel, coon, ground hogs, even fox's & coyotes under 200 yards, sort of stuff I've always used mine for anyway. Ballistically speaking the 5.7 is nearly indestiguishable from .22 magnum. Where's the confusion on its applications?
The "nich" for this caliber would be that it's new. It's reloadable. And for two - three times the cost you get slightly better reliability with it being center-fire (I cant remember ever having a .22 magnum fail to fire in the 25 years I've used them, but I've never had a semi-auto). :-\
5.7's kinda like the new fat girl in the room. They need love to. ;D
I've already got .22's, & a Pink Panther, so she's all yours!
Hi-Standard has the AMT Automag III listed but no price so I don't know if they are actually in production. Would really like one of these!
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http://www.gunsamerica.com/953076254/Guns/Pistols/Auto-Mag-Pistols/AMT_Automag_III_30carbine.htm
Higher than their MSRP new... But their out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaeZjKbly4A
These guys show an even lower MSRP. http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DB-Handgun-Detail.asp?ID=2341
Would be a fun one to own!
The blackhawk in stock for under 4 bills. http://www.sportingarms.com/results.asp?mfr_name=0&category_descr=0&subcategory_descr=85&keyword_descr=&max_price=&quick_submit=FIND+FIREARMS
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To expand on the .22 mag comparison.
http://www.excelarms.com/acceleratorpistol.html Neat!
http://www.excelarms.com/acceleratorrifle.html Also neat!
CCI
Varmint/Predator Hunting
Maxi-Mag +V - 30 grain GLHP; MV 2200 fps (rifle), MV 1610 fps (pistol).
Maxi-Mag TNT - 30 grain JHP; MV 2200 fps (rifle), MV 1610 fps (pistol).
Maxi-Mag - 40 grain JHP; MV 1875 fps (rifle), MV 1425 fps (pistol).
Plinking/Practice
Maxi-Mag - 40 grain TMJ; MV 1875 fps (rifle), MV 1425 fps (pistol).
The data I saw on the 5.7 was 40 grain from p90 1980 fps, from five seven 1650 fps
Slight differances due to barrel lengths between rifles used. And the same applies to the pistols used.
I like the 5.7 caliber, & the P90, Outside being the "latest, newest widget in the magazines", I'm just not seeing anything there though. Will it go the way of its predicessors, 10mm, .35 whelen, 45GAP, .41 mag? Time will tell. I think you can still get ammo for all of them anyway. None of them were necessarily "bad" either.
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According to the CEO of Sig Sauer, the US Secret Service uses the Sig ...
http://www.americanexecutive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6862
Spoke with a Secret Service guy this weekend. He said that a few guys use the 5.7 but they are trying to get rid of them.
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I like the 5.7 over the 22 mag for it's bullet versatility and because it has an edge on performance over the 22 mag. I think it would be a really great cartridge for the semi-auto hunting rifle...but all I have is the PS-90 which isn't. There is at least one aftermarket ammo maker pushing these things up to 2,600 FPS (UltraRapTOR http://eliteammunition.com/catView.php#cat1 (http://eliteammunition.com/catView.php#cat1) ) from the Five seveN pistol barrel and more from the PS-90. At 2,600 FPS you are in the 17 HMR ceiling area with the accompanying outstanding ballistics...which is why I say a modified 10/22 type of firearm would be idea....speed with a bullet twice as heavy as the 17 would be great for some hunting applications.
And..oh yeah..jeez guy, the 10MM is having a resurgence now...but then that may just be because there was some ammo availability for 10. ;) We need a 10MM chant about this time...somebody come up with a jingle or something for the 10 MM...
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;) We need a 10MM chant about this time...somebody come up with a jingle or something for the 10 MM...
Once again it's time for the 10
Everything old is new again.
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Once again it's time for the 10
Everything old is new again.
Wouldn't mind seeing some .41 Magnums, won't really happen, as semi-autos are the "rage". There was "something about it..
S&W still makes them.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/G160230.jpg)
Great article about the history, loads, ballistics, and maybe even a "do over" of the .41
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_51/ai_n11840297/
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10mm IS a cool round! Disapointing it hasnt become more popular. If manufactures could get a defense contract or something to make it more trendy thats all it'd take. GI Joe wannabee's would create demand, and it could have dozens of different rounds available in no time.
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I have a retired military friend in Alaska that still has a lot of ties and connections to the military. They wanted to test a 5.7 and they were also having a pig roast. Well they put an old body armor vest on a pig and used some of the restricted military rounds. It passed through the vest, through the pig, and through the other side of the vest. The pig didn't know what hit it. They had a great bar-b-que.
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Sorry for getting slightly off track, but if velocity in a handgun is what you want, wouldn't a 357 Sig be a good choice??
I have been looking into getting one of those as I have read good things about that caliber. I only brought it up because you mentioned 9 and 40 handguns. :)
.357 should only need a barrel swap with a .40 cal. Everything else should be the same including the magazines.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Remington_Jet
5.7 of yesteryear. It was a flash in the pan then to. Better marketing today helped it a little. Maybe next time it can be the "40 Grain Go Gitter". Or Cerberus can re-introduce it in 2030 as a "Dodge Stealth" ;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Remington_Jet
5.7 of yesteryear. It was a flash in the pan then to. Better marketing today helped it a little. Maybe next time it can be the "40 Grain Go Gitter". Or Cerberus can re-introduce it in 2030 as a "Dodge Stealth" ;)
Nice to see the old avatar back Badge. 8)
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Lord Humungous can not be denied! ;)
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Once again it's time for the 10
Everything old is new again.
Good attempt. Maybe we'll just have to wait on the Fortis to show up...
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Let me just pop into this with a comment on the .30 Carbine. A few years ago I went out and talked to a bunch of guys, including NYPD legend Jim Cirillo, who had shot other guys with a .30 Carbine. None of them had any problems with the round at all. Bad round to assault a machinegun nest in Germany, not a bad round for whacking bad guys in urban areas...
Michael B
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Let me just pop into this with a comment on the .30 Carbine. A few years ago I went out and talked to a bunch of guys, including NYPD legend Jim Cirillo, who had shot other guys with a .30 Carbine. None of them had any problems with the round at all. Bad round to assault a machinegun nest in Germany, not a bad round for whacking bad guys in urban areas...
Michael B
It may have been fine but there is so much better stuff now. It was DESIGNED to be better than nothing. I love the Carbine, I'm not interested in caliber that is "better than nothing".
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Kid, Rastus and others,
Go ahead and chant, rant and rave for your 10mm's. I've had one, and I have .40's. However, I think I'll keep bangin away with my 11.5 mm ;D
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It may have been fine but there is so much better stuff now. It was DESIGNED to be better than nothing. I love the Carbine, I'm not interested in caliber that is "better than nothing".
The .30Carbine was designed to be "better" than the .45ACP FMJ as fired from the 1911 pistol....and it was. The problems came up when everyone expected it to be as effective as the .30-06 M1 Garand....and it just doesn't have that kind of legs.
I'm still amazed that the US military didn't develop it further as a submachine gun round. While the Europeans were playing with the 9mm, we could have had a subgun with a lot more punch... 8)
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Kid, Rastus and others,
Go ahead and chant, rant and rave for your 10mm's. I've had one, and I have .40's. However, I think I'll keep bangin away with my 11.5 mm ;D
Send me a picture ;) ....like you did of your current 4 wheeled lust. Talk about take the wind out of the sails on a guy. Geez...I didn't expect that...I expected something along those lines..but that one took me off guard and flattened me out. It was morbid...but hey, you are in that bidness and bidness can only be picking up over time, right?
I think I'll find that Charger/Challenger/Whatever post that the Pincus lusts over and post those pics you sent. If I don't, you should.
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Not to be too cold in light of the shooting at Ft Hood but....
I think it shows the lack of killing power in this round. Yes the BG did a lot of damage but frankly I think if he had used a larger caliber the death toll would be much higher.
JMHO
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On the contrary, Haz.....I think the Ft. Hood attack shows how effective the 5.7 is in a close-range situation...esp. when the shooter was engaging other shooters shooting at him. I doubt any pistol short of a Magnum-class caliber could have done any better....
I wonder if one of the unintended consequences of this event will be that more gunmakers will make 5.7 pistols.....say, a Glock 41 or Springfield XDm in 5.7?.....
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I'll take a 7.62 x 25 over this any time. (I am excluding mags per your post.)
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I was sitting at dinner last night and said : "I wonder which one of the internet guys will use this an example of how "ineffective" the 5.7 is... Completely missing the issues of capacity and recoil management that likely contributed to the high hit percentage and large number of wounded and dead in a short time."
You win, Haz.
I'm sure if he had a 1911 and (had to do 10 reloads) and manage recoil all 40 would be dead.... ::)
-RJP
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I'll take a 7.62 x 25 over this any time. (I am excluding mags per your post.)
Granted.....however, I'm not sure the 7.62 tumbles like the 5.7 is designed to do....but I wish there were some modern, double-stack 7.62 pistols, too.....
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Agree with Rob...my call would be that the gun was chosen for lower recoil and larger capacity (which, BTW, augers for long premeditation on the part of the shooter)...he brought along the .357 revolver to hurry himself along to his waiting virgins if the police response didn't do the trick.
mb
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In which case Rob, I guess we should all be carrying hiCap .22s for self defense. ::)
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Haz...hi-cap .22 MAGNUMS!
mb
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Haz...hi-cap .22 MAGNUMS!
mb
OK, I guess I'll trade in my larger caliber guns and get me the ultimate self defense weapon....
http://www.highstandard.com/
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Didn't we spend a entire thread ragging on BM for similar views ?
Since I'm not interested in mowing down large numbers of unarmed victims I'll stick with my .45 and .357.
Seriously, I think that the high number of wounded as opposed to the number killed should give people reason to pause when considering the 5.7 for self defense. From what I have heard, the lady Cop was hit 4 times and still returned effective fire. This is NOT the result I want when confronted by a BG in a life threatening situation. I want them to completely forget about being a threat and start begging me to call cops and ambulance if they are not DRT.
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Didn't we spend a entire thread ragging on BM for similar views ?
Since I'm not interested in mowing down large numbers of unarmed victims I'll stick with my .45 and .357.
Seriously, I think that the high number of wounded as opposed to the number killed should give people reason to pause when considering the 5.7 for self defense. From what I have heard, the lady Cop was hit 4 times and still returned effective fire. This is NOT the result I want when confronted by a BG in a life threatening situation. I want them to completely forget about being a threat and start begging me to call cops and ambulance if they are not DRT.
That's the point I was trying to make but RP missed it completely. Yes there was a lot of damage but most were still moving (even treating each others wounds). OK, you can shoot a bunch real quick, but if the rounds are having limited effect how good is it.
I was not trying to argue the point of how fast or accurate you can shoot it. Nor was I talking about capacity. I was talking about effectiveness. But RP was just chomping at the bit to make a snide remark from his lofty, 'superior knowledge' position.
And just in case you missed it, the title of this thread is "5.7 for SELF DEFENSE".
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Haz, no offense meant, brother!
mb
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Haz, no offense meant, brother!
mb
MB,
I took your post as a critique of WHY he chose his weapon, and I agree with it.
No offense ever felt.
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I'm interested to hear CombatDiver chime in on this one, I'm pretty sure he's got more experience in these matters than any one of us, including the management!
Personally, I agree with Haz!
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Not to be morbid, but I would very much like to know, what bullets were used, ball or hp, how did they perform, where were hits made in the bodies, was the officer wearing her vest? ( I hope so ), Did any of the bullets penetrate the vest if worn? Of those who died, where were the hits made? This is unfortunately the 1st real try out for the cartridge on any kind of measurable scale in real life.
I like big calibers as much as the next guy, but high capacity lets you stay in the fight longer, all things being equal. That's why #1 fighting pistol is the Glock 21 or 20 for me, but sometimes too big to carry on my person.
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The WSJ said this morning that she was hit twice in the left thigh and one went on into her right thigh. In my opinion Sgt Kimberly Munley may be a civilian police officer, but she is a true soldier in that she marched toward the sound of guns. She is a hero.
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The WSJ said this morning that she was hit twice in the left thigh and one went on into her right thigh. In my opinion Sgt Kimberly Munley may be a civilian police officer, but she is a true soldier in that she marched toward the sound of guns. She is a hero.
No Argument on THAT.
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The WSJ said this morning that she was hit twice in the left thigh and one went on into her right thigh. In my opinion Sgt Kimberly Munley may be a civilian police officer, but she is a true soldier in that she marched toward the sound of guns. She is a hero.
Damn straight.
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No Argument on THAT.
+2
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Don't mean to drift off, but does anyone know what caliber the BG was hit with by the Police???
He took four hits, and I was just curious. I realize there any MANY variables to these situations, but I was just curious about the calibers involved in this tragedy.
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No way to know and I'm sure it's not going to become public, but whatever that brave young woman was shooting, it wasn't enough! The POS is still alive!
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Probably a 9MM It was a Male officer arriving to back her up that actually brought down the BG in the linked article he says
"Todd said he fired his Beretta at Hasan. Hasan flinched, Todd said, then slid down against a telephone pole and fell on his back."
Since they are Army employees I would assume they are carrying M9's
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting_officers
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Just read an article - from the AP - that indicated her backup was using a Beretta, so 9mm.
Military base = military hardware? 9mm ball then. Just a guess.
Same article indicated the terrorist had a laser sight on the 5.7mm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting_officers (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting_officers)
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Munley is a civilian police officer with the Department of the Army and serves as a SWAT team member and firearms instructor for the department, Medley said. He said she joined the police force in January 2008 after serving in the Army.
Medley said the Army police department had been doing ‘active shooter training’ as a precautionary measure since the 2007 mass shooting at Virginia Tech University in which a student killed 32 others before taking his own life.
“When you have an active shooter hurting people, our protocol is to move to the threat and eliminate it. That takes some courage and skill,” he said. “If there was a person there to respond, Kim Munley is the one we would want to be there.”
Some of Munley’s training in how to respond to a mass shooting came from instructors from a Texas State University-San Marcos program called Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training.
The program, known as ALERRT, teaches police officers and first responders how to engage “active shooters,” gunmen whose only intention is to kill.
Commander Terry Nichols of the San Marcos Police Department, who is also an ALERRT instructor, said Munley was part of a group of U.S. Department of the Army police officers who were trained by ALERRT instructors in Killeen. He said Munley attended a class in San Marcos as well.
“First responders have to be ready to engage the shooter, that’s what she did,” Nichols said of Munley. “She almost sacrificed her life to save others.”
ALERRT has trained about 20,000 officers in building entry techniques and rescue and survival strategies, how to deal with explosive devices and in other methods to take on active shooters.
Patrol officers are taught the kind of tactics usually given only to SWAT and the military, including how to get past a barricaded door safely and how to work in low light. Part of the training simulates what it’s like to be fired upon in combat — something many police officers never encounter until it’s actually happening,
The idea behind the training was to teach patrol officers how to to take on such shooters or at least minimize the damage until SWAT teams arrive. The methods were developed by members of the Hays County Sheriff’s Department, who joined with Texas State in 2004 for research support.
ALERRT has a training facility near the San Marcos Municipal Airport. Officers take classes, fire weapons at a shooting range, practice breaching various types of doors and train in a makeshift house, complete with old furniture and wall decorations. Tuition for the two-day, 16-hour basic course in San Marcos is free, thanks to grant money.
“The training we started in San Marcos was able to help this police officer stop violence, we’re very proud of that,” Nichols said.
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2009/11/06/officer_who_shot_fort_hood_gun.html
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Dynamics and variables are things that change from one incident to another.
I know a guy who was shot by a 30-06 hunting rifle and lived........he was pretty effed-up after the ordeal, but he lived. I also personally knew an individual who was killed by a .22lr bullet fired from a Stevens single-shot bolt action rifle.
The only thing you can count on is that you can't count on things to always go the way the statistics and 'rules' say they should go.
Anything can happen on any given day.
As always, YMMV.
8)
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Whether its a .22 or a .50 Desert Eagle, the human body is amazingly tough. Yes the .22LR can kill a 13 year old girl 2 hours later, after being shot once in the back at a Fl. school and walk herself to the ambulance. 11/08.
As a BG can take multiple shots from LEO's and still survive with a larger caliber. 9mm, 40, etc,...from shooters with training.
The mindset is "My 1911 would have dropped his a**, with JHP's does not always happen in reality."
BUT it did STOP the assault. In those situations, caliber really doesn't matter. BG was hit 4 times and stopped shooting. That is the goal right?
Remember Ayoob recalling a BG shot at point blank range with an Ithaca 12g at 10 feet. Blew a hole the size of your fist through his chest,.. still took 4 officers to handcuff him, yes the BG died minutes later, but was still fighting until the end.
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I was sitting at dinner last night and said : "I wonder which one of the internet guys will use this an example of how "ineffective" the 5.7 is... Completely missing the issues of capacity and recoil management that likely contributed to the high hit percentage and large number of wounded and dead in a short time."......
Agreed Mr. Pincus. Eventually there will be some information on where the victims were struck by the idiot. That type of information is necessary for a real evaluation.
Whether its a .22 or a .50 Desert Eagle, the human body is amazingly tough. Yes the .22LR can kill a 13 year old girl 2 hours later, after being shot once in the back at a Fl. school and walk herself to the ambulance. 11/08. ...........
LEO's I know are really fearful of the 22 LR. They say it enters and bounces around...early time not much impact on the physiology but deadly after time. True or false...I don't know, but I know officers and instructors who swear the 22 is more deadly than centerfire ball...I have a hard time with that but have an open mind. Any comments from people who work ER rooms or who are LEO's or trainers?
I'm still keeping the 5.7 by the beside because the bullet construction and speed causes it to bleed energy and fall apart through walls. I don't want to hurt one of the boys sleeping or hiding behind a wall...they are all supposed to go to ground but you can never be certain......
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Thanks All for the info.....Not to rehash, but, did MB say the BG's second handgun (Not Used) was a 357 revolver???
I hadn't heard that anywhere else......
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The Article I linked to in my last post mentions that Officer Munley was hit in the legs.
To bring this back on topic, I will mention that the .223/5.56MM was developed using the same thought process as the 5.7, small high velocity round, and troops have been cursing them as barely adequate at best for the past 40+ years.
Every person with experience that I have listened to said they did not remember hearing the gun go off nor did they remember the recoil, so while those may be of interest on the range or plinking squirrels they seem irrelevant in a self defense weapon.
And when addressing the 20 round capacity, I just read a quote from Walt Rauch "If you can't solve the problem with 5 rounds, what makes you think five more (in this case 15 ) will do it".
Then of course there is plain old common sense, assuming effective hits, bigger holes bleed faster.
I may someday own a 5.7, but it will be for squirrels and targets, I'll trust my LIFE to bigger rounds.
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Bullet placement! I love .45, but I've shot the Five-seveN and it is super easy to put rounds precisely where you want them. With people moving around and the pressure of advancing officers, he was still able to get hits. We often attribute too much magic to the 45acp, when there have been failure to stops with that caliber too.
Based on the reports coming out, Officer Munley almost didn't make it. She lost a lot of blood and was in and out of consciousness. I wouldn't discount the 5.7. However, my choice for defense would probably be something more street proven. Maybe we'll have that proof of the newer cartridge someday.
"Munley, a 34-year-old former soldier who became a civilian cop on the Fort Hood base, was shot twice in both legs during Thursday's confrontation. Two powerful "cop killer" rounds (oh crap! Here we go - or BOHICA) allegedly fired by Hasan tore through her left thigh, exited and blasted through her right thigh as well. She was also struck in the wrist.
Sgt. Mark Todd, 42, a retired soldier who also works as a civilian police officer at Ford Hood, also engaged in a firefight with Hasan that lasted less than a minute, according to The Associated Press. Todd was not wounded.
Army officials say that an investigation is under way about whose bullets brought down Hasan as there was much confusion following the shooting. Munley's supervisor initially credited her with the shot that stopped Hasan."
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/fort-hood-hero-sgt-kimberly-munleys-asked-died/story?id=9022438 (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/fort-hood-hero-sgt-kimberly-munleys-asked-died/story?id=9022438)
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Good stuff! I wish our favorite discussion topics weren't so closely related to this tragedy.
And when addressing the 20 round capacity, I just read a quote from Walt Rauch "If you can't solve the problem with 5 rounds, what makes you think five more (in this case 15 ) will do it".
I love to read Walt's stuff, but while that quote is probably almost always true, because of the average elapsed time of a shootout, if I ever get into a fight where I'm standing after 5 rounds and it's still active, I hope I have more trigger pulls left
Then of course there is plain old common sense, assuming effective hits, bigger holes bleed faster.
Wouldn't that be true for deeper holes bleed faster too?
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Good stuff! I wish our favorite discussion topics weren't so closely related to this tragedy.I love to read Walt's stuff, but while that quote is probably almost always true, because of the average elapsed time of a shootout, if I ever get into a fight where I'm standing after 5 rounds and it's still active, I hope I have more trigger pulls left
Wouldn't that be true for deeper holes bleed faster too?
Deeper only if the wound channel will stay open.
Having a 20 round clip would be an advantage.
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Deeper only if the wound channel will stay open.
Having a 20 round clip would be an advantage.
RASTUS!
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Deeper only if the wound channel will stay open.
Having a 20 round clip would be an advantage.
RASTUS!
That woke yer old ass up didn't it?
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I knew I'd get a bite. Tom and I were talking about it....took the bait a little quicker than I thought you would, Haz.
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You guys have drifted off and on topic a few times since I posted earlier today... but I was workin'.... so, running back to whereI was left off:
I was not trying to argue the point of how fast or accurate you can shoot it. Nor was I talking about capacity. I was talking about effectiveness. But RP was just chomping at the bit to make a snide remark from his lofty, 'superior knowledge' position.
Haz,
What I was "chomping at the bit" for... or more precisely, what I was cynically expecting... was someone to twist the information to their own agenda. Either side could've done it, but I expected it from those negative to the 5.7, not "the other side".
Please don't take my comment as supporting the idea of the 5.7 for self defense. I was simply pointing out the flaws of your statement which focused on one aspect of the chosen gun/round and ignored the other ones. It is that kind of opinion that I detest in this forum. You can't separate caliber/capacity/recoil/energy/firearm... they are all related and all rounds/guns are compromises of those factors (and others). The point isn't "superior knowledge", the point is critical thinking skills.
If you had said "If someone had a .45 caliber weapon that carried the same # rounds and could've shot it just as well, a lot more people would've died!" I wouldn't have said a thing... or maybe I would've said "Excellent post, Haz, that was a well thought out statement!".
Too often people want things to be simple. Things usually are not.
Anyone should feel free to start a thread praising the appropriate job performance of Munley or other aspects of this event.
-RJP
PS- Rastus' point should be well taken guys... let's worry about important things and focus on intelligent discussion that can help people make informed decisions about life & death topics.