The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on June 10, 2009, 02:53:43 PM
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Officer Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop
Published - Jun 10 2009 01:59AM EDT
Dashcam video from the Travis County Precinct 3 Constable's Office in Texas shows a deputy stopping a 72-year-old woman for speeding. She refuses to sign the ticket and a confrontation follows.
She dared a deputy constable to shock her with a Taser.
So, he did.
Video released by a Travis County Constable's Office shows Deputy Chris Bieze confronting 72-year-old Kathryn Winkfein after stopping her for speeding on May 11 just outside Austin.
Video from a camera mounted in the deputy's car shows Winkfein cursing and challenging the deputy and even daring him to use the Taser on her.
"You're going to shove me? You're going to shove a 72-year-old woman?" she yelled.
Winkfein told KTBC-TV in Austin that she did nothing to provoke the use of the Taser.
But Precinct 3 Sgt. Maj. Gary Griffin said Bieze used the Taser only after Winkfein became combative.
There was no immediate comment from Winkfein on Wednesday. A call to her home was answered by a fax machine.
http://www.rr.com/news/news/article/9009/8007277/Officer_Tasers_woman_72_during_traffic_stop
VIDEO HERE
http://video.rr.com/?v=InT1TL4io3HbreglqLzG6xHnH655QFHD
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I saw that this morning on the Today show. She's a fiesty lady and if she'd kept her mouth shut and signed the ticket, she probably would have been left alone.
Tough call, she was definatly being a little argumentative.
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In answer to the question posed by the title of the thread..................
Probably not, but I giggled like a little girl when HE did. ;D
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YES! I think she got what was comin' to her!
~buzzzz~
:P
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I saw that this morning on the Today show. She's a fiesty lady and if she'd kept her mouth shut and signed the ticket, she probably would have been left alone.
Tough call, she was definatly being a little argumentative.
You can't assault someone for not signing a ticket. Those taser are used horribly sometimes. Imagine if that LEO reached out and clocked her in the face for not signing. Good God. >:( She assaulted that LEO with her 'I'm not signing this' attitude, so hurting her was the proper response?
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Sorry, thug with a badge - no call for him to shove her, that alone is an assault charge. After taking the Citizen Academy program here, there are 100 different ways he could have played this. His ego got the best of him, and although he will walk away unscathed, he will be working for another Dept. in a year or 2 at the outside. Especially since this video has gone viral.
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You can't assault someone for not signing a ticket. Those taser are used horribly sometimes. Imagine if that LEO reached out and clocked her in the face for not signing. Good God. >:( She assaulted that LEO with her 'I'm not signing this' attitude, so hurting her was the proper response?
If you read what I said Kid, I didn't say one way or the other if tasing the woman was justified. I wasn't there, I can't make that call.
I've been around a bit longer and regardless of the circumstances, I'm a "Yes Sir", "No Sir" kind of guy when it comes to LEO's. It does not pay to argue because even if you ARE innocent, the LEO on scene doesn't care in most cases. All I suggest is that you look at both sides of the equation.
I've gotten a pass on several instances because I treat people with a simple modicum of respect, especially those that are clearly armed and trying to do their jobs. I was pulled over in Detroit one time with the press of a S&W barrel in the back of my head BEFORE he respectfully asked for my license and registration. One never knows how bad a day the LEO had before he stopped you.
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When i first read the topic I thought it said "Would you have tasted this 72 yr old woman?" My first reaction was "Eewww," but after seeing the video, I'm not so sure. I likes 'em fiesty!
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When i first read the topic I thought it said "Would you have tasted this 72 yr old woman?" My first reaction was "Eewww," but after seeing the video, I'm not so sure. I likes 'em fiesty!
Yer a SICK puppy, BAC
I LIKE THAT! ;D
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When watching the vid, you can see it has been edited - it's jumpy and the time stamp skips. Wonder if what was edited out was good for the woman or the officer?
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I didn't see the justification, that being said, the video was not complete so I don't have an informed opinion. Now I think he might have been trying to get both of them out of the road by his actions, personally, being a non LE type, I would have let her stand by the road and let the video and audio record my trying to get her to move and let her roll the dice with the traffic.
However, the actions of the woman were deplorable,and stupid. In recognition of what Timothy posted, I am not going to act the fool around someone who has a loaded gun and other "instruments of compliance" hanging off his belt. You really don't know what kind of day this guy had.
If this woman could see the cops life over the past 24 hours, what could it have been? Maybe he is a functioning alcoholic who is still a little drunk. Maybe being a little drunk makes him pissed off, or because he found the dog had chewed his holster, the cat crapped in his shoes, he was passed over for promotion, his ex-wife just won a huge alimony decision because his wife had a snake of a lawyer who was hired by his evil ex-mother-in-law. Who by the way looks like YOU, YOU 72 YEAR OLD HAG!!! AHHHHHHH! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Click... (reloading sounds) BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!... well, you get the idea. Cops are human too, if you are smart, you never forget that just because they are trained doesn't mean they don't have the capability to divert from that training in a split second.
Let's be safe out there!
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Mother in law?
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"Dont tase me, sonny!"
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Mother in law?
In my case Zap her,.... ;)
But in this case, the LEO could have been more patient, the ticket was written, she didn't have to sign it. The ticket is going to be filed anyway and its out of the LEO's hands after that.
You can treat a mouthy 19 year old like that, but a 72 year old woman?
Here's your copy ma'am, drive safely, and have a nice day. (Whether she signed it or not)...
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First why did she have to get out of the car for a speeding ticket.. write it.. hand it to her and be gone.
And what was cut out of the video...........?
But he made her get out. of the vehicle...
and she said "give me the f*&^ing thing and I'll sign it.. (she said it 2 times in fact) and he pushed her... then SCREAMED at her....
that is when I wanted to drive his nuts up around his fat throat!
She was 72 for gods sake.. and he had 200 lbs on her....She wasn't a convicted felon.. she was only speeding..
You don't have to have a signature on a damned ticket! Give it to her.. if she tears it up.. it is her fines and penalties...
Junior jock strap wanna be big shot ego cop .......................god there's millions of them out there.. >:( :P
Guess you know what I think about it..
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Yes I would of tased her, because the night stick leaves marks, in fact I might of zapped twice just for being a bitch.
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You say bitch like its a bad thing... LOL
I can be a nice bitch or I can be a ....well..............maybe I don;t have to spell it out.. ;D
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I seldom get to deal with "nice" bitches. Depending on the day I had I might have emptied the tazer into the old battle axe.
Being edited as the video was we are NOT seeing the whole story, I suspect someone is trying to construct a "Rodney King retirement".
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Here in Florida you have to sign the ticket or you go to jail. Its the law here.
Here's another way of looking at it. Would it have made the news if the person being tased was a 25 year old man?
With the beligerence I saw on the video, I'd have tazed her too. But I would not have pushed her.
Tased, Arrested with a resisting arrest charge, and Baker acted her for possible dimentia.
Old age does not exempt you from the law.
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You dont know my in law. >:(
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She might have been a bitch.. but he was an ass-wipe... :P
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Simple point.Cops have the duty to enforce the law. They DO NOT have the right to punish people for breakng it. I don't care what kind of day you're having. When someone puts a weapon in your hands you have a higher responsibility.Either live up to it or find a new line of work. I don't care what they charge this woman with, but Barney Fife should be fired.
FQ13
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I have seen all of the video. The tricky thing is that the Taser is not just designed deployed to protect the officer, it is also a device that is intended to protect the citizen. (Let's table all of the unsubstantiated "Tasers Kill!" stuff for now). I worked LE in the days just before Tasers were starting to be issued, but I was certified as a Taser Instructor and have been shot with 3 different models at various times (in training..... ::) ).
The Taser is designed to protect the citizen by avoiding the use of batons or unarmed techniques that tend to result in greater injuries than the probes/electrical energy. This guy could have snapped her arm, but when she started resisting the first attempt to cuff, he pushed her away and drew his Taser. This action is probably precisely in line with his current training and department policy. Something like: "Don't wrestle with people, use the tools we've given you to minimize injury to both you and the citizen involved."
We could just as easily have been watching a video of "72 year old women slammed against truck!" or "72 year old great grandmother has arm broken!".
If the guy had been more charming and articulate, he might have been able to avoid needing to use force, but he wasn't. Charming and Articulate might make some parts of the LE job easier, but I'm sure his academy spent more time on the laws he was supposed to enforce (especially revenue collection traffic stops) and how to use force to do so and to protect himself.
Would I have Tased her? Probably not. But, if you drop me into the situation at the time when she is out of the car trying to shove her way past the officer, I would probably have ended up in a LT's office explaining why I pushed an old woman against her truck and bruised her arm while putting her in cuffs. Same situation, different decade. Of course, we also didn't have dash camera videos, so it would be some poor polite old woman's word against the occasionally-assertive Officer Pincus. I also saw an interview that grandma did with a local news agency (before the dash camera footage was released) in which she reads the police report and says adamantly that she did not use foul language, did not put her hands on the officer and was not being any type of problem whatsoever. Without the dash camera, you just might have believed her.....
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"Dont tase me bro!" ;D
Excessive force.
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I also saw an interview that grandma did with a local news agency (before the dash camera footage was released) in which she reads the police report and says adamantly that she did not use foul language, did not put her hands on the officer and was not being any type of problem whatsoever. Without the dash camera, you just might have believed her.....
I saw that part of the interview as well and if anything, Granny is a bit of a liar. After release of the video, according to the report, she shut the hell up....
Again, I wasn't there and I say again, don't piss someone off who has many options to restrain an indivdual at their disposal!
Good points once again Rob!
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To answer to original question, Would I have tased her? No, but like Rob, my dept. did not have a taser program. The choices available to me were ASP Baton, OC, or hands-on. I probably would have just went hands on, but it all depends on department policy.
The claims that the officer assaulted her when he pushed her back or that there was no need to get her out of the truck for a speeding ticket really depend on the rule of law in that particular jurisdiction. At my old agency and according to State Law, every traffic stop was a custodial arrest, but that if the subject would sign the summons (a promise to appear in court [if need be], or pay the fine) then, they would be released on their signature. If the subject refused to sign the summons, in essence, refusing to appear in court or pay the fine, then they must be brought before the Magistrate Judge to handle the matter in person. Of course 99% would sign the summons. I had several occasions where I needed to take some additional time with the subject to fully explain the repercussions of not signing the summons, but most realized that signing was a far better thing to do. Then you'd have the 1% that had to do things the hard way and they got cuffed, their vehicle towed, and transported to the Magistrate.
If this officer worked in such a jurisdiction and if the granny refused to sign the summons, then the LEO would be required to arrest her. At that point, any amount of reasonable force is sanctioned to effect the arrest. Now department policy on the amount and type of force would start apply.
As for the shove, after having worked in a large urban area where more LEO's were killed by passing traffic than by violent offenders, I would have physically moved her over to the shoulder or started walking over that way hoping she would follow me. If not, then yes, I would snatch her and drag her over away from traffic. At the time of the shove the LEO seemed trapped by the corner of the truck and the passing traffic.
In the end, this really is a public-image, no win situation for the LEO. Any amount of force used on a 72 yr old granny is going to tug at the emotional heart strings of anyone watching the video. This is one of those few instances where you have a job to do and laws to enforce. Sometimes people make you do things you don't want to do (like jacking-up a 72 yr. old grandmother), but that is the nature of the work. As others have stated, I would have handled it differently, but assuming the LEO followed the laws of his jurisdiction and his department policy on use of force, then he's justifed in what he did.
USSA-1
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If the guy had been more charming and articulate, he might have been able to avoid needing to use force, but he wasn't. Charming and Articulate might make some parts of the LE job easier, but I'm sure his academy spent more time on the laws he was supposed to enforce (especially revenue collection traffic stops) and how to use force to do so and to protect himself.
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I had several occasions where I needed to take some additional time with the subject to fully explain the repercussions of not signing the summons, but most realized that signing was a far better thing to do. Then you'd have the 1% that had to do things the hard way and they got cuffed, their vehicle towed, and transported to the Magistrate.
If this officer worked in such a jurisdiction and if the granny refused to sign the summons, then the LEO would be required to arrest her. At that point, any amount of reasonable force is sanctioned to effect the arrest. Now department policy on the amount and type of force would start apply.
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This is one of those few instances where you have a job to do and laws to enforce. Sometimes people make you do things you don't want to do (like jacking-up a 72 yr. old grandmother), but that is the nature of the work. As others have stated, I would have handled it differently, but assuming the LEO followed the laws of his jurisdiction and his department policy on use of force, then he's justifed in what he did.
USSA-1
Court jurisdictions around the country, including the SCOTUS, have consistently ruled that the police have no legal obligation to enforce any law at any time. Rob got it close, the LEO would lose his job if the tickets ain't flowing.
IMO, and admittedly from a chopped up video, this cop comes across as one of those more than occasionally assertive types who gets off on the power and authority in his badge. Look at his body language the whole time, he shoved her, he was doing everything to intimidate this person, not explain things to her. I wonder what the chopped out portions show? It appears she was retreating to the side of the road when he finally tased her as well. Hard to tell from the video if he had any problems with this.
He did use his radio once, but he should have called for a female backup and let her deal with the obnoxious granny, especially after she started being pissy. Being obnoxious is not a crime, and certainly not a reason for (or worth) being tased over.
This is a difference in older LEOs and the newer crop - the young'uns are being taught it is perfectly acceptable to violate a citizen - on a traffic stop no less - as long as it is within the rules.
As we learned in the CA class I just finished with the County Sheriff, being a cop is all about how you talk with people. There was a decided difference between how the Capt. and sergeants talked, and how the young training officer and patrol officers talked. The younger ones are much harder, much more authoritarian from the very beginning than the older officers. As one of the young ones told me directly - "I don't care what happens, I am going home safe at the end of the day!"
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"Being obnoxious is not a crime, and certainly not a reason for (or worth) being tased over."
You never met my ex wife. ::)
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"Being obnoxious is not a crime, and certainly not a reason for (or worth) being tased over."
You never met my ex wife. ::)
Some how Tom, I think if she were asked, she might give an identical answer, just inserting the word husband. Just a hunch. ;D
FQ13
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Some how Tom, I think if she were asked, she might give an identical answer, just inserting the word husband. Just a hunch. ;D
FQ13
Depends on what her NEW husband is like.
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this same guy stopped me a few years back when I was crossing an intersection with a YELLOW light. not yet red, and I couldn't have stopped safely in the time and distance that I had before getting to the intersection. Bastard pulled me over and of course it's his word against mine. of course I was leaving the country soon so I had to pay the fine and wave the court date. what a dick.
oh yeah, same road, hwy 71
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I guess the LEO could learn a few tips from this officer.........
***LANGUAGE ALERT***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyHMbHHtArE
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;D ;D ;D
I guess the LEO could learn a few tips from this officer.........
***LANGUAGE ALERT***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyHMbHHtArE
MAINE-IACS ;D ;D ;D ;D
I work with a bunch of these guys, I guess that's all they have up there, patatoe farmers and seamen ;)
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I guess the LEO could learn a few tips from this officer.........
***LANGUAGE ALERT***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyHMbHHtArE
Deepwater forgot about the loggers, otherwise he nailed the "sonavawhore" ;D
This guy would make a good example too ;D Need to listen close
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0JRxrWp5Zc&NR=1
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First why did she have to get out of the car for a speeding ticket.. write it.. hand it to her and be gone.
And what was cut out of the video...........?
But he made her get out. of the vehicle...
and she said "give me the f*&^ing thing and I'll sign it.. (she said it 2 times in fact) and he pushed her... then SCREAMED at her....
that is when I wanted to drive his nuts up around his fat throat!
She was 72 for gods sake.. and he had 200 lbs on her....She wasn't a convicted felon.. she was only speeding..
You don't have to have a signature on a damned ticket! Give it to her.. if she tears it up.. it is her fines and penalties...
Junior jock strap wanna be big shot ego cop .......................god there's millions of them out there.. >:( :P
Guess you know what I think about it..
Excellent evaluation, and my take as well. Many of these cops bring on a lot of this themselves. It almost looks as if they WANT a confrontation. What if she would have gone into cardiac arrest? You can bet the police force would be on the a$$ end of a 7 digit law suit that her family would easily WIN. Some of these cops are a financial liability waiting to happen. I don't think this guy should be fired, but given some lessons in common sense. I'm saying he acted ignorantly, not stupidly. Bill T.
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Deepwater forgot about the loggers, otherwise he nailed the "sonavawhore" ;D
This guy would make a good example too ;D Need to listen close
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0JRxrWp5Zc&NR=1
I thought they had already chopped down most of the good wood.. old growth. oh well, anything to keep the Maine-iacs busy.. ;D
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I thought they had already chopped down most of the good wood.. old growth. oh well, anything to keep the Maine-iacs busy.. ;D
You haven't been to Maine have you ? ;D Pine grows quick ! but besides that, it had time to grow back, they started cutting in Portland Me. and didn't stop till they got to Portland Or. That's why there is also a Bangor out there.
Back on topic, all you people ragging on the cop for zapping that foul mouthed old bat need to remember that you are NOT seeing the whole video.
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It doesn't look like it's from the beginning, but it's a less chopped up version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yWaE8tTlsc
CNN version: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/06/10/pn.tasered.granny.cnn.html
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My opinion is unless she had a machete or some such offensive weapon there is no reason.
The guy is 18" taller and 150 to 200 lbs heavier and has had training in phyical restraint (to some degree).
Was she a loud mouyh, PITA old bitty? YES! Tase her? NO! We're not talking about some hard core criminal, it's a 72 year old granny! If she is out of hand, spin her around and cuff her or toss her in the back of the cruiser.
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The more I view this, and several other versions of it, the more I think the cop was a idiot. These "Tasers" have been involved in nothing but controversy and expensive law suits since their introduction. The more widespread there use, the more problems they seem to create. Their use has become much too profound. While there is an advantage to some of these "less than lethal" devices, there is also an abuse factor because they are in fact "less than lethal". Cops, and everyone else know they can't call a bullet back, so people use extreme discretion before dropping the hammer. With these things, along with "stun guns", pepper spray, bean bag shotshells, and all of the rest, it's anyone's guess.
Much of this stuff simply pi$$es people off when used in the wrong circumstance. Several years ago my wife and I were at a local bar when a obviously drunk patron made an obscene comment to my wife. While angry I simply told him to sit down and shut up. He walked up to me and started getting in my face. It got a little louder when the bartender came from around the bar, (on my blind side), and tried nailing ME with a "stun gun". I felt a slight shock, (I was wearing a flannel shirt with a tee shirt underneath). I can't tell you how angry that made me. I took the thing away from him and threw it as hard as I could against the wall, breaking it into several pieces. My wife gathered her things and we left. The next day I went back and talked to the owner. He explained the guy who I described was a "regular", and a friend of the bartender who tried to nail me. This is the kind of crap that goes on all the time with these things.
Because these things won't cause permanent harm, they are used way too frequently. This cop / old woman video is just another example in a long list of these kind of things being used when they shouldn't. Cops have been running into feisty 70+ year old old ladies long before "stun guns" and "Tasers" came along. They used talent and discretion in dealing with them, not high voltage. People need skill in dealing with these type of situations. You won't get that out of a can or battery. Bill T.
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The more I view this, and several other versions of it, the more I think the cop was a idiot. These "Tasers" have been involved in nothing but controversy and expensive law suits since their introduction. The more widespread there use, the more problems they seem to create. Their use has become much too profound. While there is an advantage to some of these "less than lethal" devices, there is also an abuse factor because they are in fact "less than lethal". Cops, and everyone else know they can't call a bullet back, so people use extreme discretion before dropping the hammer. With these things, along with "stun guns", pepper spray, bean bag shotshells, and all of the rest, it's anyone's guess.
Much of this stuff simply pi$$es people off when used in the wrong circumstance. Several years ago my wife and I were at a local bar when a obviously drunk patron made an obscene comment to my wife. While angry I simply told him to sit down and shut up. He walked up to me and started getting in my face. It got a little louder when the bartender came from around the bar, (on my blind side), and tried nailing ME with a "stun gun". I felt a slight shock, (I was wearing a flannel shirt with a tee shirt underneath). I can't tell you how angry that made me. I took the thing away from him and threw it as hard as I could against the wall, breaking it into several pieces. My wife gathered her things and we left. The next day I went back and talked to the owner. He explained the guy who I described was a "regular", and a friend of the bartender who tried to nail me. This is the kind of crap that goes on all the time with these things.
Because these things won't cause permanent harm, they are used way too frequently. This cop / old woman video is just another example in a long list of these kind of things being used when they shouldn't. Cops have been running into feisty 70+ year old old ladies long before "stun guns" and "Tasers" came along. They used talent and discretion in dealing with them, not high voltage. People need skill in dealing with these type of situations. You won't get that out of a can or battery. Bill T.
+100. How many times was Rodney King, a real dagerous criminal tazed and it still did no good? Honstly, I do think that it does make, some, but not the majority of cops lazy. Try to talk her down, if not cuff her. If you can't do both of these things, you weren't trained right. What if she had a pace maker? Something you should think about when dealing with an elderly person. It just seems like too many cops are both under trained and oversold on this stuff.
FQ13
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Yet another very dangerous aspect of these things has been created with so many more women being brought into the front lines of police work, i.e. patrol duty where cops can and do run into most anything. The woman's place may not be entirely "in the kitchen", but it sure as hell isn't trying to break up a fight between 2 drunk 250 pounders trying to beat the crap out of each other. It simply creates a more dangerous situation with a bad outcome much more prevalent. As society moves in this politically correct direction, or as "Harry Callahan" put it, "Stylish", we seem to have to come up with new ways to justify the end result. All of this "less than lethal" stuff has become the result. I'm all for technology making the job of police and street cops easier and less dangerous. But as story after story unfolds with these things, it seems to not be the answer many were hoping for. Instead it has become part of the problem. Bill T.
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Yet another very dangerous aspect of these things has been created with so many more women being brought into the front lines of police work, i.e. patrol duty where cops can and do run into most anything. The woman's place may not be entirely "in the kitchen", but it sure as hell isn't trying to break up a fight between 2 drunk 250 pounders trying to beat the crap out of each other. It simply creates a more dangerous situation with a bad outcome much more prevalent. As society moves in this politically correct direction, or as "Harry Callahan" put it, "Stylish", we seem to have to come up with new ways to justify the end result. All of this "less than lethal" stuff has become the result. I'm all for technology making the job of police and street cops easier and less dangerous. But as story after story unfolds with these things, it seems to not be the answer many were hoping for. Instead it has become part of the problem. Bill T.
+100
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I'd make it plus fifty, because the same could be said for a scrawny guy, or a 280 pound doughnut muncher. There ought to be a uniform PT standard for street duty. If fewer women than men make it, so be it. Just meet the standard or write tickets, or work in the crime lab or whatever.
FQ13
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There ought to be a uniform PT standard for street duty. If fewer women than men make it, so be it. FQ13
That won't happen because your second sentence explains why there is no standard in the first. It's the same with fire"men". I guess the term now is "fireperson". Some years back when it started to become popular for more women to become fire and police "people", I had a friend who was a fireman. He told me part of the physical test he had to pass to get into his department involved dragging a 100', 4 inch hose filled with water that was curled back in a "U" shape 50' out. You were timed. He said the first 50' was easy, but the last 20 feet were really tough. When they decided they had to let women into the department they DRAINED THE WATER OUT OF THE HOSE! Based on the above who would you want coming up a ladder to rescue you from your upstairs burning bedroom? This is a classic case of one step forward, 10 steps backwards. The sad part is people are going to die for society to be politically correct. Many see zero problem with that. Bill T.
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There is a law suit going on in Conn. (Hartford IIRC ) 2 White guys and a bunch of Black Firemen sat a promotion board, The White guys passed and the Blacks didn't so the Promotions were canceled.
Affirmative action in action.