The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: ericire12 on June 26, 2009, 02:02:12 PM
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Interesting read:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Insurgent+Sniping+In+Iraq?packedargs=pagenum%3D1
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An SVD is one thing. But using a PSL for sniper duty??? Bone heads.
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Let me highly reccomend a movie, called The Battle of Algiers. A french movie made in the early sixties. Not a great flick in terms of acting and a typical anti-war piece. BUT, about the most realistic depiction of urban guerilla war ever made, documentaries included. There was one scene, where two French gendarmes passed by a market. A revolotionary pulls a pistol from his waist band, shoots one in the back, takes two steps, drops it under a vegetable sellers cart, and calmy walks away. The rest of the crowd saw nothing. The article is correct, take one key shot, fade from the scene, and come back to do the same thing tomorow.
FQ13
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An SVD is one thing. But using a PSL for sniper duty??? Bone heads.
The PSL was DESIGNED for sniping.
2 good books on Soviet snipers, Enemy at the Gates, and War of the Rats both deal with the same incident during the siege of Stalingrad, the duel between Zaitsev and Koenig that ended with Col. Koenigs death, Vasili Zaitsev survived the war.
The Soviets did a post war study of sniping, (all Soviet snipers were required to maintain a record book of their shots)
The results of the study found that even when fighting on the Steppes nearly all shots were made at less than 600 meters, and the 2 most important factors for the snipers rifle was the ability to make fast follow up shots, and absolute reliability, these were found to be more important than extreme accuracy as in most cases a severe wound is as effective if not more so than an instantly fatal shot.
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The PSL was DESIGNED for sniping.
2 good books on Soviet snipers, Enemy at the Gates, and War of the Rats both deal with the same indecent during the siege of Stalingrad, the duel between Zaitsev and Koenig that ended with Col. Koenigs death, Vasili Zaitsev survived the war.
The Soviets did a post war study of sniping, (all Soviet snipers were required to maintain a record book of their shots)
The results of the study found that even when fighting on the Steppes nearly all shots were made at less than 600 meters, and the 2 most important factors for the snipers rifle was the ability to make fast follow up shots, and absolute reliability, these were found to be more important than extreme accuracy as in most cases a severe wound is as effective if not more so than an instantly fatal shot.
Thanks, now I have yet another book on my to-read list.
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Agreed on the "to read" list. Tom, and the Soviets (sounds like great name for a band ;D), are correct here though. In urban, or suburban, combat (about all thats available here in So. Fl. (sigh) a 200 meter shot is going to be pushing it. Going bang all the time, 4" at two hundred yards, and a quick follow up are going to be key. That's why I was going to go AK until I got an offer I couldn't refuse on an AR. I'm still going to scope it, but irons and an issue semi would do just fine in these parts.
FQ13
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The SVD is a great gun! The Romanian PSL is a POS! See the extra metal around the back of the receiver? Added because the receivers are so weak they were twisting and cracking from the stress of the round. Their made cheap = accuracy for crap.
Enemy at the Gates... AWSUME MOVIE!!! Have it in my collection. Watched it many times. You wont find a bigger Mosin Nagant / 7.62 X 54 fan than me! Great stuff! And the Mauser's are great in their own right too (used in movie as well). Still, the Romanian PSL is a POS. Not hard to find all the bad information on them you could ever want to read. And it all due to crap quality / materials / assembly. I'd KILL for an SVD (not so much for an STD ;D), but for the same money the camels spent on crap PSL's they could have gotten a dozen Mosin Nagants. At least they wont give your position away by throwing brass around, blow up in your face, jam, just plane fall apart in pieces.
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The SVD is a great gun! The Romanian PSL is a POS! See the extra metal around the back of the receiver? Added because the receivers are so weak they were twisting and cracking from the stress of the round. Their made cheap = accuracy for crap.
Enemy at the Gates... AWSUME MOVIE!!! Have it in my collection. Watched it many times. You wont find a bigger Mosin Nagant / 7.62 X 54 fan than me! Great stuff! And the Mauser's are great in their own right too. Still, the Romanian PSL is a POS. Not hard to find all the bad information on them you could ever want to read. And it all due to crap quality / materials / assembly. I'd KILL for an SVD (not so much for an STD ;D), but for the same money the camels spent on crap PSL's they could have gotten a dozen Mosin Nagants. At least they wont give your position away by throwing brass around, blow up in your face, jam, just plane fall apart in pieces.
Don't tell me you the the SVD is some kind of Ultra accurate rifle ?
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The PSL was DESIGNED for sniping.
2 good books on Soviet snipers, Enemy at the Gates, and War of the Rats both deal with the same incident during the siege of Stalingrad, the duel between Zaitsev and Koenig that ended with Col. Koenigs death, Vasili Zaitsev survived the war.
The Soviets did a post war study of sniping, (all Soviet snipers were required to maintain a record book of their shots)
The results of the study found that even when fighting on the Steppes nearly all shots were made at less than 600 meters, and the 2 most important factors for the snipers rifle was the ability to make fast follow up shots, and absolute reliability, these were found to be more important than extreme accuracy as in most cases a severe wound is as effective if not more so than an instantly fatal shot.
Consider the source, Tom
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I think it does amazingly well considering its using a combat rifle semi-auto action! That kind of power in the ubber reliable AK action? LOVE IT! Wish like heck I had 3K+ to drop on a good one.
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I think it does amazingly well considering its using a combat rifle semi-auto action! That kind of power in the ubber reliable AK action? LOVE IT! Wish like heck I had 3K+ to drop on a good one.
You don't know what you are talking about, That study th Reds did led to the design of the SVD. It was designed to be "Good Enough" no more.
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In talking about Soviet snipers durring that war... I may be wrong, but I really dont think hardly ANY got an oportunity to use SVD's when the Nagants were so much cheaper to produce. The russians had a pretty darn good team of women snipers working for them. As I understand it NONE of them saw anything but 91/30's. Vasili who you mentioned always used a 91/30 to my knowledge as well.
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You don't know what you are talking about, That study th Reds did led to the design of the SVD. It was designed to be "Good Enough" no more.
Huh? I know Russians designed the SVD. They didnt build "Romanian" PSL's though.
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I don't know shit about these rifles but Romania was a member of the Warsaw Pact and controlled by the Soviets until 1989 or so. Anything produced in Romania at the time had Soviet influence.
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The PSL was DESIGNED for sniping.
2 good books on Soviet snipers, Enemy at the Gates, and War of the Rats both deal with the same incident during the siege of Stalingrad, the duel between Zaitsev and Koenig that ended with Col. Koenigs death, Vasili Zaitsev survived the war.
The Soviets did a post war study of sniping, (all Soviet snipers were required to maintain a record book of their shots)
The results of the study found that even when fighting on the Steppes nearly all shots were made at less than 600 meters, and the 2 most important factors for the snipers rifle was the ability to make fast follow up shots, and absolute reliability, these were found to be more important than extreme accuracy as in most cases a severe wound is as effective if not more so than an instantly fatal shot.
First war the Soviets used the SVD in was Afghanistan, (First war they had after WWII) The PSL is basically a modified RPD machine gun, there is nothing inherently wrong with the design it has been proven over decades. And like the Tabuk, it seems to be getting the job done so I guess it ain't such a POS after all.
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Given a choice I'd much rather have the dozen Mosin Nagants you could buy with the money.
Can you count the number of things this dude is doing wrong?
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/800px-Hungarian_SVD.jpg?t=1246069113)
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Given a choice I'd much rather have the dozen Mosin Nagants you could buy with the money.
Can you count the number of things this dude is doing wrong? Takes more than one hand if your using fingers.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/800px-Hungarian_SVD.jpg?t=1246069113)
I see about four, beyond the blatantly obvious, which might count for two. Please enlighten us as to the others, as it could provide a useful sub thread.
FQ13
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I count four myself. But he's got the boys from france beat hands down!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/2432581050_4456e1957a.jpg?v=0)
Somebody let that poor guy know he's pulling the trigger on an open bolt! France ::)
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I see about four, beyond the blatantly obvious, which might count for two. Please enlighten us as to the others, as it could provide a useful sub thread.
FQ13
He is in a stable 4 point position, I don't know what he is shooting at, and what the foliage in front of him provides, is it high grass, he cannot go prone, is it beyond 400 meters, then not as stable a platform as one would like, but if the shot has to be taken, best case position. Not ideal except in concept. He is not ghillied up which probably makes him a designated marksman. Or he is just posing for a picture, but he is slung up in a stable position. Would it make any difference if he was aiming any other rifle?
If he takes only 1 shot, He will probably get away. If he moves away of course.
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He is in a stable 4 point position, I don't know what he is shooting at, and what the foliage in front of him provides, is it high grass, he cannot go prone, is it beyond 400 meters, then not as stable a platform as one would like, but if the shot has to be taken, best case position. Not ideal except in concept. He is not ghillied up which probably makes him a designated marksman. Or he is just posing for a picture, but he is slung up in a stable position. Would it make any difference if he was aiming any other rifle?
If he takes only 1 shot, He will probably get away. If he moves away of course.
My take, which is less educated than yours with all your classes is this. I just put it out so I can be corrected if I'm wrong.
1His elbow, rather than his arm appears to be touching his knee, bone to bone equals less stable.
2. He's "hiding" behind a freaking twig that provides no cover and little cocealment.
3. Said "cover" is also a glaringly obvious place to look for the sourse of an incomeing round.
4. He's kneeling, rather than sitting which provides a more stable rest with zero loss of elevation. I was taught (perhaps erroneously) that the only reason to kneel rather than sit was if you had to move IMMEDIATELY after the shot.
5. (the obvious) He's using an AK (which I like) as a SNIPER weapon. ;D (and yes this was sarcasm, as I said, I like AKs)
Your feedback would be appreciated.
FQ13
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This is 1 dimensional, and we cannot see what he is seeing.
1) prone is best if possible.
2) sitting is second best if possible
3) kneeling is next best if possible
4) standing unsupported is worst case, unless we include 1 handed/1armed shooting.
Bone on Bone does not move, muscle is flexible and in the best case scenario does move. No offense to your teachers. Build your platform out of wood not rubber, even if it is good rubber.
Why would you not go prone? best defense, you cannot see over something, same for the next 2, and I have shot in courses like this. Standing supported is at least as good as kneeling.
In the picture we cannot see the whole scene, He might be a big dumbass, with a marginal rifle, or he might be using the best cover that he has. He is in uniform and that's what he was issued and someone told him to take the shot from there.
The surrounding fauna is forest, but I don't see really high grass, prone could easily be out, it looks to me like he is sitting on something, not kneeling, but he is slung against a tree, against the stock not the barrel, in kneeling the grip arm is out, not in, it looks like he has it supported. There was a position called " rice paddy prone" that looked like this, but the grip arm is definitely supported.
Look it over again and use the pictures I have tried to paint.
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This is 1 dimensional, and we cannot see what he is seeing.
1) prone is best if possible.
2) sitting is second best if possible
3) kneeling is next best if possible
4) standing unsupported is worst case, unless we include 1 handed/1armed shooting.
Bone on Bone does not move, muscle is flexible and in the best case scenario does move. No offense to your teachers. Build your platform out of wood not rubber, even if it is good rubber.
Why would you not go prone? best defense, you cannot see over something, same for the next 2, and I have shot in courses like this. Standing supported is at least as good as kneeling.
In the picture we cannot see the whole scene, He might be a big dumbass, with a marginal rifle, or he might be using the best cover that he has. He is in uniform and that's what he was issued and someone told him to take the shot from there.
The surrounding fauna is forest, but I don't see really high grass, prone could easily be out, it looks to me like he is sitting on something, not kneeling, but he is slung against a tree, against the stock not the barrel, in kneeling the grip arm is out, not in, it looks like he has it supported. There was a position called " rice paddy prone" that looked like this, but the grip arm is definitely supported.
Look it over again and use the pictures I have tried to paint.
Thanks operator. The no bone on bone thing does seem a bit weak with your metaphor.I also did not notice the support on the stock from the tree. Much appreciated.
FQ13
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He may be sitting on his right foot, can't tell for sure, I would have the sling set up different, but even with a "hasty" sling I would have the fore end portion of the sling over my hand, not the other way around.,
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I count four myself. But he's got the boys from france beat hands down!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/2432581050_4456e1957a.jpg?v=0)
Somebody let that poor guy know he's pulling the trigger on an open bolt! France ::)
LMAO!
I would have to give this "butt's" up french guy a million dollar wound, what happened to the utilizing your fellow soldier to stand or sit in FRONT of you and using his shoulder as a rest? I'd want to be looking forward, not volunteering my ass in the air,...
Oh, I almost forgot, it's the French,... ::)
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I wonder if the french guy looks so scared because he heard return fire???
"Is that a bannana in your pocket?"
france ::)
As far as the sling position in the first picture. I have heard the way he's using it to be a plus. You can tighten your grip on the forearm to tension the sling where you want it... I've tried it myself in the past... Didnt like it, but it IS a legit hold. My primary quesiton for this guy would be why the heck isnt he on the right side of the tree!?! Would provide about 70% cover while still giveing an equally solid rest. From his red face I'm guessing he took this position in quite a hurry.
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I wonder if the french guy looks so scared because he heard return fire???
"Is that a bannana in your pocket?"
france ::)
As far as the sling position in the first picture. I have heard the way he's using it to be a plus. You can tighten your grip on the forearm to tension the sling where you want it... I've tried it myself in the past... Didnt like it, but it IS a legit hold. My primary quesiton for this guy would be why the heck isnt he on the right side of the tree!?! Would provide about 70% cover while still giveing an equally solid rest. From his red face I'm guessing he took this position in quite a hurry.
He's Russian. It might also be from last night's vodka. ;D
FQ13
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I wonder if the french guy looks so scared because he heard return fire???
"Is that a bannana in your pocket?"
france ::)
As far as the sling position in the first picture. I have heard the way he's using it to be a plus. You can tighten your grip on the forearm to tension the sling where you want it... I've tried it myself in the past... Didnt like it, but it IS a legit hold. My primary quesiton for this guy would be why the heck isnt he on the right side of the tree!?! Would provide about 70% cover while still giveing an equally solid rest. From his red face I'm guessing he took this position in quite a hurry.
Looking around his left foot it LOOKS like there is a scuffed up area where he is, while the ground cover on the other side of the downed tree seems to be completely undisturbed, so I'm GUESSING that it may have been an assigned position, either specificly for the photo or maybe to give him practice with less than ideal positioning.
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Most Iraqi insurgent sniper fire is less the 200m from a cover and concealed position. AK47s work most of the time. Here's a pic of an SVD that I picked up in Baghdad last year. SVD are not that common here.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/P2280005.JPG)
Most common is the PSL (or Iraq locally manufactured variant) as shown here. It is based off of the RPK light machine gun reciever(squad auto AK47 variant lengthen to 7.62x54R) and not the RPD which is a belt fed light machine gun and different gas system. Can you recognize the shooter? Pic from Baghdad in Dec 03'
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Steve_Austin_sights_down_Iraqi_AK_sniper_rilfe.jpg)
Second most common is a Iraqi Tabuk chambered in 7.62x39. This is based off the Yugo RPK reciever and barrel but in semi only. Rear reciever sight is adjustable for windage. Has side rail for a PSO-1 scope or equivalant. Rifle is on bottom, all three captured in Baghdad last year.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Beretta_AR70_Iranian_G3_and_Tabuk_DRM_with_PSO-1_scope.JPG)
I was a CAT II sniper for the Army before I retired.
Iraq 91,03-06,08 and 09
Afganistan 09
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Great pictures, Diver. No, I don't know the shooter in the second picture - interesting camo mix though, woodland and Eastern block mix?
What's the top rifle in the last photo, the black one? I don't recognize that one.
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Glad their out of enemy hands!
Have you smoked a camel today? ;D (Written on nearly every bomb our planes went up with when I was there)
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Looks like Steve Austin, or "Stone Cold" to the wrestling fans.
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Pathfinder- Rifle is a Italian Beretta AR70 (select fire) rifle in 5.56x45mm. Rifle below that is a Iranian licensed copy of the German G3 in 7.62x51mm (also select fire, captured during the Iran/Iraq war)
atmiller- you are correct sir, and win a cookie :D
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The no bone on bone thing does seem a bit weak with your metaphor
Sometimes that is the problem with metaphor... :-)
The issue is neither Bone on Bone nor Muscle on Muscle. What you are looking for is HARD on SOFT. Examples:
Elbow into the big muscles of the upper leg when seated.
Tricep resting on the knee when kneeling
Cheek (soft) on the comb (hard)
Buttstock (hard) against chest/shoulder muscle (soft, not the the hard ball of the shoulder joint or on the collar bone)
forend of rifle on a soft bag.
Bipod's rubber feet on hard ground surface.
The REASON is to absorb movement and vibration. M25 is correct that the "rubberiness" of soft on soft doesn't provide stability, but the unsecured Hard on Hard (elbow on a knee, for example) passes every small movement (breathing, etc) through the entire system. It also makes it much harder to maintain the position or extended periods of time and almost impossible to maintain the position through recoil and bolt manipulation.
-RJP
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i cant help but think that if china or russia somehow invaded the US that is probably what i would be doing, wouldn't you?
i know they are killing thousands of innocent people and i dont agree with that, but if the chinese were in our backyards we would all probably be making IED's and laying them down on the sides of highways.
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i cant help but think that if china or russia somehow invaded the US that is probably what i would be doing, wouldn't you?
i know they are killing thousands of innocent people and i dont agree with that, but if the chinese were in our backyards we would all probably be making IED's and laying them down on the sides of highways.
I'd be PMing you right now for that Walmart and Lowes materials recipe.
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anytime bro ;D
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Poor Man's James Bond by Kurt Saxon ;D
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I remember reading this article in Guns and Ammo a couple of years ago. I came home that night and did a search with the name of the jihad snipers (I cannot remember the name but I believe it is in the Guns and Ammo Article). Came across a video that showed jihad snipers with camera mountings taking shots at Iraqi's, Americans and Canadians. It was very disturbing and most were kill shots. I could not believe that it was even posted on the internet. There were at least 50 different military personnel shot. I do know that I went through a box of tissue after viewing the video. At that time I had two cousins in Iraq. One in the Marines and another in a Army Stryker Unit. I know my prayers went twofold after seeing the video.
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Juba was the name of the sniper. That is where I started with the web search and found the video I mentioned earlier.
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Remember this, with the body armor you are going down if even if it DOESN'T penetrate, and since there is a lot of trauma involved you probably will not be moving for at least a few seconds.
Secondly, these are jihadi propaganda films, they are edited for effect, so if the guy does jump back up and return fire, that's getting edited out.
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Remember this, with the body armor you are going down if even if it DOESN'T penetrate, and since there is a lot of trauma involved you probably will not be moving for at least a few seconds.
Secondly, these are jihadi propaganda films, they are edited for effect, so if the guy does jump back up and return fire, that's getting edited out.
And the smart bomb that soon followed by air support, that leveled the entire bldg. was edited out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIrkAiQfhss
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And the smart bomb that soon followed by air support, that leveled the entire bldg. was edited out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIrkAiQfhss
;D