The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ellis4538 on July 05, 2009, 07:04:57 AM
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I know I'm opening the can but ... I just got the latest "Front Sight" magazine from USPSA and lo and behold there is a picture of Rob "TGO" Leatham at the SS Nationals, winning by the way using a SS 1911 with a FULL LENGTH GUIDE ROD!
Enough said...
Richard
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Can someone be kind enough to explain to me this whole "guide rod" thing? I'm a newby to 1911s.
Is it perchance an expression of male - um, endowment? ;D
PS; The request is serious, couldn't resist the snarky question.
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Excerpt from American Handgunner Magazine...
According to pistolsmith Wayne Novak, full-length recoil spring guides do three things: "Make the gun harder to take apart, change the point of impact and make money for the guy who sells them." None of those are particularly good for the guy who has one in his gun.
When long guide rods first came along they were heralded as magical things that did everything but whistle Dixie. Various gunsmiths touted them as making the gun more reliable, improving accuracy and preventing the recoil spring from binding. Those claims weren't immediately challenged and so, they became accepted as gospel.
If you look at the Government Model pistols sold by custom gunsmiths and some major manufacturers, you'll find that most of them come with a full length guide rod installed. Why? Because customers expect them.
A review of the catalogs of major parts sellers, such as Wilson and Baer, finds no such claims at all. They simply list the variations available.
Now there is one claim that I would not argue with at all-- a little more weight can help with recoil management and there are even tungsten rods that add quite a bit. But the other, alleged benefits are hard to prove.
An awful lot of the things we do to our guns are done to prevent something that might happen. We put the widget in and sure enough, nothing bad happens-- so everybody rushes out to buy widgets. Pretty soon everybody knows that widgets are required if you want your gun to work right.
Of course we must not forget the arbitrary. Full-length guide rods are an excellent example of a solution to a problem we haven't found yet. Here's another one. We are told that bottleneck cartridges are more reliable because they feed better. Oh yeah? I've got two SIG 229s, one in .40 S&W and the other in .357 SIG. Since neither one of them has ever malfunctioned, I'm sure that the .357 SIG is more reliable.
Here is a quote from one parts catalog: "Guide rods smooth out the cycling of the gun and add weight to the muzzle, reducing recoil. Also lengthen the life of your recoil spring."
But if we just stop and look at the Government Model, how the recoil spring works and where it lives, you can see that there really isn't a lot of room for something to go wrong. The barrel and the dust cover of the frame actually define where the spring can go. There's no room for it to kink or bind.
Another stated advantage is that a guide rod makes recoil springs last longer. That sounds logical, but how many of us replace recoil springs at all and, if so, how often? How much does a spring cost and how much longer will one last with a full-length rod compared to a standard rod? My guess is that even if a spring lasted twice as long, it would take awhile to pay for the rod.
Let's look at some numbers for a standard Government Model 45:
The standard recoil spring guide supports 1.5' of the spring.
The recoil spring plug supports another 1.4".
The spring is compressed 2.25" when the gun is assembled.
A relaxed GI spring is 6" long.
Therefore, 0.85" of the spring is not supported and the maximum it could flex is about 0.25" from either the dustcover or the barrel. I'm sorry. I must be missing something, but could that 0.25" of "free floating" spring possibly matter?
Let's look at another aspect. None of the present catalogs make any claims for accuracy improvement, although I recall that some of them once did. However, if you ask most shooters, they'll tell you that guide rods improve accuracy.
As part of another test I had a brand new Springfield Trophy Match. Now I'm a real fan of that gun and think it represents one of the best buys in gundom. They've always been good shooters: reliable and accurate. They also happen to come with a two piece full-length recoil spring guide. So the Trophy Match was mounted in the Ransom Rest and we shot five 10 shot groups at 25 yds. with Black Hills 230 gr. JHP ammo. Here are the results. The average was 1.886".
Then, without removing the frame from the Ransom Rest, the guide rod was replaced with a GI part. The same recoil spring was used. Same song, second verse. The average was 1.718".
You are free to reach your own conclusions about the effect on accuracy, but from a statistical viewpoint, there probably isn't any difference one way or the other.
So here's how I feel about full-length guide rods. If the gun comes with one-- and it doesn't cost extra-- I won't take it out. But if I've got a choice, Mr. Browning's original will do just fine for me.
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Very good reply Timothy...I thought this thread might generate more action because there has been a lot of discussion in print and on the net concerning the FLGR. Most of it has been negative yet when I posted this on DRTV and another site it got little play here and moderate play on the other site where a lot of negative has been posted before. Neither is what I expected.
FWIW
Richard
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Richard, you did notice that my reply was a published article from Handgunner Magazine and not necessarily my own opinion.
It was more of a reply to Pathfinder than a general statement by me.
Personally, I have a full length rod in my Para that I'm swapping out for the GI short one. More for the savings in weight than anything else. I don't shoot competition much and muzzle flip is a product of several things IMO. Whatever works for the guy squeezing the trigger is all that matters. The gun just does what it's asked to do...
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Thanks for the update, Timothy. Now I have to go and check out my Para's guide rod, and actually watch the VHS that came with it to see what they say.
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Got 2 other threads going on the subject and it seems the only PROVABLE benefit is in reduced muzzle flip.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=7542.msg95656#msg95656
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=7570.0
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Lets start another one!
I'm bored! ;D
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Lets start another one!
I'm bored! ;D
BORED ! What the heck ! it hasn't rained in 48 consecutive hours, you should be out side, it's even up to 73 degrees.
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BORED ! What the heck ! it hasn't rained in 48 consecutive hours, you should be out side, it's even up to 73 degrees.
I'm at work.....
I meant I'm working my ass off! yea, that's the ticket..... ;D
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Nice reply Timothy. It's really personal choice but I tend to side with your closing remarks.
Hey, If it was good enough for J.M. Browning........................nuf said ;)
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Thanks for the update, Timothy. Now I have to go and check out my Para's guide rod, and actually watch the VHS that came with it to see what they say.
Pathfinder....I just recieved the guide rod and plug from Ed Brown and the guide rod is NOT a drop in part for my Para. Best bet, leave it alone and love the one ya brung!
;)
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Finally some 411 that really counts. Thanks ;D
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Pathfinder....I just recieved the guide rod and plug from Ed Brown and the guide rod is NOT a drop in part for my Para. Best bet, leave it alone and love the one ya brung!
;)
FWIW....I ordered a genuine Colt Commander guide rod and sent back the Ed Brown. The Colt fits just fine with a standard guide spring and plug.
Easily dropped another three ounces in weight. I'll let you know about muzzle flip after next range visit.
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I know I'm opening the can but ... I just got the latest "Front Sight" magazine from USPSA and lo and behold there is a picture of Rob "TGO" Leatham at the SS Nationals, winning by the way using a SS 1911 with a FULL LENGTH GUIDE ROD!
Enough said...
Richard
I would shoot any gun Springfield GAVE me as my sponsored me, were I sponsored by them. I'm reasonably certain Mr. Leatham doesn't care whether he has a FLGR or not. But don't quote me on that.
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Springfield might give him his equipment, but he can have it any way he wants! He works for them also.
FWIW
Richard
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yeah but the gun starts from something, and I'm sure he has an armorer or two. He may not care whether it has a FLGR, because cleaning isn't an issue for him. I don't know, but I do know that I wouldn't care, if my job consisted of shooting for a sponsor team, whether the gun(s) used have a FLGR.
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I would shoot any gun Springfield GAVE me as my sponsored me, were I sponsored by them. I'm reasonably certain Mr. Leatham doesn't care whether he has a FLGR or not. But don't quote me on that.
On his page (http://www.robleatham.com/Rob%20Leatham%20gun%20vault.htm), in interviews, and in person, TGO makes it clear that his guns are built to his specs, with him doing much of the building. I don't think there's anything on his gun that he didn't specify.
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Due respect to Mr. Leatham. I heard he shoots about 200,000 rounds a year just competing but he ain't shooting a gun the average guy can buy and certainly not a gun made primarily in S. America and assembled in IL. It's 100% custom and tuned for hot rod shooting by he, and S. Armorys' team of hotshot gunnies.
Just like I can't play golf with Tigers irons, I doubt very much I could shoot with Rob's 1911.....
just a thought...like I said, I'll let you know if I prefer one over the other but my opinion only matters to me!
I'm truely a Colt guy at heart but since they can't be had hereabouts, I gotta work with what I can get.....
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Due respect to Mr. Leatham. I heard he shoots about 200,000 rounds a year just competing but he ain't shooting a gun the average guy can buy and certainly not a gun made primarily in S. America and assembled in IL. It's 100% custom and tuned for hot rod shooting by he, and S. Armorys' team of hotshot gunnies.
Just like I can't play golf with Tigers irons, I doubt very much I could shoot with Rob's 1911.....
Putting aside the fact that there are lots of people shooting guns just as customized as Rob Leatham's, the point was that he could have any configuration that he wanted, but he opts for the FLGR, and even opts for a tungsten guide rod in his XD. Seems like a lot of trouble and extra weight unless he believes the FLGR is doing something desireable.
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Putting aside the fact that there are lots of people shooting guns just as customized as Rob Leatham's, the point was that he could have any configuration that he wanted, but he opts for the FLGR, and even opts for a tungsten guide rod in his XD. Seems like a lot of trouble and extra weight unless he believes the FLGR is doing something desireable.
Good point and I didn't miss it. Just an alternate opinion Barry...If I find anything I don't care for, I'll put my FLGR right back in service. I'm looking for 100% reliability, not accuracy. If it falters even once, back to stock it goes and stock for Para is with a FLGR.
BTW, how far are you from Grove Springs? Might be doing some hunting out your way this fall or next...old Navy buddy has three hundred acres.
;)
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Due respect to Mr. Leatham. I heard he shoots about 200,000 rounds a year just competing but he ain't shooting a gun the average guy can buy and certainly not a gun made primarily in S. America and assembled in IL. It's 100% custom and tuned for hot rod shooting by he, and S. Armorys' team of hotshot gunnies.
Just like I can't play golf with Tigers irons, I doubt very much I could shoot with Rob's 1911.....
just a thought...like I said, I'll let you know if I prefer one over the other but my opinion only matters to me!
I'm truely a Colt guy at heart but since they can't be had hereabouts, I gotta work with what I can get.....
Rob's words to me ...
Everything he shoots is completely available through the custom shop with the exception of the light trigger (liability issues). However, if my gunsmith can't get it to my liking Rob and his buddies will make sure it happens.
I haven't spoken, or even met, Doug Koenig, but I have heard that he promises the same out of Performance Center.
There is stuff that is available that is not on the web site or catalogs through these companies.
In my world the biggest limitation is the right hip pocket ;)
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(http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/darrinheard/canoworms.jpg)
mmm yum. can o worms, what did we start this one with?
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(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/b016-worm-0305n_03-16-2005_IS4SDSQ.jpg)
Or a bottle of worm ;)
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(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/b016-worm-0305n_03-16-2005_IS4SDSQ.jpg)
Or a bottle of worm ;)
mmmmmm.... takillya..... :o
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Back to the conversation at hand. Just because you are a professional does not mean you are lass superstitious than the next guy, in fact you may be more superstitious, if any other sport is an indication. Wearing the same shower shoes every game, not cleaning a uniform the entire season. Just being a professional does not necessarily make one more knowledgeable than another.
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BTW, how far are you from Grove Springs? Might be doing some hunting out your way this fall or next...old Navy buddy has three hundred acres.
;)
Not sure where Grove Springs is. I'm in the far southeast corner of the state - down in the Bootheel.
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Not sure where Grove Springs is. I'm in the far southeast corner of the state - down in the Bootheel.
About 40 miles east-northeast of Springfield off route 5.
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Back to the conversation at hand. Just because you are a professional does not mean you are lass superstitious than the next guy, in fact you may be more superstitious, if any other sport is an indication. Wearing the same shower shoes every game, not cleaning a uniform the entire season. Just being a professional does not necessarily make one more knowledgeable than another.
On that, I am in total agreement.
Pro's might have more opportunities to see different perspectives than some of us do, but it still don't make them the 'end-all top authorities' on a particular subject.
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About 40 miles east-northeast of Springfield off route 5.
Opposite side of the state. But have a great hunt, whatever length guide rod you use.
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On that, I am in total agreement.
Pro's might have more opportunities to see different perspectives than some of us do, but it still don't make them the 'end-all top authorities' on a particular subject.
I'm curious - if decades of being a top shooter and top gunsmith and working closely with the best in the business to design, test, and compete with the best guns in the world doesn't make someone an authority, what does? Granted, if Todd Jarret or Jerry Miculek, or Michael Voight, or any of the dozen or two people with comparable experience voiced an opposing opinion, you'd have to take them pretty seriously, too, but what other criteria would you use to declare someone an "authority"?
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I'm curious - if decades of being a top shooter and top gunsmith and working closely with the best in the business to design, test, and compete with the best guns in the world doesn't make someone an authority, what does? Granted, if Todd Jarret or Jerry Miculek, or Michael Voight, or any of the dozen or two people with comparable experience voiced an opposing opinion, you'd have to take them pretty seriously, too, but what other criteria would you use to declare someone an "authority"?
So, you're saying if Rob Leatham (and I respect him for what he does, and was in no way jabbing at him, just pointing out that you need to get information from many different sources before making an educated decision) told you to lube your 1911 with horsesh*t, you'd do it because he's an expert?
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Can-o-worms run amok!
I have an opinion based on my experience. I don't expect anyone to respect my opinion until and when the come to know me and conversely, I don't respect people merely for their experiences or opinions until and when I get to know them.
I mean no disrespect to any professional shooter, golfer, engineer, architect or garbageman. The term professional merely means that individual gets paid to perform a task or function. They can either be GOOD or BAD at what they do. Simple as that.
I had a few doctors try their very, very best to harvest my internal organs BEFORE I was finished using them. They are considered PROFESSIONALS in their field but every year they manage to kill tens of thousands of people as a result of their incompetence.
From here on out, I want to be considered a Professional Fat-ass because I DO get paid to sit on it 40 hours a week and it has managed to become one of the larger features on my 6'1". 265# body....
All in good fun, lets keep it civil..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I am not trying to bad mouth any one, especially not Rob Leatham. But, in order to win me over, I would need to see some good, reproducible data to back up any claim. Not just the advice of a shooter, and not just because it hasn't been dis proven. If you want to claim FLGR are better than the standard guide rod, then by all means produce your evidence, with a statistical analysis. I don't want to see raw data, with your guess as to what the data says, run the regression and prove it. Until then quit trying to convince everyone you meet that FLGR are the bee's knees, and let bygones be bygones. I'll use my shorty guide rod and you can use your extra long guide rod, and we can live in peace. No dogs and cats living together, no problems.
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Can-o-worms run amok!
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I mean no disrespect to any professional shooter, golfer, engineer, architect or garbageman. The term professional merely means that individual gets paid to perform a task or function. They can either be GOOD or BAD at what they do. Simple as that.
I had a few doctors try their very, very best to harvest my internal organs BEFORE I was finished using them. They are considered PROFESSIONALS in their field but every year they manage to kill tens of thousands of people as a result of their incompetence.
Please forgive my edit, I just want to show what I'm aiming at here. The problem is also one of definition. Professional can be, and is, used to show you have lost amatuer status by getting paid. The definition as referring to the doctors is the definition is then of a person who has been educated into a learned profession (teaching, medicine, law, business...) and the defining of said person as an expert. (Putting aside individual judgements of any particular profession. My opinion of doctors agreeing with yours. )
We rely on experts so we don't have to study every thing ourselves, (our cars, guns, RVs, TVs, MP3s, computers, education, law, medicine, stain removal ;D ).
Would we clean our guns with crap if an expert said so? Well, yes. Thousands of houswives and mothers put peanut butter into kid's hair to get chewing gum out. Is anyone really going to claim they don't rely on expert opinions all day in every asspect of life? Well, maybe a hermit like the unibomber. The rest of us? Of course we do. How many of us are going to experiment with oil change intervals in OUR new car/truck/RV?
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Please forgive my edit, I just want to show what I'm aiming at here. The problem is also one of definition. Professional can be, and is, used to show you have lost amatuer status by getting paid. The definition as referring to the doctors is the definition is then of a person who has been educated into a learned profession (teaching, medicine, law, business...) and the defining of said person as an expert. (Putting aside individual judgements of any particular profession. My opinion of doctors agreeing with yours. )
We rely on experts so we don't have to study every thing ourselves, (our cars, guns, RVs, TVs, MP3s, computers, education, law, medicine, stain removal ;D ).
Would we clean our guns with crap if an expert said so? Well, yes. Thousands of houswives and mothers put peanut butter into kid's hair to get chewing gum out. Is anyone really going to claim they don't rely on expert opinions all day in every asspect of life? Well, maybe a hermit like the unibomber. The rest of us? Of course we do. How many of us are going to experiment with oil change intervals in OUR new car/truck/RV?
What exactly in your exalted opinion is wrong with people who do not wish to participate in your travesty of a society ?
Other than it offends your anti American socialist sensibilities and need for government control ?
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Exactly? Well, they are sociopaths. (That is generally regarded as being "nuts" by people in a society.)
Other than that? Nothing really. I don't mind hermits or sociopaths until they start shooting people or sending bombs through the mail. I admit to finding them an object of ridicule and humor. I wouldn't send in the FBI as in Ruby Ridge or Waco.
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Exactly? Well, they are sociopaths. (That is generally regarded as being "nuts" by people in a society.)
Other than that? Nothing really. I don't mind hermits or sociopaths until they start shooting people or sending bombs through the mail. I admit to finding them an object of ridicule and humor. I wouldn't send in the FBI as in Ruby Ridge or Waco.
I'm not surprised that you find self reliant people offensive, after all, you aren't and they are the ones who made America great.
Of course socialists like you elected a post turtle who's going to "Change that".
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What exactly in your exalted opinion is wrong with people who do not wish to participate in your travesty of a society ?
Other than it offends your anti American socialist sensibilities and need for government control ?
So the Unabomber was just a fine American who had different ideas about technology and society? Do you endorse his methods?
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So the Unabomber was just a fine American who had different ideas about technology and society? Do you endorse his methods?
Most hermits are nothing like the Unibomber, who I will point out was a Liberal teacher from Berkley.
You should think about that.
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I am not trying to bad mouth any one, especially not Rob Leatham. But, in order to win me over, I would need to see some good, reproducible data to back up any claim. Not just the advice of a shooter, and not just because it hasn't been dis proven. If you want to claim FLGR are better than the standard guide rod, then by all means produce your evidence, with a statistical analysis. I don't want to see raw data, with your guess as to what the data says, run the regression and prove it. Until then quit trying to convince everyone you meet that FLGR are the bee's knees, and let bygones be bygones. I'll use my shorty guide rod and you can use your extra long guide rod, and we can live in peace. No dogs and cats living together, no problems.
The problem with repoducing things is that everything is subjective. You can use objective studies with the equipment right up until you put the human factor in, and at that point it becomes subjective. Grip, grip strength, stance, flinch, movement, power factor, and everything else tied the the shooter and his choices comes into play. I have one gun that shoots great most of the time.
The problem comes in at the end of a long day of shooting, and is compounded based on the heat and heat factor. These look like items that would be reproducable, except the problem with lots of shots and the weather is their affect on the gun through the shooter rather than just on the gun. As I wear down I do things that make the gun act if different way.
It is for the subjectives that I look to the shooter and their likes rather than the scientific data. Find someone with the strengths and weaknesses that best match me, and follow them until I shoot ankle deep in brass daily to learn on my own.
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That would be why I said to run the regression. There as plenty of Statistical analysis that can, and will, tell you whether there is an advantage to one category over the other, regardless of the human error involved. I'm talking about proven statistical methods, there are many, that can do the job, and will tell whether a FLGR is better then a standard length guide rod.
The problem of course comes in that most shooters are either not good enough, or are set in their opinions so much that they refuse to try and prove their case one way or the other. If that's the case then no problem, just don't try to THRUST your opinion on others based solely on the force of the argument, rather than the validity or cogency of the argument.
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That would be why I said to run the regression. There as plenty of Statistical analysis that can, and will, tell you whether there is an advantage to one category over the other, regardless of the human error involved. I'm talking about proven statistical methods, there are many, that can do the job, and will tell whether a FLGR is better then a standard length guide rod.
The problem of course comes in that most shooters are either not good enough, or are set in their opinions so much that they refuse to try and prove their case one way or the other. If that's the case then no problem, just don't try to THRUST your opinion on others based solely on the force of the argument, rather than the validity or cogency of the argument.
According to all the OBJECTIVE information I've seen the only difference between the 2 is the FLGR is less convenient on disassembly. the only other differences are personal preference.
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The FLGR is also slightly heavier.
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According to all the OBJECTIVE information I've seen the only difference between the 2 is the FLGR is less convenient on disassembly. the only other differences are personal preference.
The wild card that makes a gun a gem or a goat when it comes to self defense or competition.