The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ichiban on July 18, 2009, 05:34:22 PM
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This is a public range on National Forest land. There are very few public places to shoot
locally so this place is very popular and very dangerous. No RO and way too many
knuckleheads.
Details aren't available yet and my heart goes out to his family.
Man killed in apparent accidental shooting at Rampart Range
THE GAZETTE
A man in his mid 20s was killed at Rampart Range shooting area shortly after noon today.
“It appears to be accidental,” said El Paso County Sheriff’s Lt. Lari Sevene. "He was with a group of friends. He was shot once in the chest area.”
She said he was shot with a handgun.
She said his friends did CPR for 30 minutes until medical units arrived. Emergency workers were unable to revive him. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
His name has not been released, pending notification of relatives.
http://www.gazette.com/news/rampart-58729-range-shooting.html (http://www.gazette.com/news/rampart-58729-range-shooting.html)
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Large areas, with no RO's, and a bunch of people shooting, allows too many variables, unfortunately there are "yahoo's", weekend warrior types that don't have the level of discipline or training to go to a wide open "range".
When living in NC, I have encountered these people myself, drinking beer, out in the Pender County Gamelands, with pistols and shotguns blasting away with the stereo blazing. I did not enjoy myself and moved on.
The RESPECT firearms deserve can also be abused by the ignorant and reckless. Try to tell them they are getting "carried away" or to "calm down" can also be met with "redneck" consequences.
I have experienced this first hand, and feel sorry for his family. It is a shame that a careless accident, that probably could have avoided, shows how dangerous firearms truly are. Especially in the hands of the "knuckleheads".
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Large areas, with no RO's, and a bunch of people shooting, allows too many variables, unfortunately there are "yahoo's", weekend warrior types that don't have the level of discipline or training to go to a wide open "range".
When living in NC, I have encountered these people myself, drinking beer, out in the Pender County Gamelands, with pistols and shotguns blasting away with the stereo blazing. I did not enjoy myself and moved on.
The RESPECT firearms deserve can also be abused by the ignorant and reckless. Try to tell them they are getting "carried away" or to "calm down" can also be met with "redneck" consequences.
I have experienced this first hand, and feel sorry for his family. It is a shame that a careless accident, that probably could have avoided, shows how dangerous firearms truly are. Especially in the hands of the "knuckleheads".
+1000
I too have been to a range that had no Range Officer. There was a young couple (in their 20s) and the boyfriend was teaching his girlfriend to shoot. The girl was turning around with a loaded Glock and pointing it down the firing line, directly behind her and all over the place. He finger was inside the trigger guard. I spoke politely to the guy and asked him to instruct his girlfriend to be more careful. The young lady in question was obviously nervous, scared of the handgun, and laughing uncomfortably. The boyfriend said something to the effect that he was "teaching" her and that he knew what he was doing (I don't remember the exact conversation as this was about 15 years ago. I do remember that the guy was a smart alec). I left and as I was walking away I saw people from the other side of the firing line walking up to the couple and I heard them begin to complain. I never returned to this range and I moved away from Dallas shortly thereafter. I now live about 80 miles from Dallas and we go there frequently to see members of my wife's family and members of my family. I don't know if that range is still open. I have never bothered to check and I doubt that I ever will.
I truly feel for the family of the victim. Pending an investigation, I can only suspect that the "accident" was caused by neglect or carelessness (I seriously doubt malfunction). If it turns out to be carelessness, I believe that the shooter should be charged with the full weight of the law (negligent homicide, manslaughter or another appropriate charge).
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Sorry to hear about this, tough on the guy's family and friends who had to do CPR on him.
Even the small, hunter-type range near me sees its share of knuckleheads. When I went there to shoot with deamonpi and his new won-it-at-DRTV Tactical Solutions .22 AR, there were a group of young'uns, twenty-something, and the muzzles were all over the place. I intervened, asked them to keep the muzzles downrange or straight up, and it sort of worked. Scary though.
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Hmmmmm... maybe we should start another thread for all those gun range horror stories. Well lookie there:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=7862.msg99611#msg99611
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I do not tolerate a lack of discipline at the range. If someone is getting careless, I kindly suggest he/she utilize firearm safety at the range. I try to be nice and usually all goes well. One thing that I do while at the range is keeping a firearm on my side holstered while I am firing which ever weapon I own. I have done this for numerous years. May not be popular with some folks but I have yet to have run into any serious trouble at a gun range. I remember Combat Arms Training and Maintenance (CATM) that were always armed at our range in the Air Force. Good way to protect your property. Even if they do not approve, I would still have my Ruger LCP in my pocket. As we saw in Florida in the last few months, you never know what could happen on the firing line. ;)
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The gun range i used to go too a man may have killed himself or had a accident. I know for a fact the range operators are a bunch of dumdasses that have their heads right up their ass. I have been there a couple of times where someone had a ND and have seen a gun go flying to the ground. Thats why ill never go back. >:( >:(
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The gun range i used to go too a man may have killed himself or had a accident. I know for a fact the range operators are a bunch of dumdasses that have their heads right up their ass. I have been there a couple of times where someone had a ND and have seen a gun go flying to the ground. Thats why ill never go back. >:( >:(
The range I go to has a RO that YELLS at dumb asses if he sees them. First visit to this range was on a Saturday, big mistake, all the jackasses were out. Maybe the stupid people come out on the weekend or the act of getting so many people together on the range leads to it, but I did not feel comfortable with so many folks there. Alot of it had to do with the fact that on the weekend all the young people turn out to shoot, young as in less than 30, and young people are stupid. I frequent the range during the week now, less people, less rush, you can just take it easy. Most of the folks during the week are old timers, fun to talk to, always ready to offer advise, and I don't fear their stupidity like the young people during the week end.
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The range I go to has a RO that YELLS at dumb asses if he sees them. First visit to this range was on a Saturday, big mistake, all the jackasses were out. Maybe the stupid people come out on the weekend or the act of getting so many people together on the range leads to it, but I did not feel comfortable with so many folks there. Alot of it had to do with the fact that on the weekend all the young people turn out to shoot, young as in less than 30, and young people are stupid. I frequent the range during the week now, less people, less rush, you can just take it easy. Most of the folks during the week are old timers, fun to talk to, always ready to offer advise, and I don't fear their stupidity like the young people during the week end.
That's an interesting comment considering YOUR age (I checked your profile before posting ;D ).
But it isn't so much that they are stupid as that their parents were irresponsibly negligent, and/or lazy.
This is one of my gripes about the lying anti gun groups, They claim "it's for the children", but lets look at some OTHER safety things that were "for the children".
A lot of teenagers were getting the clap and / or getting pregnant, so "for the children" they introduced sex education into schools. Because knowledge is the best protection
A lot of teenagers were getting killed driving, so "for the children" they now include drivers ed in schools. Because knowledge is the best protection.
A lot of chidren were getting messed up with drugs and alcohol, so "for the children" they introduced drug awareness classes such as DARE into the schools. Because knowledge is the best protection.
The anti gunners CLAIM that a lot of teenagers were getting shot (if you consider 20+ gangbangers shot by Police, intended robery victims and other gangbangers) so "for the children" the anti's remove every reference to fire arms from schools, to the point where a kid with a promotional pen that had the WORD Glock on it got suspended from school, Kids who engage in Olympic sports (Trap/Skeet ) are not allowed to talk about their sport on school grounds. If it really were "for the children" safety programs like Eddy Eagle would be taught in every school in America.
Are guns a different situation where "Knowledge IS NOT the best protection. or is it because IGNORANCE is the best source of votes for the anti's ?
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That's an interesting comment considering YOUR age (I checked your profile before posting ;D ).
But it isn't so much that they are stupid as that their parents were irresponsibly negligent, and/or lazy.
This is one of my gripes about the lying anti gun groups, They claim "it's for the children", but lets look at some OTHER safety things that were "for the children".
A lot of teenagers were getting the clap and / or getting pregnant, so "for the children" they introduced sex education into schools. Because knowledge is the best protection
A lot of teenagers were getting killed driving, so "for the children" they now include drivers ed in schools. Because knowledge is the best protection.
The anti gunners CLAIM that a lot of teenagers were getting shot (if you consider 20+ gangbangers shot by Police, intended robery victims and other gangbangers) so "for the children" the anti's remove every reference to fire arms from schools, to the point where a kid with a promotional pen that had the WORD Glock on it got suspended from school, Kids who engage in Olympic sports (Trap/Skeet ) are not allowed to talk about their sport on school grounds. If it really were "for the children" safety programs like Eddy Eagle would be taught in every school in America.
Or is it because IGNORANCE is the best source of votes for the anti's ?
I think it is that last part there. "We are frightened and scared about guns. Don't talk about them, it's just too scary!"
I've always thought the best way to make guns 'safer' is to take the mystery out of them. Curious kids will be satisfied and scared adults will be informed.
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Agreed Tom. The thing is, I've realize that everyone is stupid, everyone. Young people just don't realize that they are stupid yet, I have. Knowing my stupidity I can take steps to minimize its impact or use it to my advantage. Sure I still act like a jack ass sometimes, but its with full knowledge that its stupid. Old timers, and I do mean that in the most respectful way possible ;), know that they don't know and are willing to use a more advanced level of judgment. Where as young people just do the first thing that comes to mind and decide that's its right and infallible.
The problem with young people now is that parents don't teach kids that they are stupid, feel free to replace stupid with ignorant. They just say, 'He has his own special way of doing something. There are no wrong answers.' Therefore young folks have decided that, do to this enablement of stupidity, that they are some how right in every action that they take, and never would they take the time to further judge their actions, because it would mean that they could be wrong in their initial decision, there by admitting that the possibility of being wrong exist. And if their initial decision proves incorrect, they are not wrong, but the enablement allows them to place blame elsewhere. This is why the current young generations fail so badly and are destroying their culture.
Unfortunately, some adults, old timers, have taken the enablement road in their own lives. This is where we get hippies, liberals, and socialist. Even more unfortunately, through stupid people enabling stupid people, some stupid people have decision making powers and can further enable the creation of more stupid people, sustaining the stupid people cycle. Their decisions are based around their own selfishness and seeking to further the enablement through socialism. Make no mistake, socialism it the enablement of stupidity. Using their lack of judgment they continue destroying their culture as well as enabling young people to destroy their own.
Some people aren't stupid but they know that stupid people are stupid, so they find it easier to control them. Using this method, they find that its in their interest to create more stupid controllable people in order to gain power over the stupid and non-stupid people alike.
Admit that the possibility of you being wrong exist. Be wrong if you want, with full knowledge that you are wrong. You don't seek advise if you don't know that you could be wrong, you don't learn if you think you are infallible. Stupidity kept the Earth flat and at the center of the universe. Ignorance is a illness waiting for a cure, but first you have to accept the fact that your sick. Stupid people live in denial.
Know your stupid, and you will be smarter for it. ;)
Mega thread drift.
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I suspect this is going to be a disaster for those of us in Colorado who have fought so long and so hard to retain recreational shooting on public lands. An important footnote that isn't mentioned in these stories is that in effect Colorado never developed a public range system because there's so much public land. The few public ranges have draconian rules — I've been asked to leave for "rapid firing"...double taps — and private ranges with huge waiting lists.
A few years ago a Fish and Game proposal to create a Ben Avery-type range in northern Colorado, mimicking the hugely successful facility north of Phoenix, was harpooned by antigun Forest Service officials.
I think that some of the issues raised by this thread are the unintended consequences of the decreasing number of places to shoot. The demand is growing steadily, various chunks of public lands are set aside for non-gun interests (mountain biking, hiking, equestrian, wilderness), no citations are ever issued for illegal dumping, etc. USFS rangers are specially told not to approach shooters because guns, you know, are dangerous.
You've got a lot of shooters crammed into small spaces; there is none of the interchange between newbies and more experienced shooters that I suspect all of us remember, so the lessons in safety that we all received early on are NOT being passed down. Although USFS provides maps for every other sport — including the adventure sports that result in deaths every year — citing "liability reasons" they refuse to provide maps to shooting areas or to even answer questions about where to shoot, forcing even more people into crowded areas like the Ramparts area.
We all have a responsibility to call safety violations when we see them. I've done it, and yes it is uncomfortable as hell. But if we don't explain to newbies what safety is, who is going to?
Michael B
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We all have a responsibility to call safety violations when we see them. I've done it, and yes it is uncomfortable as hell. But if we don't explain to newbies what safety is, who is going to?
Michael B
I assume everyone I meet at the range knows less about safety than I do and observe for a bit to see who, if anyone, is going to be the problem child. Sometimes, it's the people I know that are the worst offenders and that will get you a trip home in a hurry.
Another thing that I've done since my military days is assume that EVERYONE I MEET is an idiot until proven otherwise. I makes for a far less dissapointing process. Respect is earned, not given. If someone doesn't like that, they can bite me!
A tradgedy nonetheless, my prayers for this persons family...
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I assume everyone I meet at the range knows less about safety than I do and observe for a bit to see who, if anyone, is going to be the problem child. Sometimes, it's the people I know that are the worst offenders and that will get you a trip home in a hurry.
Another thing that I've done since my military days is assume that EVERYONE I MEET is an idiot until proven otherwise. I makes for a far less dissapointing process. Respect is earned, not given. If someone doesn't like that, they can bite me!
A tradgedy nonetheless, my prayers for this persons family...
Thought the vacation would mellow you out, your starting to sound like me ::)
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Thought the vacation would mellow you out, your starting to sound like me ::)
I'm mellow as hell Tom, just like you!
What's your point? ;D ;D ;D
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Agreed Tom. The thing is, I've realize that everyone is stupid, everyone. Young people just don't realize that they are stupid yet, I have. Knowing my stupidity I can take steps to minimize its impact or use it to my advantage. Sure I still act like a jack ass sometimes, but its with full knowledge that its stupid. Old timers, and I do mean that in the most respectful way possible ;), know that they don't know and are willing to use a more advanced level of judgment. Where as young people just do the first thing that comes to mind and decide that's its right and infallible.
The problem with young people now is that parents don't teach kids that they are stupid, feel free to replace stupid with ignorant. They just say, 'He has his own special way of doing something. There are no wrong answers.' Therefore young folks have decided that, do to this enablement of stupidity, that they are some how right in every action that they take, and never would they take the time to further judge their actions, because it would mean that they could be wrong in their initial decision, there by admitting that the possibility of being wrong exist. And if their initial decision proves incorrect, they are not wrong, but the enablement allows them to place blame elsewhere. This is why the current young generations fail so badly and are destroying their culture.
Unfortunately, some adults, old timers, have taken the enablement road in their own lives. This is where we get hippies, liberals, and socialist. Even more unfortunately, through stupid people enabling stupid people, some stupid people have decision making powers and can further enable the creation of more stupid people, sustaining the stupid people cycle. Their decisions are based around their own selfishness and seeking to further the enablement through socialism. Make no mistake, socialism it the enablement of stupidity. Using their lack of judgment they continue destroying their culture as well as enabling young people to destroy their own.
Some people aren't stupid but they know that stupid people are stupid, so they find it easier to control them. Using this method, they find that its in their interest to create more stupid controllable people in order to gain power over the stupid and non-stupid people alike.
Admit that the possibility of you being wrong exist. Be wrong if you want, with full knowledge that you are wrong. You don't seek advise if you don't know that you could be wrong, you don't learn if you think you are infallible. Stupidity kept the Earth flat and at the center of the universe. Ignorance is a illness waiting for a cure, but first you have to accept the fact that your sick. Stupid people live in denial.
Know your stupid, and you will be smarter for it. ;)
Mega thread drift.
I think the other part of that is that the young folks still live under the fantasy that they are immortal, and that nothing bad could ever happen to them..........until it does.
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It looks like it was a tragic accident but it might mean the end of the road for the range.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12871678?source=searchles (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12871678?source=searchles)
http://www.denverpost.com/news/frontpage/ci_12873023 (http://www.denverpost.com/news/frontpage/ci_12873023)
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That's too bad about the kid.
Though I have a tendency to yell at the others at the unsupervised range I use when others are violating good range etiquette. I was a little slow on the draw when with Pathfinder, but the last time I went right into it with them, then explained after wards.