The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on October 09, 2009, 08:18:37 PM
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HazJr. and I were just talking about the distance between projectiles when fired from an M60 at full auto. With quick math we determined that at a rate of 600 RPM and a velocity of 2800 FPS there would be a distance of 280 ft. between rounds (since one round is fired every 1/10 of a second.) When you apply this concept to the AK-47 (which also fires at a rate of 600 RPM with a muzzle velocity of about 2350 FPS) the distance between rounds is about 235 feet.
Now, think about the niche that the Kalashnikov was supposed to fill. Essentially: PUT GUN IN PEASANT'S HAND. FIRE MANY BULLETS. Is this a flawed concept?
Think about 'sweeping' the muzzle, however far you have moved the barrel in 1/10 of a second is the angle between shots. When you experiment with the numbers, the lateral distance between rounds is staggering, especially at any sort of distance! How could you hope to hit someone with an army full of essentially untrained soldiers? I realize I have not taken force of numbers into account, or the number of targets. Thoughts?
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Would that be a rapid sweep, or a Rambo slow sweep,.... the rate of lateral say left to right motion.
I see the math, the unknown variable is the speed.
Something from the movie scarface, would miss every other bad guy, "spray & pray",....
But, Geez, with an M60, the rate of big ass lead going down range, can be coordinated with a slow steady sweep.
The distance of 235 feet between rds is based on what rate of sweep?
Just asking, I actually like getting the gray matter firing on all cylinders... I'm just trying to keep up.
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HazJr. and I were just talking about the distance between projectiles when fired from an M60 at full auto. With quick math we determined that at a rate of 600 RPM and a velocity of 2800 FPS there would be a distance of 280 ft. between rounds (since one round is fired every 1/10 of a second.) When you apply this concept to the AK-47 (which also fires at a rate of 600 RPM with a muzzle velocity of about 2350 FPS) the distance between rounds is about 235 feet.
Now, think about the niche that the Kalashnikov was supposed to fill. Essentially: PUT GUN IN PEASANT'S HAND. FIRE MANY BULLETS. Is this a flawed concept?
Think about 'sweeping' the muzzle, however far you have moved the barrel in 1/10 of a second is the angle between shots. When you experiment with the numbers, the lateral distance between rounds is staggering, especially at any sort of distance! How could you hope to hit someone with an army full of essentially untrained soldiers? I realize I have not taken force of numbers into account, or the number of targets. Thoughts?
How did you get 280 feet? Assuming its held steady, the distance will be zero (of course this doesn't factor recoil, generally up and to the right which will move the poa). If its swept, the distance will vary with speed and steadiness of the sweep as well as being effected by the range (10 feet, 10 yards, 100 yards?). As far as effectiveness of spray and pray with the Ak and M-60, there are a lot of graves here and in Vietnam that say they work pretty well. :-\
FQ13
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Classic military small unit tactics - suppressive fire combined with a flanking movement. The spray and pray would keep our heads down as others tried to flank.
The number of guns is the key factor in this. One shooter is NBD, other than a lucky hit here and there. A 100 shooters doing this puts a LOT of lead downrange, driving everyone on the receiving end to ground.
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GUYS! There will be 280 feet between rounds whether I 'sweep' or not. That is based on the rate of fire and feet per second of the rounds.
Round one leaves, the next round is 280 feet in trail. Add 'sweep' and what is your expected coverage?
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GUYS! There will be 280 feet between rounds whether I 'sweep' or not. That is based on the rate of fire and feet per second of the rounds.
Round one leaves, the next round is 280 feet in trail. Add 'sweep' and what is your expected coverage?
Ah! I missunderstood. You are talking 280 feet between rounds in terms of time of impact. I read 280 between rounds laterally (or vertically) in terms of point of impact, not when they impact. My bad.
FQ13
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Ah! I missunderstood. You are talking 280 feet between rounds in terms of time of impact. I read 280 between rounds laterally (or vertically) in terms of point of impact, not when they impact. My bad.
FQ13
Exactly, FQ.
So think about 'sweeping' and how often (even at 20 yards) are you actually gonna hit someone? Think about it.
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Instead of distance between bullets, you need to think about time between bullets.
We've played with full auto stuff and it IS fun. I just don't think it is very practical (for most of our purposes).
You can empty an MP5 mag in about 1.5 seconds. If you have a string of 10 plates you have to time your sweep to cover those 10 plates in that 1.5 seconds. It is very difficult to hit all the plates on full auto with a single mag.
Shooting man against man, the guy shooting semi usually beats the guy running auto.
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1/10 a second its not alot of time.
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Exactly, FQ.
So think about 'sweeping' and how often (even at 20 yards) are you actually gonna hit someone? Think about it.
And that is actually a scarily good point. I would counter though with my paintball days back in college. Semi-auto 300 fps (I'm not even going to do the math). Thing is you could effectively light someone up even if they were behind a bush or something, as if not the first, the tenth would make it through (one of the perks of being on a sponsored team was free ammo ;D). On a running target the .68 caliber balls were too slow and you had to lead a lot, but even here, if you aimed about 4 feet ahead and started about knee level, given your trigger squeeze and grip would pull up and left (me being a lefty) it would work more often than not.
FQ13
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1/10 a second its not alot of time.
1/10 of a second is a LONG time.
TAB, I know you have heard an M60 fire. Sure doesn't sound like 600 rounds per second (at least not to me). Sounds more like one per 1/2 second.
All I'm saying in the end is that full auto SOUNDS a lot more scary when described (or shown in the movies) than it is in reality.
Standing and sweeping yer "Tommy Gun" from side to side ain't really gonna do near as much damage as aimed fire. (INMHO)
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Haz,
The other night on OC the Tactical weapons experts were shooting the latest and greatest military version of the SAW. Both of these guys are SpecForce guys, one from Australia, one from the US.
At the end of every show, they have a little competition. This week they tried three round bursts from the rifle in the prone, kneeling and standing postions. Neither one of them could get more than one round on the targets at fifty yards in any position.
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Haz,
The other night on OC the Tactical weapons experts were shooting the latest and greatest military version of the SAW. Both of these guys are SpecForce guys, one from Australia, one from the US.
At the end of every show, they have a little competition. This week they tried three round bursts from the rifle in the prone, kneeling and standing postions. Neither one of them could get more than one round on the targets at fifty yards in any position.
THANK YOU!
My contention is... stand about 10 feet from a wall that is 12 feet wide. Do a 'Hollywood" type spray (less than a second from start to finish) you will have what, maybe 3 or 4 bullets in the wall? With a semi or even a lever I could (and most likely would) do more damage cause I will aim before pulling the trigger.
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1/10 of a second is a LONG time.
TAB, I know you have heard an M60 fire. Sure doesn't sound like 600 rounds per second (at least not to me). Sounds more like one per 1/2 second.
All I'm saying in the end is that full auto SOUNDS a lot more sarcy when described (or shown in the movies) than it is in reality.
Standing and sweeping yer "Tommy Gun" from side to side ain't really gonna do near as much damage as aimed fire. (INMHO)
And it does save money. Getting back to my not so glorious paint ball days (GT Army Team) BULLDOGS! [ROFL] we started with pump actions my freshman year and ended with semi's junior and senior years. The thing is that while the volume of paint went way up (hey y'all paid for it, sorry :-[) the kill ratio didn't. More ammo downrange in the heat of the moment no more accuracy. Our Sponsor, Captain Brown clued in on this and gave us a serious ass chewing after we to lost Catholic U. He threatened to take our nice new guns and replace them with sling shots unless we averaged one kill per ten rounds. He made us train that way and it made a heck of a difference. Our subsequent games were longer, but we won more. That whole "bringing accurate rifle fire upon the enemy" actually works. ;D
FQ13
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Another stat that I won't bother to find again because I'm lazy.
According to something I read some time ago, there were nearly 100,000 rounds fired for every North Vietnamese casulty during the years of our involvement in Viet Nam...
Spray and pray is for your Church League car washes! ;D
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What started me thinking about this is how far (laterally) between rounds is there? Yes, I realize it would be based on "rate of sweep", but MB ought to show us some demos so we have an idea.
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Another stat that I won't bother to find again because I'm lazy.
According to something I read some time ago, there were nearly 100,000 rounds fired for every North Vietnamese casulty during the years of our involvement in Viet Nam...
Spray and pray is for your Church League car washes! ;D
I'm too lazy to look as well, but it would be interesting to compare to WWII stats. Granted the japs and the Nazis had bolt actions. Still, seeing the number of rounds fired, enemy dead, and our guy's survival rate would be interesting. I'd still rather have an M-16 than a Garand, but the difference in training and use mindset between the two might tell us a lot.
FQ13
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Well Haz, based on the fact that 1 moa at 100 yards is only 1/60 of 1 degree and equals 1.047 inches, can you estimate the degree of movement sweeping the barrel for one second?
It's not difficult math, just use the number you know, I say, as you do, that the lateral degree of movement would be considerable. Say you move the muzzle only 10 degrees, that equates to 600 MOA, yes? In simple engineering terminology, that equals a "Shit Load"!
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FQ,
Unless I'm clearing rooms I'll take the Garand every time. (though I would prefer a magazine fed Garand).
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Well Haz, based on the fact that 1 moa at 100 yards is only 1/60 of 1 degree and equals 1.047 inches, can you estimate the degree of movement sweeping the barrel for one second?
It's not difficult math, just use the number you know, I say, as you do, that the lateral degree of movement would be considerable. Say you move the muzzle only 10 degrees, that equates to 600 MOA, yes? In simple engineering terminology, that equals a "Shit Load"!
Tim,
I pretty much ran the limit of my math ( ;D ) doing the feet between rounds. So figure 600 rounds per second, 2400 feet per second for the rounds.
Now show the strikes on a graph from you out to , say 100 yards, when you will sweep your muzzle 5 feet laterally in 1/2 second.
My thought is there will be HUGE blank spots.
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I carried the M-60 while in the Air Force till I had enough stripes to carry my M-16, minus the M-203. The M-60 is a very accurate machinegun in small bursts. I would have to say that it would be more accurate, at distance, than a AK-47. Of course the rounds are different but I would take a 7.62 mm over a 7.62x39 any day of the week. But both provide a buttload of damage. With the M-60 and the accuracy, you can avoid collateral damage by distant shots which the AK-47 cannot do. This is my input. :)
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100 yards = 600ft diameter x pi (3.1416) = 1884.96 circumference / 360 = 5.236ft per degree of arc traveled.
1 degree equals 5.236 ft or 60 moa off target in 1/2 second!
More than likely, you can sweep the muzzle WAY more than one degree in 1/2 second. Your point is proven...
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100 yards = 600ft diameter x pi (3.1416) = 1884.96 circumfrence / 360 = 5.236ft per degree of arc traveled.
1 degree equals 5.236 ft or 60 moa off target in 1/2 second!
More than likely, you can sweep the muzzle WAY more than one degree in 1/2 second. Your point is proven...
Damn! Thats some good math skills Timothy. And a very good point that HAZ made, and you just proved. Maybe TW does have the right idea with his Sharps. ;D
FQ13
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100 yards = 600ft diameter x pi (3.1416) = 1884.96 circumference / 360 = 5.236ft per degree of arc traveled.
1 degree equals 5.236 ft or 60 moa off target in 1/2 second!
More than likely, you can sweep the muzzle WAY more than one degree in 1/2 second. Your point is proven...
Thanks, Tim! Yes, there certainly are valid applications for a full auto gun, BUT i do not believe it is for the normal combat troop (3 round auto either).
JMHO (with a bit of 'history').
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10th grade geometry and trig.....reinforced by 35 years of drafting and design.
Now, do it in your head including windage, bullet drop and curve of the earth while crawling in a Gilly suit in hostile territory in some Southeast Asian shithole. Hit your target, crawl out and go get some mid-rats as a celebration!
Gotta love the Sniper Corps of our Military!
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O.K. We just wasted time going over "spray and pray".
It's called "spray and pray" for a reason. If it worked it wouldn't have that pesky "pray" part. It would be called something like "spray and watch all the bad guys fall over dead".
Also, not to be confused with the "pull and pray" method of birth control, although probably just as effective.
See the thread with the fat guy shooting the Beretta. He practices the "Pray I find my penis before I pee myself" technique.
If your tactics involve the word "pray", you might want to reconsider.
;D
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Junkie,
We named her Meggie, she's going on 25 next year! Best shot of my life! Here I was just trying to poke some fun at her mother and she took me seriously!
;D ;D
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I'm too lazy to look as well, but it would be interesting to compare to WWII stats. Granted the japs and the Nazis had bolt actions. Still, seeing the number of rounds fired, enemy dead, and our guy's survival rate would be interesting. I'd still rather have an M-16 than a Garand, but the difference in training and use mindset between the two might tell us a lot.
FQ13
I HAVE seen those stats compared Years ago in defense of competitive shooting and the DCM program. The numbers for WWII were much lower, the numbers for WWI were lower still.
But the real deal do not "Sweep" the full auto, They fire short bursts into identified targets.
Gang Bangers who learned to sweep an area from watch bad TV tend to hit people all over the block and usually miss the target.
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Junkie,
We named her Meggie, she's going on 25 next year! Best shot of my life! Here I was just trying to poke some fun at her mother and she took me seriously!
;D ;D
That's what I'm talkin about! ;D
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I remember reading in one manual or another that the teachings that came along with an AK47 were to shoot at the other guy's right knee cap. The second round will get him about the center of his torso, and the third round will clip him in the left shoulder. Let go of the trigger, find 9 more guys to do that to, reload, repeat. ;D
"Yes, there certainly are valid applications for a full auto gun, BUT i do not believe it is for the normal combat troop (3 round auto either)."
+1 on not needing full auto for all but 2 of a 20 man squad! Not so sure about three round burst being a bad idea. Either way, I do think two of the men in a squad should have full auto for cover fire and support.
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Guys!!!
Y'all are missing the point. Spray and pray is a well-known ammo waster. Haz seems to have stumbled (Hazaritas involved? ? ? ?) across one reason why.
What you see with spray and pray is part of the transition from aimed single shot infantry weapons to the advent of the select fire or full-auto infantry weapon. In Korea, we had M1 Garands, M1 carbines, and BARs in SAW role. In Nam - a short decade later we started with M-14s and transitioned to M-16s.
As mentioned previously, it has value in keeping peoples' heads down allowing other troops to feel out the enemies' strength and find an alternate path around them. And it has changed squad level tactics too to deal with the volume of lead coming down range. I remember reading Blackhawk Down and being struck by the comment that when moving down and alley you do not hug the walls that formed the alley. When the BGs shot at you, the bullets would all cluster and travel down the surface of the wall, negating the spread of the spray and pray somewhat. A foot or two out from the wall was much safer.
There is a reason why many modern automatic weapons are now select-fire to 3-round bursts rather than full-auto. Lesson learned.
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Haz is just trying to save ammo and make the shots count..
He's training again....
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/cat-sniper-demotivational-poster-12.jpg)
Get em Haz!!!
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The theory behind the StG 44 and AK was that if your assault force is hosing the landscape it will keep the defenders heads down until you can get close enough to switch to Semi and apply EFFECTIVE fire.
Machine guns on the other hand, are not used on individuals, but Group targets where the dispersal of bullets ( one hole accuracy in an MG is a bad thing ) establishes what is called a "Beaten zone" which allows one burst to hit multiple targets.
Other than fun shooting, or historical purposes Full auto has no practical use for the individual civilian.
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" being struck by the comment that when moving down and alley you do not hug the walls that formed the alley. When the BGs shot at you, the bullets would all cluster and travel down the surface of the wall, negating the spread of the spray and pray somewhat. A foot or two out from the wall was much safer. " +1
Spot on. Rob Pincus demonstrated this at Valhalla on SGallery. You can make a bank shot to the corner pocket pretty on purpose with a bullet, same thing with car hoods and doors. Never hug your cover, unless your sleeping.
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Fully auto is a fun and exhillirating experience. But I would choose semi-auto to save on ammo. Just my personal opinion. When I left Italy, where I carried 240 rounds, to the United States, where I carried 120 I almost worried about having enough ammo. Then I realized what I could do with a M-16 on semi-auto and how accurate I was. But firing fully auto was best laying it horizontal so you did not have a rise vertically to wipe out a line of swarming insurgents/bad guys scenario. Controlled bursts, not the tri-burst bullcrap, was best. Again, just my personal opinion.