Shortcommings of the "spray and pray" philosophy

[Hazcat]

     HazJr. and I were just talking about the distance between projectiles when fired from an M60 at full auto.  With quick math we determined that at a rate of 600 RPM and a velocity of 2800 FPS there would be a distance of 280 ft. between rounds (since one round is fired every 1/10 of a second.)  When you apply this concept to the AK-47 (which also fires at a rate of 600 RPM with a muzzle velocity of about 2350 FPS) the distance between rounds is about 235 feet.

     Now, think about the niche that the Kalashnikov was supposed to fill.  Essentially: PUT GUN IN  PEASANT'S HAND.  FIRE MANY BULLETS. Is this a flawed concept?

     Think about 'sweeping' the muzzle, however far you have moved the barrel in 1/10 of a second is the angle between shots.  When you experiment with the numbers, the lateral distance between rounds is staggering, especially at any sort of distance!  How could you hope to hit someone with an army full of essentially untrained soldiers?  I realize I have not taken force of numbers into account, or the number of targets.  Thoughts?

[twyacht]

Would that be a rapid sweep, or a Rambo slow sweep,.... the rate of lateral say left to right motion.

I see the math, the unknown variable is the speed.

Something from the movie scarface, would miss every other bad guy, "spray & pray",....

But, Geez, with an M60, the rate of big ass lead going down range, can be coordinated with a slow steady sweep.

The distance of 235 feet between rds is based on what rate of sweep?

Just asking, I actually like getting the gray matter firing on all cylinders... I'm just trying to keep up.

[fightingquaker13]

    HazJr. and I were just talking about the distance between projectiles when fired from an M60 at full auto.  With quick math we determined that at a rate of 600 RPM and a velocity of 2800 FPS there would be a distance of 280 ft. between rounds (since one round is fired every 1/10 of a second.)  When you apply this concept to the AK-47 (which also fires at a rate of 600 RPM with a muzzle velocity of about 2350 FPS) the distance between rounds is about 235 feet.

     Now, think about the niche that the Kalashnikov was supposed to fill.  Essentially: PUT GUN IN  PEASANT'S HAND.  FIRE MANY BULLETS. Is this a flawed concept?

     Think about 'sweeping' the muzzle, however far you have moved the barrel in 1/10 of a second is the angle between shots.  When you experiment with the numbers, the lateral distance between rounds is staggering, especially at any sort of distance!  How could you hope to hit someone with an army full of essentially untrained soldiers?  I realize I have not taken force of numbers into account, or the number of targets.  Thoughts?

How did you get 280 feet? Assuming its held steady, the distance will be zero (of course this doesn't factor recoil, generally up and to the right which will move the poa). If its swept, the distance will vary with speed and steadiness of the sweep as well as being effected by the range (10 feet, 10 yards, 100 yards?). As far as effectiveness of spray and pray with the Ak and M-60, there are a lot of graves here and in Vietnam that say they work pretty well.
FQ13

[Pathfinder]

Classic military small unit tactics - suppressive fire combined with a flanking movement. The spray and pray would keep our heads down as others tried to flank.

The number of guns is the key factor in this. One shooter is NBD, other than a lucky hit here and there. A 100 shooters doing this puts a LOT of lead downrange, driving everyone on the receiving end to ground.

[Hazcat]

GUYS!  There will be 280 feet between rounds whether I 'sweep' or not.  That is based on the rate of fire and feet per second of the rounds.

Round one leaves, the next round is 280 feet in trail.  Add 'sweep' and what is your expected coverage?

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

GUYS!  There will be 280 feet between rounds whether I 'sweep' or not.  That is based on the rate of fire and feet per second of the rounds.

Round one leaves, the next round is 280 feet in trail.  Add 'sweep' and what is your expected coverage?

Ah! I missunderstood. You are talking 280 feet between rounds in terms of time of  impact. I read 280 between rounds laterally (or vertically) in terms of point of impact, not when they impact. My bad.
FQ13 

[Hazcat]

Ah! I missunderstood. You are talking 280 feet between rounds in terms of time of  impact. I read 280 between rounds laterally (or vertically) in terms of point of impact, not when they impact. My bad.
FQ13 

Exactly, FQ.

So think about 'sweeping' and how often (even at 20 yards) are you actually gonna hit someone?  Think about it.

[1911 Junkie]

Instead of distance between bullets, you need to think about time between bullets.

We've played with full auto stuff and it IS fun. I just don't think it is very practical (for most of our purposes).

You can empty an MP5 mag in about 1.5 seconds. If you have a string of 10 plates you have to time your sweep to cover those 10 plates in that 1.5 seconds. It is very difficult to hit all the plates on full auto with a single mag.

Shooting man against man, the guy shooting semi usually beats the guy running auto.

[TAB]

1/10 a second its not alot of time. 

[fightingquaker13]

Exactly, FQ.

So think about 'sweeping' and how often (even at 20 yards) are you actually gonna hit someone?  Think about it.

And that is actually a scarily good point. I would counter though with my paintball days back in college. Semi-auto 300 fps (I'm not even going to do the math). Thing is you could effectively light someone up even if they were behind a bush or something, as if not the first, the tenth would make it through (one of the perks of being on a sponsored team was free ammo ). On a running target the .68 caliber balls were too slow and you had to lead a lot, but even here, if you aimed about 4 feet ahead and started about knee level, given your trigger squeeze and grip would pull up and left (me being a lefty) it would work more often than not.
FQ13