The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: texcaliber on October 23, 2009, 10:39:47 AM
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I have a huge problem and do not seem to be getting anywhere with Jim Scoutten so...... here is the back story.
George Sutton has a huge safety issue that was brought to my attention by my 7yr old daughter. While watching your show she looked at me and then just before she talked looked back a the TV. Relieved that I could continue to watch the show she then while not taking her eyes off the screen says,"Daddy must be nice to be a Pro.......". So as any good father would promote shooting sports I said all Pros. have to work hard and anyone can do it with hard work and good ethics has a chance. Feeling great about my advice my 7yr. old hit me with a whopper. "So when I become a Pro. I do not need to wear safety gear and can do unsafe things with a gun???". HOLY CRAP NO! was my reaction but my response was a simple "no". So to make the long story short she told me that the "old guy pro doesn't have to wear safety gear when he shoots and that guy tried blowing up his own face." She stated this with zero emotion and my jaw was so unhinged you could fit your fist in. The only thing I could do was question ........"what ?!?" So as calm as Eastwood she looked away form the TV and said "that old guy never wears ear or eye protection ever and last time we watched him shoot his gun upside down." Now I was sure she was wrong but after a long and drawn out search sure enough my little girl was right, George Sutton shoots sans eye protection even when lighting blackpowder off in front of his eyes in the upside down shot. I WAS FLOORED!
Now that you brought this upon me why don't you give me some advice to preach to my little one.
Thank you,
Their response: I am forwarding this on to the producers responsible, but may I suggest that Mr. Sutton shoots in the style of the old time frontiersmen and they did not use ear or eye protection. Certainly not the way I would shoot but this is his choice. -John
John Scoutten
Series Producer
Shooting USA
Sighting In with Shooting USA
John@tier1-media.com
615-771-1060 ext. 231
www.ShootingUSA.com
To wit i said:
NO offense but may I suggest that "Evil Roy" along with every SASS member uses Ear and Eye protection unlike the "old time" westerners/persons of the era! EVEN BOB MUNDON!
which i got a mobile email:
From: john@tier1-media.com
To: XXXXXX
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: safety issue
If you intend no offense, why are you yelling?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Which i finally sent:
Subject: Re: safety issue
Poor manners. My apologies. I was insulted with the defense of lack of safety.
----- Original Message -----
The END!
So what do you all think I should do? How or what do I say because Scoutten and his crew were nothing but abbrasive. My 7 yr. old is the main concerien in my opinion. I do not give a hoot if some guy in pretend land blinds himself..........or worse. As a matter of fact other strangers can have at it also, but eventually the whole Carma coming full circle is bugging me and i have to get this figured out.
Thank you very much in advance. I just hope none have taken offense. If you have PM me and I can either apologize or offend ya in person. ;D
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My $.02 -
Use this to remind your daughter that:
1. Some people are stupid
b. Some people with guns are stupid; and
iii. Not every expert is one.
A great learning moment, good on her!!!! And yet another opportunity to say - do as I say and do, not what the so-called experts say.
I would also get back to Jim Scouten and let him know that what people do privately is one thing, putting on a public show requires some measure of consistency of message. Safety is safety - Period! You may also want to remind him that his son is a twit!!!! :D
Or not, your call. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My $.02 -
Use this to remind your daughter that:
1. Some people are stupid
b. Some people with guns are stupid; and
iii. Not every expert is one.
A great learning moment, good on her!!!! And yet another opportunity to say - do as I say and do, not what the so-called experts say.
I would also get back to Jim Scouten and let him know that what people do privately is one thing, putting on a public show requires some measure of consistency of message. Safety is safety - Period! You may also want to remind him that his son is a twit!!!! :D
Or not, your call. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That fact should be fairly obvious to anybody who watches the show. And to be honest, unless Jim is equally twitish, he is already painfully aware. Probably why the boy has the job he has, cuz dad knows he wouldn't be able to earn a living on his own.
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Congratulate your daughter for being aware of PROPER safety procedures, and point out that most self proclaimed "experts" are idiots. If she wants examples the Govt should supply enough to make your point.
Meanwhile the rest of us should dump on them as well.
I just sent the following to the shows producer and to the series producer.
The fact that I had to make it up should not detract from the value of the point being illustrated ;D
I would like to thank you for undermining my safety instructions to my son and spoiling what should have been an enjoyable bonding experience for us.
Last Sunday we took my T/C Hawken to the range so my son could learn to shoot Black powder, that fell apart when he refused to where his eye and ear protection because, as he said," the guy on TV (George Sutton ) never wears that junk, and he's an expert."
Needless to say we did not shoot.
As an affiliate of the NRA you have a responsibility to your audience and the gun community in general to provide a GOOD example. You are failing miserably.
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Use it as a teaching tool. Use all shooting shows as teaching tools. Many shooters do almost everything correct, but how often do you see any shooter on TV check a gun to see if it is loaded outside of the cowboy shooters with their rifles and shotguns being kept open. We have a couple out of DownRange that are horrible about sweeping themselves and at least one with worse muzzle control than an epileptic ... no offense to epileptics.
I see more safety errors on these shows than I see correct. Even American Rifleman with their constant "remote camera" notices have their share of ooooops.
Swallow hard, send notes to the producers, and make it a game with your daughter to find the errors and explain the correct way.
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Received a reply :
Thomas:
I imagine as a viewer, you’re aware of our safety practices in the Shooting USA hour block. We always wear safety “eyes and ears” in our demonstrations of guns and ammunition. That’s to set a good example when we’re inviting people to join in the shooting sports, or consider a new product that’s caught our interest.
But we don’t (and can’t) extend that example into certain shooting competitions and demonstrations. Example: NRA / CMP service rifle competition does not require eye protection and the top Army team shoots without eye protection, more like combat conditions. It’s their choice and we don’t try to effect a change in their practices.
In the case of the Impossible Shots series, that begins with a strong warning to not attempt to duplicate the events portrayed in the series, we let the pro shooters be who they prefer to be. George Sutton dresses to portray a French/Canadian Trapper from the period of the late 1700s. He’s consistent in that portrayal by not wearing protective glasses. As you will remember, there were no shooting glasses in that time, with the exception of tiny corrective lenses like those Ben Franklin wore. So we let George be George, with the warning to not try this at home.
Jim
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Pure BS. They PAY George for his segment. They can (and should) demand proper safety.
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My Rebuttal :
By that reasoning you would allow a child molester to rape children on your show in the name of "Allowing him to be himself.
The Fudd like attitude that ignores safety is more harm than help to the Gun rights movement. If you do not insist on responsible behavior by your representatives then you are as much a part of the problem as those 2 boys at Columbine .
It may surprise you to know that at least as far back as the turn of the century (1900) KNOWLEDGEABLE shooters were making their own ear plugs. The Marine Corps mandated hearing protection at least as far back as my enlistment in the 70's and Furthermore during my time running range details in the National Guard in the early 90's any one who showed up with out eyes and earsdid not shoot.
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So now we will probably get a disclaimer pop up such as the ones that say "Remote Camera".
Might be a good lesson for your Daughter that some folks are just plain stubborn and will not look out for themselves.
People still smoke, fail to wear seat belts, or helmets on bikes, or do any number of things that could hurt themselves even though safety practices are common knowledge.
Can't save everyone, and some folks were meant to be an example for the rest of us.
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So now we will probably get a disclaimer pop up such as the ones that say "Remote Camera".
Might be a good lesson for your Daughter that some folks are just plain stubborn and will not look out for themselves.
People still smoke, fail to wear seat belts, or helmets on bikes, or do any number of things that could hurt themselves even though safety practices are common knowledge.
Can't save everyone, and some folks were meant to be an example for the rest of us.
Maybe so but they aren't doing it on shows that promote those activities as fun and safe for the Family.
No one cares what he does on his own time, but for the few minutes he is on screen he is representing the entire shooting community and has a duty to conduct himself in a responsible manner or be Zumbo'd.
PS I got an answer to my rebuttal ;
That’s a first, Tom. Nobody has ever called me a Fudd in 16 years of Gun TV, nor equated our work to Columbine.
Can’t say it’s been a pleasure chatting with you.
Time to send a e mail to their sponsors. ::)
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KNOWLEDGEABLE shooters were making their own ear plugs. The Marine Corps mandated hearing protection at least as far back as my enlistment in the 70's
Grandpa, used crumpled Lucky Strike butts in his ears in the service.
"Amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. If you've seen police qualifications, you know this is false. Amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train no more than they are paid to."
E. Charles
As a paid shooter, I wonder how the insurance requirements are handled, if he has a Kaboom that results in eye damage ???
I like Zumbo'd. ;D
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I don't know......... is that the message I should give. "Some people are just dumb arses and can and most likely will void themself form the job opportunities of your future." Or "what we have here is a failure to communicate....... some people like to play make-believe and not follow the 10commandments of safety........because they are professional/special." What this really shows is that we are to follow the "RULES" at all times unless you are better in some way(money,power,statues,ability,not a REAL world (fill in blank) etc.,etc.) even in the shooting world. Not the message that I want to promote to my little one.
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I think the message can be compared to children that obey and those that don't. Right is right and wrong is wrong, no matter who you are. I don't care what he is doing or how he is doing it, this is how WE are going to do it.
I deal with this at our own range. I love working with the kids, but I hate helping on FFA and 4-H nights. The two adults that work with this don't mandate ears. "They're only .22's" is the comment I hear from them and the kids will repeat it (actually a kid hit me with that, and while I was all over him the adult said it, and I knew where the kid got it). My response - If I'm here, and if I'm going to ge a part of it, and if I'm going to tally the scores and donate the awards everyone will wear eyes and ears! Don't like it ... TOUGH - THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU LEARNED WHEN I TAUGHT YOU FIREARM SAFETY!!!
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Maybe so but they aren't doing it on shows that promote those activities as fun and safe for the Family.
No one cares what he does on his own time, but for the few minutes he is on screen he is representing the entire shooting community and has a duty to conduct himself in a responsible manner or be Zumbo'd.
PS I got an answer to my rebuttal ;
That’s a first, Tom. Nobody has ever called me a Fudd in 16 years of Gun TV, nor equated our work to Columbine.
Can’t say it’s been a pleasure chatting with you.
Time to send a e mail to their sponsors.
The abrasive nature in the response and how dare you attitude is what is chaffing my cheeks. :-[
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Tex,
I know what you are going through. HazJr can also 'spot the wrong' at 1000 yards! Kids are like that, they take Papas' word as law and examine everyone else for following 'the law' (as should be). HazJr got to see me as an RO telling long time club members (and even some club officers!) to follow the rules or pack it up.
Best you can do is tell her that if YOU were there he WOULD follow the rules. That no matter what, the rules are there for a reason.
That is why I was never big on 'thrill shows' like motorcycle jumps and such. The old 'I'm an expert' BS never cut it with me cause you weren't an 'expert' when you started.
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Maybe so but they aren't doing it on shows that promote those activities as fun and safe for the Family.
No one cares what he does on his own time, but for the few minutes he is on screen he is representing the entire shooting community and has a duty to conduct himself in a responsible manner or be Zumbo'd.
PS I got an answer to my rebuttal ;
That’s a first, Tom. Nobody has ever called me a Fudd in 16 years of Gun TV, nor equated our work to Columbine.
Can’t say it’s been a pleasure chatting with you.
Time to send a e mail to their sponsors. ::)
It could be a distinct pleasure chatting with you, Tom, if he wasn't such a Fudd on this particular issue. Hell, I've always enjoyed our chats.
I can only assume that the terse nature of his reply is due to the old addage, "The Truth Hurts".
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I sent the e mail exchange to the sponsors of Shooting USA with the following note :
Neither I or my Family and friends will be watching Shooting USA from now on due to their lackadaisical attitude toward safe shooting practices, specifically the segments where George Sutton shoots black powder rifles with out eye or ear protection.
Such irresponsible behavior brings discredit to the entire shooting community .
Below please find the exchange I had with the shows producer ;
It could be a distinct pleasure chatting with you, Tom, if he wasn't such a Fudd on this particular issue. Hell, I've always enjoyed our chats.
I can only assume that the terse nature of his reply is due to the old addage, "The Truth Hurts".
I'm REALLY proud that I refrained from pointing out that his "lack of enjoyment" stems from being a pompous a$$hole ;D
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Maybe so but they aren't doing it on shows that promote those activities as fun and safe for the Family.
No one cares what he does on his own time, but for the few minutes he is on screen he is representing the entire shooting community and has a duty to conduct himself in a responsible manner or be Zumbo'd.
PS I got an answer to my rebuttal ;
That’s a first, Tom. Nobody has ever called me a Fudd in 16 years of Gun TV, nor equated our work to Columbine.
Can’t say it’s been a pleasure chatting with you.
Time to send a e mail to their sponsors. ::)
Take the high road with Scoutten (it tends to annoy the living hell out of people who have gotten emotional). Remind him that you didn't call him a Fudd and it is not about whether he is or is not a Fudd. Nor is it about Columbine. Ask him to stay focused on the core issue - the improper and dangerous example his show is setting for all viewers of all ages. Maybe he can't tell the Army Team (and why not - they wear lenses/goggles and earplugs in combat) but he sure as hell can tell people he is paying for their service to present a reasonable and safe exhibition - and they should or they don't appear.
Then tell him that you are contacting his sponsors over his reckless videos and in spite of everything else, you do not hope to see anyone getting hurt on YouTube. Perhaps remind him as well of the firestorm over James Yaeger's allowing - and probably even posting - a video with a photographer kneeling by the targets as people were flinging live rounds at the paper.
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All I can think as I teach teenagers basic firearms safe handling on the weekends is that situations like this make it harder for me to get parents to consent to allowing there kids to participate. I make it clear that these showman are experienced, capable shooters who understand the risks and choose to pursue these acts. These are not the acts that should be attempted by anyone with a hint of common sense.
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I see the show as an entertainment show, not a "how to" show. I would not expect to see them wearing safety gear any more than I would expect an actor firing a weapon in a movie to wear safety gear. They are putting on a show to entertain us, and if they feel they enhance their performance by not wearing safety gear then so be it. It is like a high wire act not using a net, it might be dumb, but it adds to the excitement.
With adult supervision, I would not expect a kid to mimic their lack of safety gear any more than they would mimic the type of "impossible shot" being performed. If a kid thinks he doesn't have to wear safety gear because somebody on TV doesn't, then maybe that kid also thinks it is okay to try to do trick shots and quick draws, and other potentially un-safe activities that he might have seen on TV or in a movie. In that case I would say don't let the kid watch the show.
I am okay with the show as is, and I don't need disclaimers to tell me the acts are dangerous and unwise. Of course, I don't have any kids, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
BTW, I am not implying that the shots are in any way fake, just that they are meant to entertain us, not educate us.
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Pure BS. They PAY George for his segment. They can (and should) demand proper safety.
THAT is BS, too. TV shouldn't promote illegal activity, but adults still have the freedom to do or say what they want.
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I see the show as an entertainment show, not a "how to" show. I would not expect to see them wearing safety gear any more than I would expect an actor firing a weapon in a movie to wear safety gear. They are putting on a show to entertain us, and if they feel they enhance their performance by not wearing safety gear then so be it. It is like a high wire act not using a net, it might be dumb, but it adds to the excitement.
With adult supervision, I would not expect a kid to mimic their lack of safety gear any more than they would mimic the type of "impossible shot" being performed. If a kid thinks he doesn't have to wear safety gear because somebody on TV doesn't, then maybe that kid also thinks it is okay to try to do trick shots and quick draws, and other potentially un-safe activities that he might have seen on TV or in a movie. In that case I would say don't let the kid watch the show.
I am okay with the show as is, and I don't need disclaimers to tell me the acts are dangerous and unwise. Of course, I don't have any kids, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
BTW, I am not implying that the shots are in any way fake, just that they are meant to entertain us, not educate us.
That reasoning may be OK for"Bonanza" or "The Big Valley", but when these alleged "experts" appear on shows like Shooting USA, or American Rifleman TV they are representing ALL of us in the shooting community. While YOU may not mind, I take offense at being presented as a fool who disregards personal protective gear appropriate to the activity.
I do not care WHAT era the old fart wishes to portray, and I do not care what qualifications he claims, If he were on MY show, or MY range, he would comply with the safety rules or he would leave.
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Tex,
I know what you are going through. HazJr can also 'spot the wrong' at 1000 yards! Kids are like that, they take Papas' word as law and examine everyone else for following 'the law' (as should be). HazJr got to see me as an RO telling long time club members (and even some club officers!) to follow the rules or pack it up.
Best you can do is tell her that if YOU were there he WOULD follow the rules. That no matter what, the rules are there for a reason.
That is why I was never big on 'thrill shows' like motorcycle jumps and such. The old 'I'm an expert' BS never cut it with me cause you weren't an 'expert' when you started.
Good points Haz and Tom hits the nail on the head.
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THAT is BS, too. TV shouldn't promote illegal activity, but adults still have the freedom to do or say what they want.
With freedom comes responsibility.
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Hey Tom,
You better write the History Channel too. I'm watching Lock N' Load with R. Lee Ermey that I recorded earlier tonight.
Show is titled "Rifle" and they are shooting sans eye wear. Everything from the Brown Bess to 1860 Henry's, 1860 Spencer, 1853 Enfields, 1861 Springfield, 1907 Enfield,
I'm still watching it......... actually, a few of his guests are in some scenes using glasses.
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Done ;D
Gunny Ermey,
As a Glock representative and frequent shooter you KNOW you should be wearing Eye and Ear protection when firing.
And don't give me any of that "how we did it in the "Old Corps" crap. I served from 77 - 80 and know better. In fact in the 30's and before the "Old Breed" shooters made their own ear plugs from bees wax and cotton balls.
You are a representative of the entire shooting community and a role model for many, using proper personal protective gear is as much a duty as staying awake on Guard duty.
SEMPER FI !
PS. I exchanged several E Mails with Jim Scouton yesterday on the same subject and arrived at the opinion he is a pompous asshole .
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" PS. I exchanged several E Mails with Jim Scouton yesterday on the same subject and arrived at the opinion he is a (pompous) Pompadour asshole "
There fixed it.
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I just do not think it matters to the Scoutten crew.
Also I would like to know what the DRTV heads think on the subject.
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I just do not think it matters to the Scoutten crew.
Also I would like to know what the DRTV heads think on the subject.
Well, the Head Cheese around here is the one who first used the word pompadour IIRC. ;D
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did a site search and did not find
"the Head Cheese around here is the one who first used the word pompadour IIRC"
sorry man
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did a site search and did not find sorry man
Same here, it may have been in the blog or on the podcast .
Check back around April and august of 08.
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Well, the Head Cheese around here is the one who first used the word pompadour IIRC. ;D
It was Marshal.... http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3379.msg39126#msg39126
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Same here, it may have been in the blog or on the podcast .
Check back around April and august of 08.
MB refers to it quite often in the podcasts, or at least one and formaldehyde makes me listen to it over and over and over and Mb\B refers to it quite often in the podcasts, or at least one and formaldehyde makes me listen to it over and over and over and MB refers to it quite ... ???
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did a site search and did not find sorry man
It was Marshal.... http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3379.msg39126#msg39126
Wankers!!! ;D
I remember MB using that phrase shortly after I first started listening to him, so that had to be back in 2007 sometime. It was verbal, not written, and I remember wondering a bit about whom he was talking. It came to me next time I watched (unsafely)ShoootingUSA.
I recall him mentioning it in the blog too a way back.
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Hey Tom,
You better write the History Channel too. I'm watching Lock N' Load with R. Lee Ermey that I recorded earlier tonight.
Show is titled "Rifle" and they are shooting sans eye wear. Everything from the Brown Bess to 1860 Henry's, 1860 Spencer, 1853 Enfields, 1861 Springfield, 1907 Enfield,
I'm still watching it......... actually, a few of his guests are in some scenes using glasses.
How about when he points a very visibly loaded revolver at the camera, which is not locked down on a tripod, but in a camera man's hand?
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Done ;D
Gunny Ermey,
As a Glock representative and frequent shooter you KNOW you should be wearing Eye and Ear protection when firing.
And don't give me any of that "how we did it in the "Old Corps" crap. I served from 77 - 80 and know better. In fact in the 30's and before the "Old Breed" shooters made their own ear plugs from bees wax and cotton balls.
You are a representative of the entire shooting community and a role model for many, using proper personal protective gear is as much a duty as staying awake on Guard duty.
SEMPER FI !
PS. I exchanged several E Mails with Jim Scouton yesterday on the same subject and arrived at the opinion he is a pompous asshole .
Got a reply today from A&E
At 11:35 AM 10/24/2009, you wrote:
> better. In fact in the 30's and before the "Old Breed" shooters made their own ear plugs from bees wax
Dear Thomas.
Thank you for your recent comments concerning The History Channel program LOCK N' LOAD.
It is important to us to receive feedback from our viewers, and we appreciate your taking the time to contact us.
Cordially,
Viewer Relations
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Canned reply
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Got a reply today from A&E
At 11:35 AM 10/24/2009, you wrote:
> better. In fact in the 30's and before the "Old Breed" shooters made their own ear plugs from bees wax
Dear Thomas.
Thank you for your recent comments concerning The History Channel program LOCK N' LOAD.
It is important to us to receive feedback from our viewers, and we appreciate your taking the time to contact us.
Cordially,
Viewer Relations
As silly as it sounds, I would rather get this BS than Scouttens arrogant and pompous attitude toward the subject.
tex
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I agree with both of you, I could not find a link direct to the Gunny or the show, so I sent it to the generic comment site and expected a canned, "we got your note" message, When R. Lee does get back to me I do not expect the pompous BS I got from Scouton.
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That fact should be fairly obvious to anybody who watches the show. And to be honest, unless Jim is equally twitish, he is already painfully aware. Probably why the boy has the job he has, cuz dad knows he wouldn't be able to earn a living on his own.
Classy
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I've been a trainer in the photographic industry for a very long time, initially as an instructor on photo lab equipment. We were dealing with some potentially dangerous chemicals that were very safe if you took the proper precautions. That included wearing personal protective equipment (PPE) whenever there was a possibility of coming in contact with the chemicals. I knew a lot of other trainers that would insist on the students in their classes wearing PPE, but when they themselves were demonstrating chemical handling never wore them. They would inevitably explain that they had been "doing this for a long time," or "a little won't hurt you," or some other garbage excuse not to wear it. But they would insist on the class wearing them every time. May times I would find myself visiting one of these stores and witnessing them completely ignoring the safety (and OSHA-mandated) protocols. When I'd ask them why they weren't protecting themselves, they'd say "The trainer didn't wear this stuff, and he said it wasn't dangerous anyway."
My point is, you can tell someone about a safety procedure until you're blue in the face, but if you aren't willing to follow the same precautions, EVERY TIME, WITHOUT EXCEPTION OR EXCUSE, then all the disclaimers in the world aren't going to get any message across at all.
The expression "Practice what you preach" is so true, isn't it? It's a lot better guide than "Do as I say, not as I do."
Something to think about.
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I thought this was a dead tread, I am glad to see it's still providing thought on safety. The insults and other nonsense is moot at best. The main point is SAFETY, and how I should promote those practices to my little one, even though the "Pros" have a blatant disregard of safety protocol. Being abrasive on the safety, or lack there of, is instigating at best. Not to mention the hypocritical nature of it.
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@Texcaliber: If you refer to my original e-mail response you will note two things. 1st: I am not the producer of Impossible Shots but I would be sure and forward your concerns to the Producers and 2nd: I would not under any circumstances shoot anything much less a flint-lock with out eye or ear protection. I am sorry that my response was not satisfactory and you felt the need to post our exchange on a forum that, to a rather well know extent, harbors a rather hostile view of our television product.
And for the record, around here we refer to the "pompadour" as the "hair helmet"
@BAC: George Sutton is not a trainer, he is an entertainer.
After all of that I agree 100% with the statement that George Sutton is endangering himself when he shoots without eye protection and my initial reaction to the first bit of video i saw of him was "seriously?! no eye pro?" but again Impossible Shots is not my show.
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Completely missed the point. :o
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I am sorry that my response was not satisfactory and you felt the need to post our exchange on a forum that, to a rather well know extent, harbors a rather hostile view of our television product.
Do you have a better suggestion as to how "it" should of been handled, I thought I pointed out my delima and then you respond with a tongue and cheek response. I am forwarding this on to the producers responsible, but may I suggest that Mr. Sutton shoots in the style of the old time frontiersmen and they did not use ear or eye protection. Certainly not the way I would shoot but this is his choice. -John
Now I do not have a problem with this forum or members views wither i agree or not. Not one has stated a gripe of product that hasn't been founded, and then argued, with rebuttals. So it as most things on forums, are opinions. Yet not one agrees with allowing the improper safety issue. I am not perfect, yet ;D , so no joking , bad feelings, he said/she said........ give me better advice and I will hear you out.
Tex
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Count me among those who do not think it is a good idea for George to shoot with out eye or ear protection.
Ask George why he chooses to shoot this way and he will tell you the same thing I told you.
Ask me why it ended up on TV and all I can tell you is this is not my show but I know the guys who do it and I will pass your concerns along to them.
Does George Sutton portray himself as a firearms instructor or trainer? No.
Should anyone emulate what George does as part of his act? No, but it's a free country.
Should anyone look to George, or any other exhibition shooter, for lessons in firearm safety? I'll let you answer that one yourself.
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So in , once again, your opinion it is wrong to allow children and most adults(my opinion) to watch your show.
Should anyone look to George, or any other exhibition shooter, for lessons in firearm safety?
Due to the awful and many safety neglect issues and lack of most kids and many adults ability to use self control when trying to emulate the "pros" .
Of course on many occasions and over many generations I have, probably you also, heard how children were influenced by this one or multiple exhibition shooter/s. Should anyone emulate what George does as part of his act? No, but it's a free country.
How about Jerry MicCulick, Bob Munden, or any of the other influential shooters you use on your show. As a matter of fact it seems to me, correct me if wrong, no "Pro Shooter" should be seen or used as a positive outlook on young shooters. YOUNG SHOOTERS! This has been the point from the beginning. Not teens or young adults but rather preteens and youths.
P.S. please do not take a fit over the yelling this time, it was used toward the statement.
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When we use the "Quick reply box there are no buttons for Italic or Bold so many of us just use capitals for EMPHASIS.
Then of course there is FQ who's cap lock has a mind of it's own ;D
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No offense but.....
Watching an exhibition shooter for gun safety tips is like watching Evil Knievel for safe driving tips. Use this as a learning experience for your daughter not a time to slam a show for doing what it says it is doing..... exhibition shooting.
If you do not approve and do not see the writing that says do not do this at home then do not watch the show.
Just my .02
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So in , once again, your opinion it is wrong to allow children and most adults(my opinion) to watch your show.
Not so, I simply suggest that one should watch Impossible Shots for the entertainment value, and under no circumstances for instruction.
Of course on many occasions and over many generations I have, probably you also, heard how children were influenced by this one or multiple exhibition shooter/s. How about Jerry MicCulick, Bob Munden, or any of the other influential shooters you use on your show. As a matter of fact it seems to me, correct me if wrong, no "Pro Shooter" should be seen or used as a positive outlook on young shooters. YOUNG SHOOTERS! This has been the point from the beginning. Not teens or young adults but rather preteens and youths.
Sure, sit with Tom Knapp for more than a minute and you will here about how he started out trying to be Herb Parsons, does that mean that you or any other parent should give their young shooter a flint-lock and let them shoot it without eye-pro so they can be like George? Absurd
At the end of the day it is the parent that must decide how and what their youth shooter is going to shoot. If a TV show is able to undermine that responsibility, then perhaps there are bigger problems underlying.
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But we don’t (and can’t) extend that example into certain shooting competitions and demonstrations. Example: NRA / CMP service rifle competition does not require eye protection and the top Army team shoots without eye protection, more like combat conditions.
Not really. NRA rules (high power rifle) do require eye and ear protection. And while CMP rules (not NRA) does not address eye and ear protection, the range owner or the match director may and in local cases does require same.
And this is the burr I have about CMP, if it's suppose to be "combat conditions" why do they allow those stiff "shooting" jackets and gloves?
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No offense but.....
Watching an exhibition shooter for gun safety tips is like watching Evil Knievel for safe driving tips. Use this as a learning experience for your daughter not a time to slam a show for doing what it says it is doing..... exhibition shooting.
If you do not approve and do not see the writing that says do not do this at home then do not watch the show.
Just my .02
No offense taken, but I love how you thought you didn't mean any. As for a Evil Knievel comparison he was the front runner of safety for his sport at the time. Which is why the man crashed so many times and lived to become the Icon he is. No offense but........ to argue an "Stunt Rider to Shooter" is absurd at best and shows a true lack of effort toward topic, ??? especially when one whom is the leader of safety of his field and the other is sans safety entirely.
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At the end of the day it is the parent that must decide how and what their youth shooter is going to shoot. If a TV show is able to undermine that responsibility, then perhaps there are bigger problems underlying.
By this statement you use the same argument that every politician seems to use in the downfall of society. People of all ages have free will and if a 7yr old can question the safety issue, I decided it necessary to take a little more proactive approach then someone like If you do not approve and do not see the writing that says do not do this at home then do not watch the show.
Just my .02
to make sure to bring it to your and others attention .
I am far from political, but I tried my best. You tell me "period correct B.S. and its what he wants, can't argue with that." and the fuse on my tampoon was officially lit. Now I am not looking for retribution, apologies, autographs, blame, hard feelings or "proof" that this show is better/wrong/lesser than compared to that one. As sure as it is cold out side in NewEngland, I am not looking for parenting advise from those whom have not a clue.
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So ultimately what are you looking for?
Make your kid wear eye-pro.
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I think he is seeking equal dedication to safety from people who are supposed to be PROMOTING the shooting sports, not making the practitioners look like a bunch of careless chumps.
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I'm going all the way back to the beginning, and this will be lengthy ... Not sorry about either!
I have been to several matches with professional photographers and a couple with a film crew. I understand these people make their living capturing these images and producing media. However, they need to keep in mind that they are subject to the same safety rules as anyone else on the range. The same goes for the shooters. Many a sport super star has complained about being looked at as a role model, but when you reach a certain level that is what happens to you. Like it or not those that become the "spokesman" of the sport or industry through their media attention need to live up to this privilege.
#1 Media type - You need to decide if you are there to produce a show or be a part of the activity. It is possible to do both. I have seen photographers and film crews warned to stay back in safe areas; I have seen Range Officers (RO's) need to decide if they should penalize a competitor by stopping the course of fire because a crew puts themselves in a potentially dangerous position. This gets so bad that I have sat in RO briefing and heard warnings about the media, and in shooter briefing I have heard apologies in advance for the possibility that an RO may use the stop command based on an observer (camera crew) rather than a DQ by the shooter.
#2 Producers and Editors - You need to take a lesson from "do it yourself" (DIY) shows. To quote Norm Abram, "Read, Understand and Follow all the safety rules for your power tools." "And, the most important safety rule is to wear these ... Safety glasses!" Compare this to Tom Knapp and his disclaimer, that he states at the beginning of and during every event he participates in "Do not try this at home" "I am a trained and sponsored professional." By this he is stating that he has worked with others, evaluated his performance and is subject to the liability issues of sponsors that are both paying his expenses, but also providing with his grocery money. The next statement from DIY is the roll that safety guards and/or shields have been removed for photographic clarity. Compare this to American Rifleman and their little on screen statement "Remote Camera."
#3 Overall Media - You need to decide if you are in business to promote the hunting and shooting sports, or are you there just to cover an event and make a buck off the interest and profession of others. If you care about the sport and the industry, beyond the buck, you need to insure it is done properly.
#4 Viewers - We need to decide what we want out of the productions. If we want correct information and to use it as a learning tool, we need to hold the producers accountable. If all we are looking for is general entertainment we need to accept it as that.
#5 Everyone - We all need to develop a little tougher skin and accept the criticisms of others. Whether it is a producer that has been called on the carpet for something they put on the airwaves or in print, or if it is Mr. Bogan that has been slammed for calling someone on something. Also, there is nothing wrong with the anonymity that forums give, but we need to not be trolls ... and this is a thread that could very easily head that way.
Out of "daddy" mode, but still pissed over much of this situation!
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So ultimately what are you looking for?
First, Look, I do not know if there is a something other than that of effort on your behalf.
Second, smart-mouth-no-sh*t statements like this Make your kid wear eye-pro.
leave a bad feeling toward you and your intelligence. Did i offend you because if so send me a personal message and I will send you my Cell# ASAP so you articulate it better. There is no need to insult my intelligence or parenting with verbal barbs no matter how subtle.
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As sure as it is cold out side in NewEngland, I am not looking for parenting advise from those whom have not a clue.
Here is the first direct shot at anyone's parenting skill.
You made this a public matter when you took our e-mail correspondence and posted it on this forum, now you want me to PM you for a phone number so we can take it back private? Well you have my office number and my e-mail so I'll leave that ball in your court.
Here is my point once again. The Impossible Shots TV program is strictly for entertainment, and under no circumstances should it be considered instruction, sport, or competition. The exhibitionists portrayed on the show are doing their act, and at times the act is dangerous. Doubly so in the case of George Sutton because he does his act without the benefit of eye or ear protection. Just like it says at the beginning of the show, no one should attempt to recreate or duplicate these stunts.
The deviation from the safety guidelines for shooting that you as a parent have spelled out and are enforcing with your youth shooter should be simple to explain. "That guy on the TV is doing it his way, but that is not our way and this is why..." If at that point your youth shooter still refuses to follow the rules that you dictate than a new hobby is probably in order.
As far as me making an effort, I can't say it any more clearly than that is not my show. I have no more say about what happens on that show than you or anyone else. I produce the Sighting In half hour and the episodes of Shooting USA that involve practical shooting. The safety guidelines for the shows I produce are not in question here. I made my opinion known before George Sutton debuted on Impossible Shots and it went by the way side.
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Here is the first direct shot at anyone's parenting skill.
You made this a public matter when you took our e-mail correspondence and posted it on this forum, now you want me to PM you for a phone number so we can take it back private? Well you have my office number and my e-mail so I'll leave that ball in your court.
Here is my point once again. The Impossible Shots TV program is strictly for entertainment, and under no circumstances should it be considered instruction, sport, or competition. The exhibitionists portrayed on the show are doing their act, and at times the act is dangerous. Doubly so in the case of George Sutton because he does his act without the benefit of eye or ear protection. Just like it says at the beginning of the show, no one should attempt to recreate or duplicate these stunts.
The deviation from the safety guidelines for shooting that you as a parent have spelled out and are enforcing with your youth shooter should be simple to explain. "That guy on the TV is doing it his way, but that is not our way and this is why..." If at that point your youth shooter still refuses to follow the rules that you dictate than a new hobby is probably in order.
As far as me making an effort, I can't say it any more clearly than that is not my show. I have no more say about what happens on that show than you or anyone else. I produce the Sighting In half hour and the episodes of Shooting USA that involve practical shooting. The safety guidelines for the shows I produce are not in question here. I made my opinion known before George Sutton debuted on Impossible Shots and it went by the way side.
Two points, First off, if it isn't your show, why are you getting so defensively hostile ?
Second, since you basically agree that shooting, especially flintlocks, with out proper safety gear is stupid, same question. Why are you getting so defensively hostile ?
Actually I have a third point as well and that is that the whole point of this thread revolves around M58's #4
"#4 Viewers - We need to decide what we want out of the productions. If we want correct information and to use it as a learning tool, we need to hold the producers accountable. If all we are looking for is general entertainment we need to accept it as that."
It seems we want to see our sport portrayed SAFELY. We have written to hold the producers accountable and they brushed our our concerns, which I think says something about their view of the show (as just a source of money ) and their viewers (as chumps who will watch what ever they feel like producing ).
If that IS their attitude, and not just a mistaken impression, I have a tip for them.
There's far more money in porn.
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You made this a public matter when you took our e-mail correspondence and posted it on this forum, now you want me to PM you for a phone number so we can take it back private?
Just to make sure you are not speed-reading my post reread it then ask yourself if I want anything, that is including a PM, from you?
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Two points, First off, if it isn't your show, why are you getting so defensively hostile ?
Second, since you basically agree that shooting, especially flintlocks, with out proper safety gear is stupid, same question. Why are you getting so defensively hostile ?
I hate to say that the nepotism digs fly all over me, that is my fault and for that I apologize.
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I hate to say that the nepotism digs fly all over me, that is my fault and for that I apologize.
It took you 1hour and 15min. to find the word nepotism. As for the context of digs,which seem to me, in total regard to subject and mor than half expected by yourself. Do we as a forum need to be more subtle for you so they do not.... "fly all over me"
If so you can at least answer with a straight-forward response? Or am i placing to much nepotism in your ability to respond?
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I hate to say that the nepotism digs fly all over me, that is my fault and for that I apologize.
So, if I understand your post correctly your saying that you had your say, Dad, Uncle or who ever said no and you decided it wasn't worth the hassle at future Family gatherings to dig in your heels.
I worked for my Dad for a while, I can understand that reasoning ;D
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It took you 1hour and 15min. to find the word nepotism.
Believe it or not but I have other things to do on Sunday night than continue to beat a dead horse.
You are upset by this whole mess and obviously so am I. You problem with George is what it is and my response to that is still what it is.
How much more straight forward of a response do you need?
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Believe it or not but I have other things to do on Sunday night than continue to beat a dead horse.
You are upset by this whole mess and obviously so am I. You problem with George is what it is and my response to that is still what it is.
How much more straight forward of a response do you need?
Do you need a hug? ???
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You problem with George is what it is and my response to that is still what it is.
I understand that all you can do is what you can do, and it sounds as though you've done that. I find no fault in that. The problem, for this program, is that as a result of the seemingly cavalier attitude of the people who ARE in charge of that show, I think it's probably safe to say that "Impossible Shots" has lost a certain percentage of it's viewing audience as a result.
I guess you can call it, "voting with your remote control".
Your mileage may vary.
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I've scanned over this whole thread again, and while I fully understand what started it and that we need to protect ourselves and those we care for from bad examples I find this to be a matter of "preaching to the choir" ... Right up to the point where "Jr." chimed in :o This has gone from a healthy discussion, somewhat fueled by an e-mail exchage, to a silly exchange ...
John - You need to learn to never wrestle with a pig! All that will happen is that you will get muddy, and the pig likes it ;D Read our concerns, take them to your company meetings, and do with it what you want ... Or, you can keep jumping in here and entertain us all.
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I don't know if I am upset about this:
You need to learn to never wrestle with a pig!
because m58 is calling me a pig or :(
All that will happen is that you will get muddy, and the pig likes it Grin
because he knows I like to mud wrestle? ???
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M58 pretty much nails it ;
"Or, you can keep jumping in here and entertain us all." ;D
Especially when you remember that the subject had died over a month ago until it was resurrected by Fastmover
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After m58's post i went back for a review and sorry about overlooking this earlier:
You are upset by this whole mess
now to correct you, I absolutely am not upset with you, some of you retorts yes, along with the treatment of members of this forum, you-betcha, but you in general, negative. You are far from "holier than thou", even though your posts are snide at times. It is the lack of safety standards. Period.
To reflect on the subject of topic, if you in noway have a say in production safety, then why O why did you get involved in the first place?
In doing so you automatically make it "guilt by association" and take responsibility. Agree or disagree it is fact. I will listen to your disputes, then disregard it as usual. ;D joking joking
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From Texicaliber : even though your posts are snide at times.
Most of us are snide at one time or another, it is, after all a DISCUSSION board, not a text book. The only Roberts rules WE go by are no busting the furniture. What you do to each other is either informative or entertaining, sometimes both.
(Oh yeah, considering how many of us are older or heavier, No kicking above the belt ;D )
(and Yes I AM just as bad in person ;D )
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(Oh yeah, considering how many of us are older or heavier, No kicking above the belt Grin )
That rule goes without saying since most of us would never be able to kick above the ankle ;D
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(Oh yeah, considering how many of us are older or heavier, No kicking above the belt Grin )
That rule goes without saying since most of us would never be able to kick above the ankle ;D
Quick side story:
A "acquaintance customer" was in the shop bragging about his new black-belt, and after congratulations were given he states" yep, now I can kick even a big guy like you in the head". Of course Ol' tex in not letting that one just slide by so i "I can kick your tall ass in the head and I do not have a black belt yet. SO whats the big deal?" He proceeded to argue how much practice it took for him to stretch and no way i was as flexible or could jump that high. Which I agree to, but informed him........
" I never said you would be standing when i kicked you. " ;D
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then why O why did you get involved in the first place?
Remember how this thread stared?
Our e-mail exchange, followed by a bunch of personal attacks.
Thank you M58 for the best advice I think I have ever gotten from a web forum. I will now stop wrestling.
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Thank you M58 for the best advice I think I have ever gotten from a web forum. I will now stop wrestling.
Pretend like you have choice or do not enjoy it to boot. I am smiling for you then. But do not worry, because its Christmas, I will let you have your prideful exit.
Our e-mail exchange, followed by a bunch of personal attacks.
No more due to Christmas either. Although you bring it upon yourself and your shows with out much effort. But then again that is an opinion, so..........I take that back. :-X
P.S. i do not speak for the rest of forum. :-X
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(Oh yeah, considering how many of us are older or heavier, No kicking above the belt Grin )
That rule goes without saying since most of us would never be able to kick above the ankle ;D
What if I hit someone upside the head with a spare prosthetic foot, would that count? ;D ;D
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What if I hit someone upside the head with a spare prosthetic foot, would that count? ;D ;D
That would be cheating ... But then again in the words of Clint Smith - "The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win and cheat if necessary." Or the other sage words, If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. And of course, just for you you old pirate you, Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
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That would be cheating ... But then again in the words of Clint Smith - "The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win and cheat if necessary." Or the other sage words, If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. And of course, just for you you old pirate you, Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Amen.
I ain't 'old', but since I can't outrun 'em, I gotta out gun 'em.
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What if I hit someone upside the head with a spare prosthetic foot, would that count? ;D ;D
Checking "Man Law" Rule Book.............one minute........lets see here..........shin kicking if you are over lil' people status is a negative.........an actual kick in the ass on a new shooter negative........kicking posters of other forums and shows for fun on the week of Christmas, NEGATIVE! Doh! stupid rule there...mumble and grumble......Back on point, now where was I..........dog kicking negative.........AH! Here we go PegLeg, lets see here...: kicking hard enough to actually create a popsicle like status with prosthetic is OK, but subclauses A-1 states: you can not self remove implanted prosthetic and strike to the head of adversary with said soiled instrument. ;D
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Pegleg, You can probably get around that by carrying a spare. ;D
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But do not worry, because its Christmas, I will let you have your prideful exit.
See you Wednesday night
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When I saw the first page of this thread I was afraid it would not go well.
The good thing is we can disagree here, agree here, and go our own ways.
We are shooters and patriots. We may be upset at each other from time to time, but we must consider those things which are valid and grounded in truth and continue our own way in some things which we cannot change knowing we have had our say and that our words, thoughts and intentions will likely not be forgotten or carelessly discarded.
As the storm clouds of fascism and socialism tower over our national capital and as the winds of enslavement gather to blow across this nation we should consider if we should mind our strivings towards those of like thinking to some amount of restraint of patience, education and deference that will improve us without forming a division between us. When our conversations are past, we should stand together and allow our focus to be on those who willingly work to deceive us and who do contrive to do us harm.
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When I saw the first page of this thread I was afraid it would not go well.
The good thing is we can disagree here, agree here, and go our own ways.
We are shooters and patriots. We may be upset at each other from time to time, but we must consider those things which are valid and grounded in truth and continue our own way in some things which we cannot change knowing we have had our say and that our words, thoughts and intentions will likely not be forgotten or carelessly discarded.
As the storm clouds of fascism and socialism tower over our national capital and as the winds of enslavement gather to blow across this nation we should consider if we should mind our strivings towards those of like thinking to some amount of restraint of patience, education and deference that will improve us without forming a division between us. When our conversations are past, we should stand together and allow our focus to be on those who willingly work to deceive us and who do contrive to do us harm.
Not enough zeros to put after the +1 on this one!
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Not enough zeros to put after the +1 on this one!
ABSOLUTELY!!!
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It's also refreshing to see that our beloved DRTV management crew stayed out of the fray!
"Discretion is the better part of valour", as they say...
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It's also refreshing to see that our beloved DRTV management crew stayed out of the fray!
"Discretion is the better part of valour", as they say...
they didn't want to get any of it on them. ;)
hard to get that out in the wash
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When I saw the first page of this thread I was afraid it would not go well.
The good thing is we can disagree here, agree here, and go our own ways.
We are shooters and patriots. We may be upset at each other from time to time, but we must consider those things which are valid and grounded in truth and continue our own way in some things which we cannot change knowing we have had our say and that our words, thoughts and intentions will likely not be forgotten or carelessly discarded.
As the storm clouds of fascism and socialism tower over our national capital and as the winds of enslavement gather to blow across this nation we should consider if we should mind our strivings towards those of like thinking to some amount of restraint of patience, education and deference that will improve us without forming a division between us. When our conversations are past, we should stand together and allow our focus to be on those who willingly work to deceive us and who do contrive to do us harm.
No biggy, this is no different than the debate over open carry. One side says "Your a fool for letting the socialists dictate your behavior", the other side says "You're a fool to scare the anti's and put a target on your back".
We say it's wrong not to practice normal safety on a TV show, Fastmover argues it's wrong to make a big deal about it.
There is no argument that BOTH groups should carry, or be at the range shooting.
Get just as heated in your debate as you want, that's the difference between Beliefs, and opinions.
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Pegleg, You can probably get around that by carrying a spare. ;D
I do have spares. ;D ;D ;D