The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: philw on November 05, 2009, 03:04:09 PM
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http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26312336-401,00.html
GUNMEN have killed seven people and wounded 12 others in a shooting at Fort Hood military base in Texas, the US media is reporting.
There are reports one gunman is in custody and another is still on the loose.
MSNBC says the two suspects were in military uniform.
Another media report says there was a third shooter involved.
The attack happened at the Soldier Readiness Centre at Fort Hood, according to the FOX 4 television station.
The base is currently in lockdown mode, according to Fort Hood's website.
Fort Hood is halfway between Austin and Waco, about 97km from each city.
With Reuters
RIP to the Victims and my thoughts to there families
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Damn. I spent a lot time hunting there. I will pray for the victims and their families. The article from MSNBC is below.
FQ13
At least seven people are dead and 20 wounded in a mass shooting Thursday at Fort Hood, Texas, and at least one suspect is believed to be holed up in a building and shooting at SWAT team members, NBC News and affiliate KCEN reported.
It was unknown whether the victims were all soldiers or civilians at Fort Hood, one of the largest military complexes in the world.
One gunman was reportedly in custody and another was on the loose, NBC News said. A third shooter may be involved, according to NBC News affiliate KCEN in Waco, which said the person was holed up in building 42006 on the base and had opened fire on SWAT team members. KCEN quoted a source as saying the shooter had a high-powered rifle.
KCEN reported that a policeman was among those shot.
Greg Schannep, an aide to U.S. Rep. John Carter, told the Austin American-Statesman that he was on the Army post to attend a graduation service. He said that as he neared the entrance of a building where the service was being held, a soldier with blood on his uniform ran past him and said a man was shooting.
Schannep told the newspaper that the shootings appeared to have occurred in a complex near a theater where the service was scheduled. He was with the injured soldier, who he said appeared to have been struck in the shoulder but did not have life-threatening injuries.
The shooting happened "near the soldier readiness processing center, where soldiers cycle through as they prepare to deploy," according to Sgt. Major Jamie Posten from the Fort Hood public affairs office.
He said this is where the soldiers go, up to 60 days before deployment, to begin the process of vaccinations and other preparation. That complex is on the West side of post, off Battalion Avenue.
"It's still developing. We're trying to figure out what took place on the ground," he said.
A nurse at Metroplex Hospital on Fort Hood confirms that those injured in the shooting were being taken there. She told NBC they were all military personnel. The base was reportedly on lockdown. The Killeen Independent School District said all Fort Hood schools are on lockdown.
Temple ISD is on a "soft" lockdown. Parents will be able to pick their children up at the normal times, though they may experience delays.
FBI agents were reportedly on the way to the post.
Fort Hood is adjacent to Killeen, and 60 miles northeast of Austin. The sprawling complex is home to at least 4,929 active duty officers and 45,414 enlisted. Civilian employees total nearly 9,000.
Army spokesman Lt. Col. Lee M. Packnett said he was unaware if security measures were put in place at other military bases.
“At this point I do not know,” Packnett said.
President Barack Obama was briefed on the shootings, according to spokesman Robert Gibbs.
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12 Dead 31 wounded. Shooter (soldier) dead and two other soldiers in custody.
DAMN!
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12 Dead 31 wounded. Shooter (soldier) dead and two other soldiers in custody.
DAMN!
Yeah, double damn.
My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the deceased and injured.
I'll also say a prayer for the crap-storm this will stir up concerning the 2A.
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They did it with handguns, here it comes, soldiers register your weapons. This will not go well for gun owners, and if they try it in Texas... whoa!
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Shooter identified.
The suspected gunman was identified by ABC News as Major Malik Nadal Hasan.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/soldiers-killed-fort-hood-shooting/story?id=9007938
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they have updated the story here as well
very sad day.
looks like there is a LOT more that is happerning than what they are reporting
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26312336-401,00.html
12 dead in shooting at Fort Hood
Gunmen was US-born Muslim, "hated wars"
In pictures: Tragedy in Fort Hood, Texas
A GUNMAN who was wounded after killing 12 people at a US Army base may have signalled his intentions online as long as six months ago.
Army Major Malik Nadal Hasan is in a stable condition in hospital after arming himself with two handguns and going on a rampage at Fort Hood military base in Texas.
The suspected gunman is in a hospital in stable condition, contrary to previous reports he had been killed, an Army general said.
"Our investigation is ongoing but preliminary reports indicate that there was a single shooter," Lieutenant-General Robert Cone told a news conference.
"The shooter is not dead but in custody in stable condition."
He previously said the suspect was killed by police officers during the attack at the biggest military facility in the world.
Lt Cone said the suspect, whom he identified as Hasan, had been shot multiple times.
He was also a lifelong Muslim, born and bred in the US state of Virginia.
He has no children, no partner - and a loathing for the wars in Iraq and Afghanstan, according to his colleagues at the base.
Hasan would talk openly about his anger about the US troop presence in the Middle East, colleague Terry Lee said.
"He's made several comments about how we shouldn't be there."
He had heard Hasan say: "Maybe the Muslims should stand up and fight against the aggressors."
Federal law enforcement officials say the suspected shooter had come to their attention at least six months ago because of Internet postings that discussed suicide bombings and other threats.
US Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas told FOX News: "I do know that he has been known to have told people that he was upset about going (to Iraq)."
Hasan's cousin Nader confirmed her comments.
Nader said his cousin had joined the military from high school and had served as a psychiatrist at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center.
"He was a psychiatrist at Walter Reed dealing with the people coming back and ... trying to help them with their trauma," he said.
He said his cousin had been transferred to Fort Hood in April months ago and was very reluctant to be deployed to Iraq.
"We've known over the last five years that was probably his worst nightmare," he said.
Army investigators had identified two other suspects, but after being held and questioned, the two soldiers were released.
Another person is now in custody, a military spokesman said.
Military public affairs spokesman Christopher Haug told CNN the two initial suspects "had been cleared".
"Another person is in custody," he added, without giving further details except to confirm that the new suspect was a soldier.
The army believes there was only one shooter involved in the incident.
The Fort Hood base remains in lockdown and the FBI is running background checks on the suspected gunman.
The bloodbath unfolded at the Soldier Readiness Centre, where troops undergo final medical checks prior to their deployment, Lieutenant Cone said.
Army personnel told a Fox news affiliate they were not sure if the victims were civilians or military personnel.
Graduation
US media reports said the shooting happened about 30 minutes before a scheduled graduation hearing.
Local congressman John Carter told MSNBC television: "I had a man on the scene, who is my regional director and former chaplin at Fort Hood, waiting to go to a graduation ceremony when a soldier came running up to him saying, 'Sir, don't go over there. They are - somebody is shooting over there','' Mr Carter said.
"When the soldier ran by him, he saw the soldier didn't know it, but he was wounded.
"So, he went into the building and they stopped him, because he had been shot.
"He heard small arms and some rifle fire while he was there and that he thought they had one person that they had caught but there may be more, he didn't know.
"He understood there was more than one, that was all he said."
Worst killing
The incident at Fort Hood, the largest military installation in the world, was one of the worst killings reported on a US military base.
In May a US soldier at a base in Baghdad shot dead five fellow soldiers.
It raised new questions about the toll that six years of continuous fighting in Iraq and nearly eight years fighting in Afghanistan have taken on the US military and on individual soldiers, many of whom have been on several combat tours.
Fort Hood had been working to rehabilitate many soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.
A message on Fort Hood's website - the headquarters of the Army 3rd Corps, the 4th Infantry Division and the 1st Cavalry Division - said it was closed, but gave no further details. All those units have seen extensive duty in Iraq.
"Effective immediately. Fort Hood is closed. Organisations/units are instructed to execute a 100 per cent accountability of all personnel. This is not a drill. It is an emergency situation," the website said.
Schools in the area were also on lockdown, MSNBC said.
President Barack Obama said the shooting was "a horrific outburst of violence".
"My immediate prayers are with the families of the fallen."
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how the hell did this happen on a military base?
active shooter running around, military or not, shouldn't be able to top 7 guys and injure 30! the MP's are gonna get hell for this.
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how the hell did this happen on a military base?
active shooter running around, military or not, shouldn't be able to top 7 guys and injure 30! the MP's are gonna get hell for this.
Why, they're no different than any other cops, they can't be everywhere.
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just a question
is this considered a "Gun Free Zone" or are they able to have CCW on base ?
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is this considered a "Gun Free Zone" or are they able to have CCW on base ?
Most military bases are the epitome of gun control.....all arms are locked away and issued only when being used for training or deployment. Only MP's allowed to carry...and then in varying states of readiness (sometimes w/o mag loaded in firearm).
Shooter probably brought his own guns on base instead of signing out a weapon...which would explain why he used pistols instead of a M-4 or a SAW....
Early reports suggested that he had two or more accomplices. I'll be interested in knowing if this was a "lone gunman" or a concerted attack.....
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just a question
is this considered a "Gun Free Zone" or are they able to have CCW on base ?
In essence, yes it is a gun free zone. Unless you're on the range, live ammo and carrying a weapon is a no-no. MPs and base security are the sole exceptions.
PS: Phil, please update the title of your post to refelct the current known toll. Thanks.
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In essence, yes it is a gun free zone. Unless you're on the range, live ammo and carrying a weapon is a no-no. MPs and base security are the sole exceptions.
PS: Phil, please update the title of your post to refelct the current known toll. Thanks.
that really surprises me I would of expected that that not to be the case with the time that it would take to get everything out of the armoury if it hits the fan I would of thought they would of been allowed to keep there sidearms or be allowed to have there own at a minimum
guess The "religion of peace" strikes again,
once again may his victims rest in peace.
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Gun Free Zone!
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On many bases many of those on "guard duty" didn't even have ammunition. (this is pre-9/11....things may have changed) Heck when I had to pull "the duty" all I was given was the web belt and holster.....no gun even. In theory the belt represented my temporary authority and everyone was to obey my commands.....ha.
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The last base I was stationed, we squids were the ONLY defense force within 300 miles. We were alone on the N. CA coast in the middle of Humbolt County. We had no security at all and most us of carried our own personal sidearms on and off the base because of mountain lions, bear and other things that had the capacity to do harm.
When we were actually performing our Guard dutys, we were given a 1911 and two empty mags along with a Remy 870 riot gun with no shells. The reason for this dates back to 1957 when they were building the facility. One of the Plankholders confronted an intruder, called them to "Halt", when no response was recieved, he fired and killed the intruder.
The intruder was later identified as one of the farmers cows that the Government had bought the land from, he was not happy.
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Fort Hood soldier describes horrific scene to family in Utah
November 5th, 2009 @ 10:00pm
By John Daley
NORTHERN UTAH -- The news of the mass shooting at Fort Hood Thursday hit close to home for some Utahns. One man says his daughter heard the shooter exclaim "Allah Akbar" as he opened fire.
We want to stress that no government or military officials are reporting that and there is no way for us to independently confirm that it is true.
The family from northern Utah agreed to talk to us, on the condition we not identify them and blur out some photos they've supplied, because they're worried their daughter could get in trouble with her superiors for making public what she told her family she saw.
The soldier's father says his daughter was at Fort Hood Thursday when the shooting happened, and she called him, frantic and upset, soon after.
"She said, ‘Dad, I'm OK. Don't worry, I'm OK.' And initially I said, ‘What are you talking about?' She said, ‘Haven't you heard?' And I said, ‘No.' And she said, ‘We've been attacked by terrorists,'" the father explained.
He told KSL News soldiers were sitting in a staging area for medical and dental checks when the group was startled by gunfire.
"A person behind counter stood up, and he said, ‘Allah Akbar!' And just opened up on everybody," the father told us.
Again, that's what the man tells us his daughter said, but no one else is saying that and we cannot confirm whether it's true. He, himself a military veteran, says at first his daughter thought it was some sort of drill but quickly discovered it wasn't.
"It was within a second or two she realized it was real because the person right next to her was shot and killed instantly," he said.
The man says his daughter immediately fell to the ground and played dead. He says he contacted KSL because he thought people should know what happened there.
It was a difficult day too for Bev Haws, in Sandy. Her son Timothy, a staff sergeant at Fort Hood, has been to Iraq twice and is getting deployed again soon. She says she too was shaken when she heard the news and talked to her son.
"Terrified. It's like having him in Iraq when you have something like this happen. You hear something happens, and you know where he's at, and it scares you," Haws said.
Obviously, there are many more questions than answers. No doubt we can expect to learn a lot more in the coming days about the man who the military says fired those fatal shots.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8572568
Emphasis (BOLD) is mine
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On many bases many of those on "guard duty" didn't even have ammunition. (this is pre-9/11....things may have changed) Heck when I had to pull "the duty" all I was given was the web belt and holster.....no gun even. In theory the belt represented my temporary authority and everyone was to obey my commands.....ha.
thats intresting, when I was a coastie, when we were issued a weapon, we had to load up and put one in the chamber. not doing so got you in deep doo doo
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News reports the shooter used a FN Five-seveN. That explains the amount of shooting involved, several twenty round mags will do the trick...
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FN 5.7 very effective round, designed in the late 90's to protect VIP's dignitaries, diplomats, etc,... by security personnel that needed to penetrate light armor/or vehicles.
Coined a "cop killer" in 2005. Velocities over 2000fps. Very light recoil.
Shooter bought his at "Guns Galore" legally in TX. some years ago.
Your right Timothy, pocket full of 20rd mags. (NBC just called them clips), would lay down a lot of rounds very quickly.
Officer that got shots into him first, was a woman LEO hired by the base, she was shot and wounded. But still managed to hit him 4 times.
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Jack Jacobs guess that there may have been some friendly fire involved. I think that's rather irresponsible for him to speculate about that at this point but he may be right.
13 Dead and 43 wounded is a lot of hits for one guy with two handguns.
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High velocity rounds in a confined area it's possible that multiple people were being hit with some of the rounds.
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Shooting reveals tensions over Muslims in the military
By Nancy A. Youssef and Leila Fadel, McClatchy Newspapers Nancy A. Youssef And Leila Fadel, Mcclatchy Newspapers – 2 hrs 1 min ago
WASHINGTON — The killings of 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas , by an Army psychiatrist who also was a Muslim set off a rancorous debate Friday that once again spotlighted the fear among Muslims in America that they'll be collectively found guilty for the actions of one man.
Vitriolic exchanges filled Internet sites devoted to military affairs, with some posters arguing that Muslims should be barred from the armed services.
News reporters deluged the Silver Spring, Md. , mosque where the Fort Hood shooting suspect once worshipped, demanding to know what the Quran, Islam's holy book, has to say about such events. One even asked if the suspect, Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan , who was born in Virginia and lived his whole life in the U.S., spoke with an "accent."
Anita Husseini , who also worships at the Muslim Community Center , said she didn't know Hasan, but she knew that what he's accused of doing would affect her life and those of others.
"My heart cried last night," said Husseini, a hairdresser. "Every time the Muslims try to get up, something goes boom and pushes us back. What a crazy person decides does not define me or Islam."
"They're trying so hard to pin this on Islam," said Arshad Qureshi , the mosque's chairman. "They're working so hard to make it about religion."
U.S. military officials repeated Friday that the motive behind Thursday's shooting remains unclear. Hasan remains unconscious after a civilian policewoman shot him four times, and he hasn't spoken to investigators.
Investigators seized his computer after news reports said that someone named Nidal Hasan had posted messages comparing suicide bombing missions to Japanese kamikaze pilots.
Lt. Gen. Robert W. Cone , the base commander at Fort Hood , said that witnesses to Thursday's mayhem reported that Hasan had shouted "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great," in Arabic, as he opened fire with two handguns on clusters of soldiers who were waiting for medical examinations and other processes in the sprawling base's Soldier Readiness Processing Center. The phrase is a traditional Muslim invocation.
Cone and others, however, turned away questions about Hasan's religion, and Cone said there's no evidence that Hasan was part of a wider plot.
Maj. Gen. Kevin Bergner , a Pentagon spokesman, said there was no doubt within the military hierarchy of the loyalty of Muslim service members. He said the military will take steps to make sure "everyone is treated with dignity and respect."
Posters to Facebook and participants in chat rooms and popular military sites were less circumspect, revealing a bitterness that Muslims say they've often felt since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 .
Someone started a Facebook page called "Against muslims in military!...or in presidency" — a reference to the false claims that President Barack Obama is a Muslim.
One poster said he agreed with banning Muslims from the military.
Another commenter wrote: "Whoever you are you're an idiot. It's a shame you weren't at Ft. Hood."
Muslims make up less than 0.3 percent of America's active duty military forces. Of the roughly 548,000 soldiers in the U.S. Army , there are 2,500 Muslims, 1,500 of them on active duty. By comparison, 105,000 claim Roman Catholicism as their religion, and 99,000 say they're Baptists. More than 1,800 soldiers say they're Jewish, surpassed by the nearly 2,500 who identified themselves as atheists. More than 101,000 list no religious affiliation.
That was the case with Hasan, according to Pentagon officials, even though interviews at the Silver Spring mosque make it clear that he was an observant Muslim who prayed daily — and often in uniform.
Mona Ayad , the administrative assistant at the center, said that Hasan would come to prayer quite often, volunteer at the mosque, contribute money for the poor as Islam requires and answer phones.
He wasn't a loner, but he wasn't particularly social either. He stopped coming over the summer, apparently when he was transferred to Fort Hood .
Imam Mohamed Abdullahi Sheikh Mohamed , the mosque's chief cleric, said he knew Hasan from his frequent appearances at the mosque and knew he was a military doctor. However, he said Hasan never brought up his work with the U.S. military.
"He was not violent, he seemed calm . . . I was shocked," Mohamed said. "It's absolutely unacceptable what he did . . . He was a doctor. He was supposed to help people."
Hasan's religious affiliation also was known to his military colleagues, and may have caused tensions.
Hasan's family said that he was harassed for his faith and the Washington Post quoted his aunt Friday as saying Hasan had sought legal help in an effort to get out of the Army . On Friday, there were other reports that another soldier at Fort Hood keyed his car, causing about $1,000 in damage, and that someone removed a bumper sticker that read "Allah is Love."
Khallid Shabbaz, one the Army's six Muslim chaplains, said in a television interview Thursday that he talked to Hasan recently about becoming a Muslim chaplain, but didn't explain why he didn't choose him.
One Army chaplain talked to McClatchy on the condition of anonymity out of fear that an interview would turn Thursday's shooting into a religious issue.
The chaplain said that some Muslims are conflicted about honoring their duty while fighting other Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan . In those cases, Muslim soldiers usually prefer talking to a Muslim chaplain, he said. They also more often turn to Muslim chaplains when they feel harassed in the military.
The chaplain said that many of the soldiers he talked to feel betrayed mainly because Hasan is a fellow soldier.
"This is not a Muslim issue. It is a soldier issue. It is a punch in the gut," he said.
The chaplain said Muslim soldiers most commonly ask for help finding a place to worship where they serve. Some mosques, he said, don't want to serve soldiers.
Others ask about the Christian faith to better understand their comrades; Christian soldiers often ask about Islam as well, either to understand the communities they're fighting in or the soldiers with whom they're serving.
At the Muslim Community Center where Hasan prayed for five years, congregants, the imam and board members were deluged Friday with different versions of the same question.
"Does Islam condone this?"
Qureshi, the mosque's chairman, spent Friday morning and most of the afternoon telling reporters that Islam is a religion of peace. Multiple times, he was asked to explain why Hasan would do something like this.
By 2 p.m. , he was tired. He'd seen Hasan come to the mosque and pray, but he had no idea why the man would open fire at an army base.
"We've been here 35 years quietly. We're just as American as everybody else," Qureshi said.
"It's a tragedy and we're so sad about it," said Ayad, the administrative assistant. "But it doesn't have anything to do with us or Islam . . . I wish we could separate ourselves from this tragedy."
In his Friday sermon, Mohamed paid his condolences to the families of the people who'd been killed. He quoted a verse from the Quran that says taking one innocent life is like killing humankind.
"I ask the media people not to relate all the time everything to Islam," he said over loudspeakers.
The phone calls kept coming. "It's the L.A. Times," Ayad would state to anyone in the room. "It's CNN ."
"This is just a nightmare," she said as she hung up the phone. "He's the person that you'd least expect, from what I've seen of him."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3351217
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The chaplain said Muslim soldiers most commonly ask for help finding a place to worship where they serve. Some mosques, he said, don't want to serve soldiers.
A telling quote there!
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Another sad day. Its a shame, but in some ways Islam is like a handgun... it is something a person takes to themselves and, on it's own, does not kill. When you combine it with radical ideas or craziness, carelessness, or all of the above, the COMBINATION is deadly. That's the situation, rendered down to the basics.
Also, military bases are in essence, "Gun free zones". How's that workin' for us?
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I shouldn't be surprised at this paragraph, I've long been aware of the pathetic state of journalism:
"Muslims make up less than 0.3 percent of America's active duty military forces. Of the roughly 548,000 soldiers in the U.S. Army , there are 2,500 Muslims, 1,500 of them on active duty. By comparison, 105,000 claim Roman Catholicism as their religion, and 99,000 say they're Baptists. More than 1,800 soldiers say they're Jewish, surpassed by the nearly 2,500 who identified themselves as atheists. More than 101,000 list no religious affiliation."
Why pick and choose these stats? they leave, by my reckoning, 220,000 folks unaccounted for, or are we to assume there are no Lutherans, Episcopaleans, Church of Christ'ers in the military?
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Trying to show that the 'religion of peace' is just like every one else. Let's all sing Kum-by-ya!
>:(
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My take (and that's all it is): He was miserable, couldn't face up to his cowardice and decided that maybe the 70 virgins could be his if only he had the nerve to serve Allah. He tried, but hadn't quite enuf conviction to finish, and now he has a whole new load of misery to carry. Even Allah's disappointed. What a pathetic, quivering fool.
If he wanted out of the Army, all he had to do was buy a GI Joe inflatable sex toy, arrange to get caught with it in bed, and he'd be out on a Section 8. But that would have meant giving up his uniform and the bennies and six-figure salary that came with it - and, of course, a civilian medical practice.
Add hypocrisy to his list of crimes.
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He was an officer. All he had to do to get out was to resign his commision and pay for the education they gave him.
POS coward, regardless of his beliefs!
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MOTIVE
A mostly overlooked thing when comparing islam to Christianity. I'm tired of the sayings that equivilate "Christians" who commit murders to muslim bombers and shooters seeking a way to their god....well...drop the PC crap...how many commit murders for their religion? My observation is that people in a Christian community who associate themselves with Christianity (and are not necessarily Christian in any real measure) who commit murder do it for their own selfish reasons...greed, anger, power, to coverup other things, etc.
Those dang Baptist Bombers and Methodist Snipers scare the heck out of me...oh, wait...it's the muslims that do that are doing that sort of thing in the name of their religion.
MOTIVE -- Consider the motive for the, and according to the, religion. It is infantile to compare murderous acts of religious fanaticism of muslims to old Bobby down the street who killed some guy in the bar because he was drunk and got mad or someone's son caught in a drug deal. Get real.
Religion of peace....please tell me you haven't fallen for that.
By the way...the news is reporting that the lady officer who stopped the muslim from killing people had active shooter training. I bet when the facts start trickling out we'll all see how important training was in this instance.
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Christians, like the guy that killed the abortion Dr. commit these acts because of what THEY THINK, the Bible means.
Muslims who commit mass shootings, and suicide bombings etc, are doing so because the Koran explicitly states things like "all infidels must be killed", and "the only excuse for a Muslim to befriend a Christian or Jew, is to deceive them".
Calling Islam "the religion of Peace" is like calling National Socialism the Politics of Peace.
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I shouldn't be surprised at this paragraph, I've long been aware of the pathetic state of journalism:
"Muslims make up less than 0.3 percent of America's active duty military forces. Of the roughly 548,000 soldiers in the U.S. Army , there are 2,500 Muslims, 1,500 of them on active duty. By comparison, 105,000 claim Roman Catholicism as their religion, and 99,000 say they're Baptists. More than 1,800 soldiers say they're Jewish, surpassed by the nearly 2,500 who identified themselves as atheists. More than 101,000 list no religious affiliation."
Why pick and choose these stats? they leave, by my reckoning, 220,000 folks unaccounted for, or are we to assume there are no Lutherans, Episcopaleans, Church of Christ'ers in the military?
...or, for that matter, Hindus, Buddhists, or other religions.... ???
Methinks that our PC MSM (as well as the Fed's PR people) will be doing their darndest to keep the Islamic Extremist aspect out of public consideration.....
OTOH, I think this incident has caused me to reconsider the effectiveness of the 5.7 round out of a pistol......
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...or, for that matter, Hindus, Buddhists, or other religions.... ???
Methinks that our PC MSM (as well as the Fed's PR people) will be doing their darndest to keep the Islamic Extremist aspect out of public consideration.....
OTOH, I think this incident has caused me to reconsider the effectiveness of the 5.7 round out of a pistol......
Agreed. Yes, this was horrific but I believe it would have been much worse if he had had a larger caliber weapon. A pointy .22 at hyper velocity is not a round I would want to carry for either self defense or hunting any thing bigger than a prairie dog.
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Quote from Seeker_Two: "OTOH, I think this incident has caused me to reconsider the effectiveness of the 5.7 round out of a pistol......"
Yup, really effective on unarmed, unsuspecting folks in a crowded room where they figured they'd be safe at least from Arabic-grunting, hypocritical cowards.
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Yup, really effective on unarmed, unsuspecting folks in a crowded room where they figured they'd be safe at least from Arabic-grunting, hypocritical cowards.
Judging from the fact that the shooter in hospitalized on a ventilator, it seems that a few of those unsuspecting folks were armed....esp. the civilian LEO that shot him down....
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This guy picked Ft Hood because he knew that no one other than a few MP's and civilian cops would be able to stop him. If he'd tried this at the shopping mall in Austin, about every other Texan walking around would have dropped him before he dropped his first mag.
This shitbag knew exactly what he was doing and either Texas law or Federal law makes sure he makes his appointment to meet his maker! If they don't chose to give him the needle, they're doing it for political reasons, PERIOD!...
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This guy picked Ft Hood because he knew that no one other than a few MP's and civilian cops would be able to stop him. If he'd tried this at the shopping mall in Austin, about every other Texan walking around would have dropped him before he dropped his first mag............!...
I don't know about Austin....it is pretty damned liberal. Now, move to almost any other area of Texas and I heartily agree.
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I don't know about Austin....it is pretty damned liberal. Now, move to almost any other area of Texas and I heartily agree.
There are a few right-minded individuals left in Austin (not to mention out-of-towners who visit the malls) that could have made something like this more difficult for Mr. Hassan......
...but I've wondered why the terrorist cells haven't hit more soft targets in the US since 09/11....like malls, high-school football games, parades, etc.........
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There have been attempts such as the Ft. Dix plot a couple years ago.
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Ralph Peters called it right on when he appeared on O'Reilly the other night. This was a act of radical muslim terrorism, pure and simple. What would have been different if an Al Qaeda "sleeper cell" came ramming through the front gate at Ft. Hood with guns blazing killing United States military personnel and civilians? Absolutely nothing. Yet Hussein won't call it that, or MSDNC, or any of the other Obama networks. Instead he and his socialist administration will spin it, and sugar coat it to the max. Our military bases better start reevaluating their "gun free" position on these bases. Had all of the military personnel at that base had sidearms, the body count would have been far less. We as a nation have learned nothing from Virgina Tech. We better start, or this will continue to get worse. Bill T.
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Guns don't kill people, Gun free zones kill people
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Guns don't kill people, Gun free zones kill people
I hereby nominate this statement as QUOTE OF THE MONTH!! Do I hear a second???
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I'll second that!!
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Add a third!
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How many more examples of this nonsense do we need? First Virginia Tech, now this. How quickly we forget the gal in the church that dropped that psychopath a year or so ago. If it wasn't for her he could have easily ran up a body count in the dozens or more. No guns at a military base makes about as much sense as no women or booze at a strip joint! Bill T.
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just a question
is this considered a "Gun Free Zone" or are they able to have CCW on base ?
My base is a gun free zone. They have a sign posted as you drive up to the gate that states CCW is not allowed. The security is armed and as a percentage of security to people on base compared to off base you are probably safer, but your still not really safe. I don't think they stand any more of chance at stopping this kind of attack on a military installation than you do at any other location. That kind of security is just to hard to maintain. I mean to achieve that kind of security you would have to make it like an airport and that's not very feasible. I sure wish they would change their CCW policy, but I realize it's a pipe dream with our current government. :( Hell just a few months ago another military installation near me had a shooting by a retired soldier who shot and killed his former girlfriend then turned the gun on himself. I guess the bottom line is that relying on someone else for SECURITY is just an illusion. :( :(
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I guess the bottom line is that relying on someone else for SECURITY is just an illusion. :( :(
And those words are true whether you're on a military base or walking down Main Street, USA. It's a damn shame those in positions of power don't have enough common sense to recognize common sense.
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People will continue to die in more and more of these incidents as long as guns don't exist wherever bad people are. Which is EVERYWHERE. Times are no different now than they were in the 1800's. Except for the fact the bad guys are smart enough to know the liberals have made it easier to score. In Dodge City in the 1800's you respected a man when you approached him. If you did not, you just might get your Brains Blown Out!! Bill T.
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People will continue to die in more and more of these incidents as long as guns don't exist wherever bad people are. Which is EVERYWHERE. Times are no different now than they were in the 1800's. Except for the fact the bad guys are smart enough to know the liberals have made it easier to score. In Dodge City in the 1800's you respected a man when you approached him. If you did not, you just might get your Brains Blown Out!! Bill T.
try again, just about every old west town had a "no guns" laws.
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try again, just about every old west town had a "no guns" laws.
That nobody obeyed. Read a history book, dude.
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That nobody obeyed. Read a history book, dude.
That depends on the town. granted most of the it was a slap on the wrist. Does not change the fact that they had the law on the books.
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That depends on the town. granted most of the it was a slap on the wrist. Does not change the fact that they had the law on the books.
Nor does having the law on the books change the fact that people were, for the most part, polite, since they KNEW that nobody obeyed the no gun laws.
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As they should not now since they are not aimed at reducing crime but a controlling citizens.
You do realize that gun registration laws don't even apply to criminals ?
They only apply to LEGALLY owned fire arms, require a crook to register his weapon violates his 5th Amendment protection against self incrimination.
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And those words are true whether you're on a military base or walking down Main Street, USA. It's a damn shame those in positions of power don't have enough common sense to recognize common sense.
Common sense got thrown out the window - it ain't about common sense anyhow, it is about control. They will lie, cheat and streal to make us serfs and maintain and augment their own power over us.
This is the point of rule by law, not the rule of law. They've just replaced the King with an bureaucratic oligarchy.
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try again, just about every old west town had a "no guns" laws.
True.....and most of those laws were directed at the cowboys and other drifters.....nothing was said to the "respected citizen" who chose to go "heeled"....
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That nobody obeyed. Read a history book, dude.
Oh come on! You mean The Gunfight at the OK Corral was in violation of gun control laws? How dare they! ;D Bill T.
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I just heard on the news (the wife watches, not me) that the shooter had "secondary post traumatic stress" ??? from dealing with the soldiers who actually had it. (primary post traumatic stress?)
What a load of $hit.
They'll find any excuse or just make up excuses as long as they are islam friendly. >:(
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Oh come on! You mean The Gunfight at the OK Corral was in violation of gun control laws? How dare they! ;D Bill T.
Actually Bill that is in a general way correct, There were other issues involved, but the last incidents leading up to the shooting revolved around the "No guns" policy.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/Ftrials/earp/wearptestimony.html
This is enough to make you sick, This SOB should not get a trial, He was Caught in the act there is no need to establish his guilt.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_shooting
FTA;
KILLEEN, Texas (AP) — A lawyer for the Army psychiatrist accused in a deadly shooting spree at Fort Hood said Monday he asked investigators not to question his client and expressed doubt that the suspect would be able to get a fair trial, given the widespread attention to the case.
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Where's Jack Ruby when we need him? Bad joke. Actually I want to see the SOB stand trial and get his just desserts. It looks as if he wasn't anything more than a jihadist wannabe, which should be deeply embarrassing to the real jihadists because this sick puppy didn't have the cojones to close the deal. Just another red zone fumbler. Put him in a cell with Hannibal Lecter.
Yum.
That Wyatt Earp affidavit is fascinating. Never knew such a thing existed. What a windbag. The original OTMW!
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Some one posted a link a long time back to all the court transcripts from the hearing, this is all I could find though.
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At the bottom is a link to "Wyatt Earp Trial Homepage." I didn't click it, but it prolly has all the goodies.
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Probably.
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Actually Bill that is in a general way correct, There were other issues involved, but the last incidents leading up to the shooting revolved around the "No guns" policy.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/Ftrials/earp/wearptestimony.html
This is enough to make you sick, This SOB should not get a trial, He was Caught in the act there is no need to establish his guilt.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_shooting
FTA;
KILLEEN, Texas (AP) — A lawyer for the Army psychiatrist accused in a deadly shooting spree at Fort Hood said Monday he asked investigators not to question his client and expressed doubt that the suspect would be able to get a fair trial, given the widespread attention to the case.
This shouldn't be to big a problem. This happened on a military installation the murderer is a military officer so this should be a military court marshall!!!!! I'm sure he will spend a very long time in Ft. Leavenworth!!! Besides a death sentence would be to nice for him, I wouldn't want him to meet his 72 virgins any time soon. At least not till he's incapable of doing anything with them. ;D
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This shouldn't be to big a problem. This happened on a military installation the murderer is a military officer so this should be a military court marshall!!!!! I'm sure he will spend a very long time in Ft. Leavenworth!!! Besides a death sentence would be to nice for him, I wouldn't want him to meet his 72 virgins any time soon. At least not till he's incapable of doing anything with them. ;D
He's probably supposed to be one of somebody else's 72 virgins. ;D
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He's probably supposed to be one of somebody else's 72 virgins. ;D
O he WILL BE! ;) ;D Just as soon as they get done plugging the holes that Gal put in him!
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I think even in prisons (especially in military prisons) they probably have a form of the code of ethics, and this is probably a violation of them.
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He's probably supposed to be one of somebody else's 72 virgins. ;D
Hopefully he'll get treated like a virgin AT LEAST 72 times.
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Hopefully he'll get treated like a virgin AT LEAST 72 times.
+1 for that! 8)
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Hopefully he'll get treated like a virgin AT LEAST 72 times.
(http://thehostages.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/72virgins_thumb4.jpg)
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Well, virgins are supposed to be treated tenderly, so maybe we should change that to "ho?"
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(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5573/nunswithgunsnv5.jpg)
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(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5573/nunswithgunsnv5.jpg)
AMEN ;D :P :o 8)
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I have to say that in all fairness, I do kind of feel sorry for the guy's lawyer. The man took an oath, as an officer of the court, to defend this scumbag to the best of his ability. What the hell is he going to do? Win, lose or draw, you're a hated man. Even just doing your duty, what defense have you got? One of my roomates in grad school had an uncle who was one of the attorneys assigned to defend the uni-bomber. He described his uncle playing a drinking game with himself while reading the "manifesto'. Every time the words bomb or kill came up, he would take a shot. He quit halway through the bottle determining the prosecution had won. ;D This guy needs a court martial, allowing the victims and bereaved a chance to vent. Hopefully the guy will take the stand and say FU, this is why I did it, ala Castro's "History will absolve me" speech. He will then be convicted in minutes and sent to one of two very unpleasent fates. Hopefully though, this will be a wakeup call about what Islamic extremists are about. Not your average muslim, but the radicals, and let CAIR know they need to be careful about who they defend.
FQ13 who isn't holding his breath and still is not a fan of Islam period
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FQ, I would not and will not HATE him if he does his job without a bunch of BS game playing. It's the way our system works.
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I have to say that in all fairness, I do kind of feel sorry for the guy's lawyer. The man took an oath, as an officer of the court, to defend this scumbag to the best of his ability. What the hell is he going to do? Win, lose or draw, you're a hated man. Even just doing your duty, what defense have you got? One of my roomates in grad school had an uncle who was one of the attorneys assigned to defend the uni-bomber. He described his uncle playing a drinking game with himself while reading the "manifesto'. Every time the words bomb or kill came up, he would take a shot. He quit halway through the bottle determining the prosecution had won. ;D This guy needs a court martial, allowing the victims and bereaved a chance to vent. Hopefully the guy will take the stand and say FU, this is why I did it, ala Castro's "History will absolve me" speech. He will then be convicted in minutes and sent to one of two very unpleasent fates. Hopefully though, this will be a wakeup call about what Islamic extremists are about. Not your average muslim, but the radicals, and let CAIR know they need to be careful about who they defend.
FQ13 who isn't holding his breath and still is not a fan of Islam period
You got that one right FQ
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FQ, I would not and will not HATE him if he does his job without a bunch of BS game playing. It's the way our system works.
Haz, all the guy has is a bunch of BS game playing. His client is guilty as hell, and everyone knows it. All you can do is minimize the damage. If you have the facts, argue the facts. If you have the law, argue the law. If you have neither facts nor law, throw a Hail Mary and hope to dazzle them with BS.
FQ13
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Haz, all the guy has is a bunch of BS game playing. His client is guilty as hell, and everyone knows it. All you can do is minimize the damage. If you have the facts, argue the facts. If you have the law, argue the law. If you have neither facts nor law, throw a Hail Mary and hope to dazzle them with BS.
FQ13
He is gonna try 'mental issues' like PTSD or now the new Secondary PTSD and I expect him to. I would not respect him other wise. Just don't do a bunch of delay and 'poor me' type stuff.
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After all didn't Tom Jefferson defend a traitor or some such (TomBogan will have the details ;) )
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Other then he was crazy I can't think of anything else he could argue.
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One would hope he would just cowboy up and admit it. He is obviousley not stupid. He has to realize that he is looking at "martyrdom" and his 72 camels via lethal injection, or perhaps worse, life in Levenworth. Why not go out with a bang? A final screed against the Great Satan? Its the last time anyone will ever listen to him. Whether he faces a court martial or a Tx. jury, he's screwed either way, no one will buy a "poor pitiful me, my dad beat me with a rake (good for him) and I am mentally ill" defence, so why bother? The only card he has to play is if he can name others and get sent to civilian, rather than military prison. I mean hell, the guys at Levenworth may be thieves, insubordinate, drunks and bully's, but someone who shoots up a bunch of soldiers has got to make the child molestors feel popular.
FQ13
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One would hope he would just cowboy up and admit it. He is obviousley not stupid. He has to realize that he is looking at "martyrdom" and his 72 camels via lethal injection, or perhaps worse, life in Levenworth. Why not go out with a bang? A final screed against the Great Satan? Its the last time anyone will ever listen to him. Whether he faces a court martial or a Tx. jury, he's screwed either way, no one will buy a "poor pitiful me, my dad beat me with a rake (good for him) and I am mentally ill" defence, so why bother? The only card he has to play is if he can name others and get sent to civilian, rather than military prison. I mean hell, the guys at Levenworth may be thieves, insubordinate, drunks and bully's, but someone who shoots up a bunch of soldiers has got to make the child molestors feel popular.
FQ13
Just out of curiosity, why would you imagine that a soldier, who is accused of opening fire on other soldiers on a military post might be tried in a civilian court? The only possible reason that comes to mind is the identity of the current Imposter-In-Chief of the military, and the political climate that he and his willful accomplices have engendered.
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He is gonna try 'mental issues' like PTSD or now the new Secondary PTSD and I expect him to. I would not respect him other wise. Just don't do a bunch of delay and 'poor me' type stuff.
He's a Lawyer, I don't respect him any way.
After all didn't Tom Jefferson defend a traitor or some such (TomBogan will have the details ;) )
I do know that the Defense attorney for the British troops accused in the 1770 Boston Massacre was John Adams, he won an acquittal for six of the soldiers and reduced charges of manslaughter for the other 2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre#Trial_of_the_soldiers
Jefferson had his former Vice President Aaron Burr tried for treason, at that time the Vice president was the loser of the presidential election
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
1807 his former vice president, Aaron Burr, was tried for treason on Jefferson's order, but was acquitted. During the trial Chief Justice John Marshall subpoenaed Jefferson, who invoked executive privilege and claimed that as president he did not need to comply. When Marshall held that the Constitution did not provide the president with any exception to the duty to obey a court order, Jefferson backed down.
one interesting note I found in the article,
Jefferson and Madison rallied support by anonymously writing the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, which declared that the federal government had no right to exercise powers not specifically delegated to it by the states. The Resolutions meant that, should the federal government assume such powers, its acts under them could be voided by a state. The Resolutions presented the first statements of the states' rights theory, that later led to the concepts of nullification and interposition.
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SEE! I KNEW Tom would have the details! ;D
Tom, Do you think Adams was wrong for defending them?
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SEE! I KNEW Tom would have the details! ;D
Tom, Do you think Adams was wrong for defending them?
No I don't think Adams was wrong for defending them, From what I have learned, both in school (History of NH class ) and reading since then the troops were genuinely in fear for their safety and the officer approaching yelled "For God's sake don't fire", with the confusion and the crowd jeering at them they probably only heard the one word "fire".
Similar to Haditha, there was much confusion at the time, and politically inspired accusations prior to the trial. Had anyone other than a leading Patriot defended them there would have always been questions as to whether the trial was fair to them or honest in it's result.
FQ and tt, Hasan will get a Court Martial, But he would go to Leavenworth either way, It is a FEDERAL penitentiary, I do not believe it has been a strictly military prison since the 1800's.
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Just out of curiosity, why would you imagine that a soldier, who is accused of opening fire on other soldiers on a military post might be tried in a civilian court? The only possible reason that comes to mind is the identity of the current Imposter-In-Chief of the military, and the political climate that he and his willful accomplices have engendered.
There are a bunch of reasons, all of them practical. The prosecution has three ways to go.
1) State law for murder assault etc.
2) Federal law for the above crimes because it took place on federal property and the victims were soldiers
3) military law as the accused was a soldier in uniform
The prosecution can pursue any (or if they are feeling vindictive) ALL of the above, without violating double jeapordy as they are three different jurisdictions. The decision is tactical. Where will you get the easiest conviction with the maximum sentence?
FQ13
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There are a bunch of reasons, all of them practical. The prosecution has three ways to go.
1) State law for murder assault etc.
2) Federal law for the above crimes because it took place on federal property and the victims were soldiers
3) military law as the accused was a soldier in uniform
The prosecution can pursue any (or if they are feeling vindictive) ALL of the above, without violating double jeapordy as they are three different jurisdictions. The decision is tactical. Where will you get the easiest conviction with the maximum sentence?
FQ13
The answer to your question, I'd think, would be in a Court Martial. That removes the possibility of bleeding heart assholes from the general civilian population serving on this guy's jury.
Then send him to Leavenworth and let him turn big rocks into little rocks for the next couple of hundred years.
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The answer to your question, I'd think, would be in a Court Martial. That removes the possibility of bleeding heart assholes from the general civilian population serving on this guy's jury.
Have you BEEN to Killeen Texas? ;D
FQ13
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Killeen Texas is the town where Suzanne Huff's parents and 27 others were murdered in the Luby's Cafeteria.
He would get no sympathy off base.
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Killeen Texas is the town where Suzanne Huff's parents and 27 others were murdered in the Luby's Cafeteria.
He would get no sympathy off base.
He'd never be tried in Killeen in a civilian court for exactly that reason. Change Of Venue, dudes.
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Killeen Texas is the town where Suzanne Huff's parents and 27 others were murdered in the Luby's Cafeteria.
He would get no sympathy off base.
Yup! I think your odds of getting a juror in Killeen who did not have some connection to either the Luby's killings or Fort Hood are right up there with the odds of me and Tom converting to Islam and getting married, with Rastus presiding at the ceremony. Personally, I'd rather face a court martial where the jury would at least pretend to deliberate. ;D
FQ13
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If he had been off base the cop who shot him would not have stopped at 3 or 4, so the fair trial thing would be moot.
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When he gets court martialed he can request a trial by judge alone. No jury to decide his fate. That may be his best option since the jury would be unfriendly.
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When he gets court martialed he can request a trial by judge alone. No jury to decide his fate. That may be his best option since the jury would be unfriendly.
Judge isn't exactly going to be having him over for drinks either.
Either way, the only REAL question will be life or death.
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I vote for a firing squad.
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No Way, They have enough trouble getting congress to buy them ammo for training. They won't waste any on this SOB.
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Time to get the rope out Tom.
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FQ and tt, Hasan will get a Court Martial, But he would go to Leavenworth either way, It is a FEDERAL penitentiary, I do not believe it has been a strictly military prison since the 1800's.
I'm not sure on that one way or the other but I do believe it is still the primary max security prison for soldiers. My Father was stationed their for 3 years in the early 80's. What I remember the most (being a child at the time) was all the grocery baggers at the commissary were inmates on good behavior work release.
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Either way, the only REAL question will be life or death.
Not the way I see it...
I say we use him for training... moving target. I'm sure there would be a list of members of the armed forces well into the 6 digets volunteering for that.
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I'm not sure on that one way or the other but I do believe it is still the primary max security prison for soldiers. My Father was stationed their for 3 years in the early 80's. What I remember the most (being a child at the time) was all the grocery baggers at the commissary were inmates on good behavior work release.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Disciplinary_Barracks
The United States Disciplinary Barracks (or USDB, popularly known as Leavenworth, the DB, or the Castle) is a military prison located on Fort Leavenworth, a United States Army post in Kansas.
It is one of two major federal prisons built on Fort Leavenworth property. The civilian United States Penitentiary, Leavenworth is four miles south. A third prison the Midwest Joint Regional Confinement Center is scheduled to open nearby on the fort in 2010.[1]
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I'm not sure on that one way or the other but I do believe it is still the primary max security prison for soldiers. My Father was stationed their for 3 years in the early 80's. What I remember the most (being a child at the time) was all the grocery baggers at the commissary were inmates on good behavior work release.
My Uncle Mac was stationed there in the mid 60's. My aunt was always saying how nice the young soldiers who cleaned up the stable were. She was shocked to find out they were prisoners.
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This is going to be a long drawn out political mess. Who was that soldier that tossed a grenade into a tent killing 3 or 4 and wounding 10 or 12. He was sentenced to death. Last I heard he was appealing and it could go on for years. What a sad mess this is going to be. God Bless the friends and family of these great americans. Say your prayers for them........thier going to need them.
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Just saw a news story recently his appeal was rejected, (they are automatic in capital cases) so he will receive lethal injection.