Maybe It's Just Time For America To Go.

[Pathfinder]

Substitute "libertarian", (screw that!) , lets call a spade a spade and say classical liberalism, for conservative and I am on board. The difference is this. A clasical liberal, in the spirit of Locke, Jefferson, Mill and Franklin, believes that lassiez faire applies not just to our economic choices, but our lifestyle decisions as well. The government has two main mandates. 1) provide security, infrastructure, education and a neutral court of law to settle disputes. 2) To leave me the hell alone otherwise, beyond asking me for my time, money, forbearance or blood to acomplish objective one. Anything else is BS. People should rise or fall on their own merits. I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. I also feel zero need to be policeman to the world. Imperial overeach isn't a theory, its reality. Let the UN deal with the nonsense. If they try to dictate our laws, well, we have nukes for a reason.
FQ13 who is socially libereal, fiscally conservative and a cold blooded realist when it comes to FP. In short, the same position our founders took. Find me a candidate who backs these ideas and I will vote for them.

Where to start?

Jefferson and Franklin only represent one side of the Founding Fathers' thinking. An important part, but if you only take their word for it, you're missing a huge part of the thinking.

"I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. " - yes, yes you are. Read the Cain and Able story in Genesis and learn the lesson. Since you won't, I'll net it out for you. It does not mean that you are required to destroy yourself to help everyone, but it does mean you are to be aware that they are in need. You are responsible for knowing - and acting accordingly.

"socially liberal" - in this day and age, this means the absolute contrary position to what Jefferson and Franklin believed. "Socially liberal" today means in your face anything goes and you damn well better not only be "tolerant", but will be called upon to "celebrate" abhorrent, counter-productive, and socially destructive behaviors. The Founders were the products of a society that used the stocks to punish those who transgressed societal norms.

Even you believe in some societal norms, else why would you have said in a previous post "Come legally and assimilate"? Assimilate to what?  Answer - some sort of societal norm that has limits.

"Socially liberal" and "classical liberal" are not the same thing, not even close. And this is why I refer to you as a faux "libertarian" - you have been so thoroughly indoctrinated into believing the modern American "socially liberal" part that you have confused it with the "classic liberal" concepts.

[Solus]

Where to start?



"I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. " - yes, yes you are. Read the Cain and Able story in Genesis and learn the lesson. Since you won't, I'll net it out for you. It does not mean that you are required to destroy yourself to help everyone, but it does mean you are to be aware that they are in need. You are responsible for knowing - and acting accordingly.

Path, I know this is not your intent with that directive, but it is surely the justification for MANY wrongs.  To paraphrase BC, it all depends upon your definition of 'need'.

For instance.  I KNOW my neighbor/brother NEEDS to keep his firearms from harming others, so I will act accordingly and make it LAW that he keeps them disassembled and lock up.

Abortion doctors are killed with this justification.  I do not know if you believe that killing for this reason is morally justified or not, but others have been killed for wearing provocative clothes. 

There is, and should be, a distinction between moral and legal.  J-walking is illegal, but I would not consider it immoral.  Not attending church services or otherwise keeping holy the Sabbath may be considered immoral, but I do not believe it should be made illegal.

 

[jnevis]

A little late to this game but...

Actually 9-11 happened because our government lacked the guts to kill some one (Bin Laden ) that even BJ knew needed killing.

The seed was sown when Slick Willy was still in diapers.  A lot of it can be traced to the end of WW2 and the way the area was divided up, and the establishment of Israel.  The Arabs left the rest of the world basically alone until the 70s when the Iranian's began actively pursuing the radicallization of Islam.  Once we started funding little bush wars all over the world it was only a matter of time before it bit us in the a$$.  The Afghans, through Pakistan, were getting BILLIONS from us to fight the Russians.  Same thing in South America.  Then once the Russians stopped being a threat we left.  Funding went to nothing and the populance got pissed that we hung them out to dry.  Now they had a reason to hit the US and a lot of training and equipment to do it.  If you haven't already, read Charlie Wilson's War, the movie glosses over a lot of it but you'd get the idea, especially towards the end.  He knew that cutting all the funding for the Afghan's would get us into trouble.  We're out to prove history repeats itself in Iraq and Afghanistan AGAIN.  

We're leaving Iraq right when they need us the most.  Looking back it has taken at least a decade to get a "stable" government and  effective infrastructure in place even in "modern industrialized" nations, such as Japan and Germany after WW2 or the US after the Revolution.  We are expected to believe that the Iraqi's or Afghan's can do it in less than five without help?  

On the original post:
The Japanese tolerate our presence on the mainland but would much rather see us leave.  Okinawa has had enough but there isn't a better place to be.  Guam is to far from China/North Korea while Taiwan is WAY to close.  PI and South Korea are out as well.

[tombogan03884]

FQ, To steal from Paths post, not only do "Jefferson and Franklin only represent one side of the Founding Fathers' thinking."
They also represent most of the FAILED ideas of the Founders, I will use their opposition to a standing Navy as just one example.
The Humanist concepts of "Locke, Jefferson, Mill and Franklin" that assume every one is basicly good and will do the "Right" thing if given a choice is the philosophy that led Europe to Fascism and gas chambers .
College is NO PLACE to learn about humanity, nor will you learn by reading the thoughts of others who merely sat around and THOUGHT about it.
If you REALLY want to understand how people interact, move to the worst area in your town, get a job at the local factory that does NOT do drug testing, and watch how your neighbors and co workers interact.
OR, put several packs of wolves with a few females in heat in a pen a little to small, with not quite enough food.
Then you will see how the real world works.
In college, while there may be scum bags and youthful aggression, the process of getting in has already weeded out a major segment of society so it is NOT a representative cross section.