Weapon Lights Stats = Best Defense

[D-FORCE]

This question is directed probably towards L/E or defense trainers... I am trying to find out if there are any statistics or science on weapon mounted lights and off hand light shooting reflex tactics and speed.

My simple question is there a higher correlation in accidental shootings using a handgun mounted light since you are using your weapon as the pointer of the light versus using an off hand flashlight tactic?

Secondly, have there been any speed tests as to whether brain and reflex is faster to properly recognize and shoot threat target with a weapons mounted tactical light versus off hand light?

Lastly, really trying to focus in on the "Best Defense" methods is there any statistical proof whether outcomes of gun on gun force when using equally bright weapons mounted light or employing an offhand off center or "FBI" style light hold produce better results?  Basically if you put shooter against shooter on average is the weapons mounted light versus the off hand light shooter going to have any measurable advantage?  (The last question is probably the most difficult b/c very hard to isolate "all things being equal" in a shoot out).

[fightingquaker13]

 Basically if you put shooter against shooter on average is the weapons mounted light versus the off hand light shooter going to have any measurable advantage?  (The last question is probably the most difficult b/c very hard to isolate "all things being equal" in a shoot out).

Put Tom and TAB toghether in a dark room and bring a stopwatch. As far as yor other questions, I am also curious. All I can say is that light on a pistol is bulky, but you also have one free hand for mag changes, steadying yourself if you trip, etc.
FQ13

[Michael Janich]

I've had the pleasure of working with Ken Good, Vaughn Baker, and Mark Warren (the latter two currently run Strategos, which offers outstanding low-light training). I talked at length with Ken and Vaughn about their development of modern low-light tactics, teaching fleet Marines ship boarding and clearing tactics on ships with no electricity. Since there was no strong doctrine at the time, they tried everything--ultimately settling on one-handed shooting with the light held in a neck hold or away from the body as it is used intermittently.

Why? Because no matter where the light was, in the dark against someone else armed with a gun, the light got shot. Simple logic therefore dictates that any shooting technique that puts the light in front of your body increases your chances of getting shot.

Weapon-mounted lights make more sense for shoulder weapons--especially when you bring along a few armed friends.

I've never seen any definitive stats on any of this stuff. I also try to remember that, as a civilian, my real need to engage in low-light firefights is much less than my need to seek cover and escape.

Stay safe,

Mike

[fightingquaker13]

I've had the pleasure of working with Ken Good, Vaughn Baker, and Mark Warren (the latter two currently run Strategos, which offers outstanding low-light training). I talked at length with Ken and Vaughn about their development of modern low-light tactics, teaching fleet Marines ship boarding and clearing tactics on ships with no electricity. Since there was no strong doctrine at the time, they tried everything--ultimately settling on one-handed shooting with the light held in a neck hold or away from the body as it is used intermittently.

Why? Because no matter where the light was, in the dark against someone else armed with a gun, the light got shot. Simple logic therefore dictates that any shooting technique that puts the light in front of your body increases your chances of getting shot.

Weapon-mounted lights make more sense for shoulder weapons--especially when you bring along a few armed friends.

I've never seen any definitive stats on any of this stuff. I also try to remember that, as a civilian, my real need to engage in low-light firefights is much less than my need to seek cover and escape.

Stay safe,

Mike

Great post. Thanks. Could you describe the "neck hold" though? I'm not sure what that is. I'd also offer this. As a civilian, if I ever use a gun, it will probably (hopefully, just to simplify legal matters) be when someone is breaking into my home. This will probably be at night. Any suggestions you have would be appreciated.
FQ13

[garand4life]

Someone once recommended to me that in a home defense situation keeping a light on the gun and using a handheld light provides the best of both worlds. It allows you to search and identify with a hand held light as Michael was saying but allows you the option if needing to evacuate a child or family member while maintaining a good firing grip with the assistance of a light if need be. It also allows for you to maintain a light on a compliant intruder allowing you to be on the phone with police etc. So using a handheld light is key but having a light on the gun gives you some extra or at least redundant options if one hand needs to be carrying out other tasks associated with the "aftermath" of an incident.

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[Michael Janich]

The neck hold is basically like the FBI position, but with the light held closer to the shoulder/neck. The shooting arm is extended for one-handed shooting. In this position, the light is not in front of the body, but is also not so far away from the body that aiming the light feels "detached" or that the extended arm bumps into things. This position also provides some illumination of the sights with the corona of the beam, which can really help accuracy.

Garand4life, the "someone" you might be referring to was Rob in this season's "Best Defense." He made that exact point with regard to the utility of a weapon-mounted light for home defense. In that context, it makes perfect sense and you don't have the issues of having to holster a gun with a mounted light.

I recently had a "discussion" with a hard-core Weaver shooter who insisted that the Harries was the pinnacle of low-light shooting technique because it provide a mechanically comparable shooting position to that of the Weaver. When it became clear that he was extremely dogmatic about this opinion, I asked him if he was familiar with the four rules of gun safety. He began rattling them off verbatim, but I stopped him after "Never let your muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy." My comment was, "So anything in the dark is worth destroying?" He didn't want to chat much after that.

Rob and I emphasize "training in context." When it comes to low light shooting for civilians, that's really important. SWAT stuff is fun, but focus on the skills and tactics you'll need most.

Stay safe,

Mike

[garand4life]

Michael, you're probably right, and I'm sure I heard it also from MB on the podcast which I'm sure was being quoted from Rob.

[Michael Bane]

Actually, I'm cribbing from Bill Murphy, one of the guys who refined the SureFire techniques and IMHO one of the best firearms trainers on earth, and John Meyer, formerly of the H-K training cadre and now head of Team One Network training, who has been refining low-light training for Streamlight. BTW, my original low-light training was with Bill Rogers when we were still using Mini-MagLites. A lot of the wepons' mounted light training was developed for and evolved from law enforcement and, again IMHO, not applicable for non-LEO application.

My recommendation — and my practice — is that the weapon mounted light is the secondary light source. The primary light source is always a hand-held light for the reasons outlined by Mike and Rob:

• The light gets shot at. It's probably helpful if the light isn't positioned in front of your heart...
• A weapon mounted light means the muzzle of the gun goes where the light goes, and — correct me if I'm wrong — but we don't want to point the gun at anything we're not willing to kill or destroy, such as a child, your new 90-inch plasma or even Fluffy the Hamster.
• A weapon mounted light lacks the search versatility of a handheld light.

Still, a weapon mounted light is a great advantage for several reasons:

• When things go bump in the night, you only have to grab one thing if the light's on the gun...if necessary (and, no, it shouldn't be), you can flick on the gun light to find the handheld light.
• In the Real World it's conceivable you might need one of your hands for something important, such as staying in physical contact with or restraining a child or Spousal Unit, punching in 911, holding a door open or pushing aside a piece of furniture...a weapon mount light gives you the option of using one of your hands without compromising your tactical situation.
• A weapon mount light is the perfect tool if you as a civilian find it necessary to hold a aggressor at gunpoint while waiting for the police. Ideally, you've got the aggressor laying flat on the floor, arms spread wide, legs spread and eyes looking AWAY from you (the intent here is to minimize your risk of the aggressor being able to resume the attack). You may need to be on the phone with the police at this point. The weapon mount light should be ON (even if the room lights are on), with the gun pointed AT THE FLOOR slightly away from the aggressor...should the aggressor make a move you can quickly index the gun/light onto the aggressor's eyes.

John Meyer quite correctly took me to task for saying we should cover an unarmed aggressor on the ground with the gun/light (back to that Rule thingie); however, if I am in that situation the gun/light remans on the aggressor's face until he/she is spread-eagled down and looking away. Only then does the gun come off the threat, but NOT very far off the threat.

Michael B
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