Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it

[Overload]

I'm reminded of the story Michael tells of pulling a .25 on a bad guy.  The BG reaction, 'Tell me what do I have to do to get out of this alive.' or something like that.  That's my reaction to having guns pointed at me, either by bad guys or police.

[alfsauve]

1) First and foremost, the "Mike O'Day Rule" is immediately in effect:

"Here lies the grave of Mike O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
His right was clear
And his will was strong
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong"

The SHORT version of this is, you don't want to be "dead right".

[Ulmus]

Thank you.  Thank you. Thank you for such a well written and spoke podcast today.  I learned a lot from it and will probbaly replay it every day for a week.  I also plan on passing this on to my friends and relatives who are gun-phobic to show that most gun owners are not of the Rambo Mentality.  This podcast clearly shows the responsibility side of gun ownership.

I wish it hadn't come from such a high cost.

[ratcatcher55]

I remember John Farnam calling on all of us who carry a firearm every day to become professional gun men and women. This term encompassed military, law enforcement and civilians with carry permits. John meant of becoming a lifelong student and observing a personal code of conduct that would reflect positively on us all as member of the warrior class.

Letting yourself get agitated and indignant because someone questions your right to carry in a business does not lend itself to de-escalation and avoidance. Let your lawyer get indignant; they do it for a living and are probably much better at it than you are.

The responding police officers may be getting mixed messages from dispatch on who is doing what and who is the aggressor. The only thing coming through loud and clear is that somebody has a gun.

In that case some officers will be rushing to the “big” call with what can be described as all balls, no brains. There will be others that will be terrified that they could be putting their own lives on the line. A large group will be planning their actions on the arrival on how they will control the scene and identify the suspect just as you would expect seasoned officers should behave.

All the responding officers will be suffering to some extent from the same physiological and psychological stresses that you should expect in this kind of situation. There will be varying degrees of tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and time-space distortion. The better trained and experience officers will be able to control and minimize these issues.

The excitable, poorly trained or frightened officers will not. They will see guns that are not there. They will give conflicting orders for the suspect to follow. They may not hear anything other officers are saying or that the suspect is answering to. They see frustration as aggression. They see confusion as defiance. They see movement as the opening of an attack.

This group of officers will kill you if you do not de-escalate the situation by becoming the most complaint person possible. If you follow the advice of the trainers above you’ll never get to this stage. Act professionally.

[Rastus]

..................

7) On confrontations with the police, I think we're probably on the same page here — DROP THE GUN, if it's in your hand; if it's not in your hand, KEEP YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR AND MAKE NO MOVE TOWARD YOUR HOLSTERED GUN! Do exactly as you're told! If you're taken into custody, ASK FOR YOUR LAWYER and then SHUT UP!

Okay...what do you guys think so far?

Perhaps one thing to consider to add if "they" called in. 

Discredit the information in the call that "they" made to plant a seed of doubt in the mind of whoever is or will be in control or who may be writing the report.  In this you can sidestep at least two things I would consider as mistakes in making your point. 

One, justifying one's self which is not going to be well received at the beginning.  Lots of people I have been around who were arrested red handed were "innocent" or "justified"....that is standard fare and no one is going to listen until everything is secure and probably not then...hold your breath.  Secondly, ponder that the police are going to be "righteous" and will be going on the best information they have so avoid discrediting them for being "stupid" when they are doing the best anyone can do early on.

I do feel we should consider discrediting the information "they" provided to 911 without 1) justifying our actions or 2) berating the officers.  Consider the info drifting out of Vegas with terms like "drug crazed" coming out.  Even if the initial call in by "them" was accurate, consider nearly all other human communications which 3rd or 4th hand may be nothing like reality.  By the time the information filters down to the guys late on the scene there is no telling what they may have heard.  Hence it may be worth trying to recognize if there is an opportunity to discredit the call in "they" made.

I ponder that I would only do that if a direct statement was received from the officer like, lending from the example above, "Where are your drugs?"  I consider that instead of claiming my innocence I would attack the information without attacking the officer.  Maybe something like, "I don't understand what you mean about drugs, search me yourself (they will anyway) and, please, I want to know who made that false allegation so I can file a complaint."  Just a little something planted to come back to later.

Just brainstorming here.  It seems there may be room to develop something like this at the right time and place to augment the other things we've learned to do.

[Sponsor]

[SIG229DAK]

While it seems mistakes were made by all parties involved, only Eric didn't get to go home that day.

On other forums I've heard he was a drug addict, that he'd been accused in 2 domestic violence incidents and that he "pulled his gun and aimed it at the police".    One policeman said he touched Mr. Harris on the arm as he was leaving the store.   If he was that close why didn't he just Taze him instead of killing him?

Anyway I emailed Costco's Corporate office last Wednesday, asking for their official statement on members wearing guns and of course haven't had a reply of any kind.    I hope they lose their 'butts' in the civil trial - but Eric will still be dead - because of one Costco employee's over reaction.

[seeker_two]

I'm no expert....but I think that the best policy when confronted with police while armed is NEVER TOUCH YOUR GUN.  If it's in your hand, drop it. If it's in your holster, put your hands on your head and...even if the cops tell you to take it out....NEVER TOUCH YOUR GUN.  Keep your hands on your head and tell the cops where it is (IWB, ankle holster, etc.). Tell them you won't resist, but they have to take it themselves. This way, if nothing else, there's no video or eyewitness account of you reaching for your gun....

JMHO.....worth every penny you've paid for it....

[Solus]

I agree, Seeker.

If I were holding my firearm when the officers arrived, I'd be holding it by the muzzle with a thumb and finger far from my body and moving slowly to set it on the ground.

And I'd very politely ask them to remove my holstered weapon if they wished me to do so.  No use risking a sneeze or fumble or anything as I was nervously trying to draw with a few pistols pointed at me.  Easier and safer to just unbuckle and drop my pants.

 

[seeker_two]

Easier and safer to just unbuckle and drop my pants.
 

Be careful....around here, that would get you shot....

[tombogan03884]

Depending on what I ate, I might deserve to get shot