The case for the .45

[texcaliber]

As I remember is was Rem but don't hold my feet to the fire on that.

My personal defence load is the Rem. Golden Saber 185gr+P out of the S&W 1911PD and my G19 likes the +P also but using a chrono my velocities are way faster than those tested. I wonder if that would have a neg. or pos. affect?

[someguy]

As an aside, I had a conversation recently with a co-worker of mine who was previously the head armorer for the local PD...
We were talking about various calibers and brands, when he informed me of a test he performed that resulted in a change
of the carry load for the whole city's PD to Speer Gold Dots.  I've always carried Hydra-Shocks, and have always heard great
things about them, so I was a bit surprised when he indicated that the testing they ran with dummies in clothing (not sure
if the dummies were gelatin, meat or other) resulted in the jackets seperating from the core in virtually every round fired
EXCEPT for the bonded bullets, ie. GD's.  I haven't known him all that long, but I am trying to either get more info (preferably
documentation) of what tests were done, or simply get him to join up here and post it himself.  That said, I haven't enough
experience with this type of testing to have any particular reason to doubt or confirm this, although I have confirmed that
the local PD is using the GDs now.

So how related to the .45 issue?  Mostly because the bonded bullets - in 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP - all outperformed the
non-bonded bullets in any caliber.  Again, I intend to clarify just what those performance standards were, and I will post
when I get some clarification.  Just thought it might be discussion-worthy.  YMMV.

[2HOW]

Excellent point someguy, another fact is that very high velocity bullets tend to come apart easier than slower bullets. As showed on the box o truth some high velocity bullets just plugged and never expanded, and frangibles mostly disentegrated upon impact or didnt penetrate far enough to do heavy damage. remember there are only 2 ways to cause incapacitation, blood lose, and central nervous system interuption. If its not a good head shot or doesnt impact the spine it had better create alot of big holes so blood lose is extensive, and even at that an attacker has some minutes to do you harm.

[2HOW]

Mr. Larry Fletcher, of the Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences (formerly the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences), feels that Chapter 5 misrepresents his organization’s findings. He emphatically disagrees with Marshall’s and Sanow’s recommendation of lightweight, high-velocity projectiles such as the 9mm 115gr and 115gr +P+ JHP, .357 Magnum 110gr and 125gr JHP bullets, and .45 ACP 185gr +P JHP bullets. The Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences finds the overexpansion and excessive fragmentation exhibited by these bullets results in stretch and crush cavities at too shallow a depth. Mr. Fletcher strongly emphasizes that all of these loads offer inadequate performance for law enforcement use since they exhibit insufficient penetration to consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from the transverse and oblique angles commonly encountered in law enforcement shootings. The Dallas County Institute of Forensic Sciences recommends cartridges which offer reasonable penetration and reliable expansion without fragmentation, such as the 9mm 147gr JHP, .40 S&W 180gr JHP, and .45 ACP 230gr JHP.

[m25operator]

I think this mimics what to some degree what I've had in the field, spine or brain shots are the best, regardless of what is used. The largest deer i have on the wall weighed 225 lbs. Not my choice, but when he presented himself I was looking for turkey, 55 grain Barnes x hollow point. I told myself, if your going to take this shot, and no doubt I would, shoot for the neck. He dropped  on the spot, my wife shot a 400+lb
russian boar, with a 7mm-08 in the neck, just behind the ear, again, dropped in his tracks. Sometimes shot placement does not mean center of mass.  Center of cortex is more like it.

But you all know, we carry what we carry because we can under x circumstances, in my truck I carry a .45 acp, in my pocket, I carry a 9mm. and no one has ever noticed. My model 21 Glock kind of stands out in my daily routine. I basically agree, bigger is better, but not always practical.

[Sponsor]

[texcaliber]

Excellent point someguy, another fact is that very high velocity bullets tend to come apart easier than slower bullets. As showed on the box o truth some high velocity bullets just plugged and never expanded, and frangibles mostly disentegrated upon impact or didnt penetrate far enough to do heavy damage. remember there are only 2 ways to cause incapacitation, blood lose, and central nervous system interuption. If its not a good head shot or doesnt impact the spine it had better create alot of big holes so blood lose is extensive, and even at that an attacker has some minutes to do you harm.

We are missing a very important target for defence. The GROIN. I dont care how tough, drugged-up, psyco, or any other varible you cant walk-off a shattered hip. The blood lose will be massive and internal due to the artery. OH YEA, and it is painful, so they will KNO they are hit.

[DonWorsham]

We are missing a very important target for defence. The GROIN.

But with those baggy pants, you can't be sure you'll hit the target. So...zipper up the dude!

[texcaliber]

But with those baggy pants, you can't be sure you'll hit the target. So...zipper up the dude!

As for the baggy pants, if your aim is the pants then your to far south. North of those are the boxers sticking out of the pants which are worn correctly. And  yes, the technique is a lace the perp as his or her base gives out from under them, but this is only what I have been trained.

tex

[2HOW]

I like the "zipper"  just ride it up .