Arizona's CCW without permit bill?

[SIG229DAK]

The state of Arizona is considering a bill to allow honest citizens to carry concealed without getting a government CCW, as the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution would allow and some states already have passed.
   The couple that owns Insight firearms training in Arizona sent a letter to all it's students, asking that they vote AGAINST passing this law!   I wrote them with my opposition to their letter and they responded back today -

"Dear Responder,

Please accept our apology for not responding sooner to your response to our
email. We are out of state on a training seminar and have been in session
daily for long hours. Today was our first opportunity.

We're sorry if we offended you. Protecting our rights is also a concern of
ours. We just have a different opinion as to why our rights are at stake to
begin with and how to protect them.

We train in many areas, from Civilian, Military, Law Enforcement, Security
and NRA (Instructor Level), as well as develop curriculum for all types of
firearms training, not just the CCW.  Therefore our income is not dependent
solely on the CCW Training we provide, nor is our business dependent on the
actions of the government either way.

We are supporters of the Second Amendment and are not against people
exercising that right. We also believe that every Right has a corresponding
Duty. We believe training may very well be a key factor in retaining or
losing the very right our Second Amendment provides.  We applaud those who
have willingly sought out training on their own to become educated on gun
ownership.

That being said, as firearms instructors we see many students come into our
courses for training who have no clue or idea what the laws (both State
Statutes and case law) are in regards to owning or using a firearm in self
defense or any other purpose, let alone how to safely and properly handle or
store their firearms. We feel that it is the informed and knowledge gun
owners who will play an important role in allowing us to protect our Second
Amendment Rights, not those who choose to remain ignorant of the
responsibilities that come with that right.  It¹s sad to say, but there are
many in our society who will not seek appropriate training on their own.
It¹s those who choose not to get training, act negligently and make stupid
careless mistakes, who are the greatest threat to protecting our Second
Amendment Rights. Mandated training is not the enemy, yet, it could play a
very important role in saving our rights in the long run. Therefore in order
to protect our rights we will support mandated training whenever it is
available. Just because we have rights doesn't mean it always makes sense to
exercise those rights without more thought in the process. Additionally,
though AZ is an Open Carry State, we do not support "Open Carry" That is
like putting a target on your forehead or back and inviting trouble!

Additionally, our forefathers didn¹t have to worry about the negative
effects that every form of media has on our newer generations and the
reality it has provided. Many of the current beliefs associated with guns
come from this medium and it has severely impacted the reality people have
today.  If you have not done so please read Col. Grossmans book On Killing
or On Combat. We work closely with numerous police and prosecutors and have
been told that close to 90% of gun cases are related directly to people's
ignorance of the law or gun safety responsibilities. This type of behavior
is what jeopardizes our Second Amendments Rights. Mandated Training is a
solid solution to people who don¹t understand the importance of their
responsibilities with regards to gun ownership and a potential way to
protect our rights. With every Right comes a Corresponding DUTY and most do
not accept that DUTY willingly. There are many other additional factors that
need to be considered, aside from the right itself.

We hear on a consistent basis from our students that they had no idea the
responsibilities and liabilities they faced while exercising their Second
Amendment Rights until after taking this course, including post law
enforcement, military retirees and life long gun owners. Over 90% tell us
after completing the training that if they knew before, what they learned in
class, they would have had the knowledge to be much more responsible gun
owners. They also tell us they couldn¹t imagine carrying a gun without the
new knowledge they gained in our class. The majority also support not only
our efforts to train and enlighten those who have been in the dark for so
long, but continued mandated training.

Our training is significantly different in numerous aspects. The teaching
process we use allows our students to actually retain the information they
receive unlike other training programs. If you are really concerned about
our position on mandated training, and have not done so previously, please
attend our class and allow us to introduce you to the un-informed CCW
applicants who come to us for training. Maybe if you see things from their
perspective before and after our class you will understand why we are so
committed to this program and assuring mandated training continues.

We also realize there are those who use Alaska and Vermont as an example of
why this law should pass, since they have not had any issues. That may be
so, yet they are not comparing apples to apples. Example, those states are
very different from other states. They are extremely rural in nature, have a
different population number from other states and most brought up in those
areas are raised with guns from early on. There is a big difference in that
and those from urban or metropolitan areas. We know because we see it on a
daily basis.

Please understand that though we respect your beliefs we do not hold them as
our own, hopefully you will do the same. It will be up to each individual in
our society to voice their own opinion to their legislators and fight for
their rights in the way that seems appropriate for them. I'm sure there will
be many who stand on both sides of support for this issue.

Sincerely,
Sherrie & Matt Seibert
-------------------------------------------
So, if you're wealthy or well educated, the 2nd Amendment applies to you.   But if you can't afford or choose not to go to their training it doesn't?   Guess I should be forced to get training before I'm allowed to use my 1st Amendment rights too?   I strongly advise anyone who carries a firearm to get good training, but the government should NOT force me to prove I have the RIGHT to do so.
With "friends" like the Seibert's who needs Sarah Brady.

[Rob10ring]

If I still lived in AZ, they wouldn't be getting any of my training dollars. While training may be invaluable, it shouldn't be mandatory to exercise one's rights. Educating yourself to be effective and responsible with your own rights is unquestionable every individual's responsibility and each individual should be allowed to determine their own course for acquiring that knowledge and those skills how they see fit. That said, I hope they go out of business.

[scott.ballard]

But...but...but...wait

I'm a professional trainer and my livelihood is dependent on government mandated training.  Of course I'm against this new bill...in fact, I think I'll use the influence from my position of authority to tell others how to think. 

sarcasm over:

I'm all for training.  I am actually a huge advocate of it.  Just not when it is foisted upon people.

I've seen some really scary graduates of some of the best shooting schools in the country.  If the student lacks the capacity to maintain the information beyond the door, it really doesn't matter if the law required it or not.

Time to hold people accountable for their own actions.  Let's start with the Sieberts.

Stay Safe,

[twyacht]

There was a post recently, with an "experienced" shooter that shot himself in the leg over an improper holstering technique, at a range, getting further instruction and training.

That said, unfortunately, the days of our Father's and Grandfather's instilling proper firearm handling, safety, respect for those around you, hunting skills, even cleaning and maintenance, are not as prevalent as they used to be.

I see the young shooter(s), come to the range, rent a Glock, Sig, (brand doesn't matter), because they saw one in a movie or their video game on the Play Station has one, get a box of ammo, 15 seconds on function, and grab their targets and go shoot.

There have been posts of Range Horror Stories, with just flat out STUPID, inept handling practices, that by the Grace of God, no one was accidentally, or negligently shot.

I see the sticky widget on this issue. No other Amendment carries such weight as the ability to quickly acquire a literal implement of lethal force. The personal irresponsibility of an individual not to learn proper rules, even the basics, is dangerous to not just the shooter, but those around them.

However, the slippery slope is how far do you take it? IMHO, some reasonable level of proficiency "should" be demonstrated, the level of how "regulated" it is, can be tough, as it will vary from person, county, state, region, etc,....

There again, read the 2nd Amendment. It does not state "those shall be trained, and deemed competent" shall "only" have the Right To Bear Arms....

It states the rights of the People to bear arms shall not be infringed....

[PegLeg45]

For those interested:

http://www.insightfirearmstraining.com/contact/

Insight Firearms Training Dev. LLC
PO Box 12293, Prescott AZ 86304-2293
Tel: 928-708-9208
Cell: 928-925-0378
FAX: 828-776-4668
E-Mail: seibert@insightfirearmstraining.com

[Sponsor]

[tt11758]

The one fact they fail to mention is that, under CURRENT Arizona law, NO permit is needed to open carry.  In other words, while these "friends" of our's propose requiring training before being issued a concealed carry permit, there is NO training required to open carry in that state.  If for no other reason, the proposed legislation makes sense.

My opinion, and God knows I'm not the owner of a highly-profitable training facility who would see my income decrease if the law were passed........in other words, not an "expert" on the subject.



Great!!  Now I've got sarcasm dripping from my monitor!!