4 Police Officers Shot Dead Near Washington State Air Force Base

[tombogan03884]

2 things that have crossed my mind about this.
It seems like where they lost the fight was in their minds before it ever started, "They were PREPARING to go on duty". They would have had a better chance had they put on their "On Duty" mindset when they put on the Uniform. Dirt bags that see them in uniform don't know or care if they are "On Duty" yet, they see a Uniformed Cop . ( I hope I expressed that clearly)
My second thought concerns the fact  Clemmons WAS shot by one of the Officers. Some articles I've seen said in the stomach, others say in the chest. This underlines the need to keep pumping rounds into a threat until it goes down.
While I disagree with Rob that the Mozambique drill is not good for TRAINING, you MUST avoid the mindset of firing 2 or three rounds and "assessing". If the threat is still upright and facing you there is nothing to assess, keep hammering it, compared to your life ammo is cheap.

[TAB]

A friend of mine said something last night about it, that would have stoped this.  no more then 2 officers can be seated at the same table.  if the 4 had been split up and several tables apart, chances are good that the other 2 could have atleast returned fire.

[2HOW]

2Show,

One thing force on force training showed me is how screwed you are if stuck in the reacting mode.

Get some airsoft pistols and masks.
Go get 4 friends and have them seated with duty holsters on. Tell them to react when they see a threat.  Walk several people by them.  Walk up and shoot the two facing you, then the two with their backs turned towards you. Even an old man like me should be able to kill them all before the can get a pistol out of the holster.

I agree they were too complacent but unless they expected an attack they were in a very big hole.

Whenever you are in uniform you are a target. These people were as much asleep as the 2 pilots who flew past the airport. I hate it but the truth is they were complacent. You have to be in condition yellow all the time these days. I disagree with your scenario. Proper training and this guy would not have done this.

Force on force training when you use some realistic senerios is a real eye opener.

[L.E. Keeney]

Folks

Its going around that the shooter was a member of the local Nation of Islam chapter up there. Can anyone confirm this?

[MikeBjerum]

Ratcatcher -

The only problem with your plan is that by equiping themselves for the exercise, (masks and such) they will be in a hightened state of awareness.  Training officers need to make an effort of simulating attacks at meetings and gatherings with officers (do this in settings where they are unarmed, so they don't shoot in reaction). It is a matter of educating officers that there is no such thing as a perfectly safe place.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

Have them wear the masks at all gatherings ( except meals of course) and then jump them in a couple of them to get them used to the idea that they are never "safe".
And use paint balls on them so they get the same shock value seeing the guy across from them suddenly splattered red.

[MikeBjerum]

As has been quoted so much and credited to so many that no one really knows who said it first, "Why did you wear your gun?  Are you expecting trouble?"  "No, if I had been expecting trouble here I wouldn't have come."  Be prepared and ready at all times in all places is the only way to stand a chance.  No guarantees, but at least not a sitting duck.

[GUNS-R-US]

Got to look at reality here Ratcatcher, there are a lot of dirtbags out there and some of them DO wear Badges, it is fortunate that this was not the case here.
But Here's a little list just off the top of my head : Detroit cops pulling B&E's, Night shift cops in both NY and Miami convicted of robbing dope dealers and reselling the drugs, 2 NY detectives convicted of passing information and conducting hits for the Mafia, a FBI agent working on OC in NY same thing, In Boston the entire FBI Office was getting presents from Whitey Bulger because 2 of them were in his pocket, it was never proven that Connelly KILLED any one for him, but it WAS proven that he passed information to Bulger that led to the murders of at least 2 people, Brian Halloran, and Kevin Weeks.

So don't get to snippy if when things like this happen people want ALL the facts before assuming any one is innocent.

This is still AMERICA and innocent until proven guilty!!!!! So getting snippy with someone that make accusations before all the Facts IS perfectly reasonable! Not every cop is a good cop but it's a profession that our society demands (rightfully) get the benefit of innocent until proven guilty! I think that's why they've made it so difficult to get hired as a cop these days, they want to know everything about you, the process can take 6mo. to a year to get hired and one little white lie or omission in the app process means dismissal/no hire.

[tombogan03884]

 If you re-read my original post you will note that I did not accuse anyone of anything, I simply pointed out some questions I had.
If you or any other current or former Cop on here has a problem with that maybe it's time to forget the "Blue wall" BS and start Policing yourselves.

[Clark Kent]

Don't remember if I saw it here or on Mas Ayoob's blog, but someone made what seems to me to be the best idea yet for avoiding this sort of thing - people in uniform, especially cops, should not all sit together in public.  Separate booths, separate tables, you get the idea.  Also, it might be good policy to have a "designated observer," in such settings - someone not doing paperwork or otherwise occupied, but simply keeping an eye out for suspicious characters.  Might save some lives, and this way everybody doesn't have to go around in condition orange 24/7.