competition value in regard to training (Split from other thread)

[Rob Pincus]

A lot is made about "types" of stress... I think it misses the point.

getting back more on topic now... the catch with any sort of training is that the student knows he is in training or at a match.  There is no element of surprise... there is NO moment like this ....       where you are trying to figure out just what the heck is going on before you decide how to react.  Ya, know...that whole OODA loop thing.

That is the key. High level athletic performance can be incredibly stressful.. but the brain is focused intently on it and recruits a variety of mechanisms (not limited to visualization, but that's a huge one) to make the execution of the expected complex motors skills very precise.

-RJP

[scott.ballard]

Hey Ken and Tyler,

Thanks for your insights!

If I understand correctly, what you and MB are saying is that small levels of stress throughout your daily travels, be they work related, daily societal interactions or through competition, help you to handle the high degree stress situations better.

If that is true then I imagine it is possible for a person to be over exposed and appear relaxed or even complacent in deadly force situations.  Isn't this the point where unconscious competence clicks on?  That competence which comes from repetition in context.

Do you suppose that a person's stress inoculation is a perishable thing which requires periodic re-affirmation?

How would you propose to reconcile the difference between shoot and no shoot situations?  Did you ever run a competitive stage where you did not shoot?  Conversely, it is highly plausible that in many potentially deadly force encounters, sidearms are drawn (or made ready to be drawn) without being fired far more often than they are drawn and fired.  How would a person deal with the stress of being all dressed up and not being able to go to the dance?  At this point is competition experience or repetitive contextual training of the fundamentals, i.e. finger off trigger, muzzle in safe direction, safety on if appropriate, more beneficial to the amped up shooter?  Yes, you follow those same rules in competition but you still fired first; did you not?

True, competition has no shoot targets, but the player still shoots at some point during the stage.  Admittedly I have not shot competition for many years so if things have changed, I apologize for my ignorance.

I have been told that I come across aggressively at times so with that in mind, please accept my apologies if I have offended.  This is not my intent.  I have nothing but respect for those willing to have an opinion and share it.  Even more so for those who will defend their position.  I thank you for this.

I am sincerely looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  Perhaps there is a middle ground between two points which could prove to beneficial to us all.

Stay Safe,

[scott.ballard]

A lot is made about "types" of stress... I think it misses the point.

That is the key. High level athletic performance can be incredibly stressful.. but the brain is focused intently on it and recruits a variety of mechanisms (not limited to visualization, but that's a huge one) to make the execution of the expected complex motors skills very precise.

-RJP

Only if the competitor is not over-exposed to the stressor.

Someone who competes every week will get into certain habits which could prove fatal?  For example:

If a shooter is trained to clear and show safe his weapon after each stage of shooting that is what he does.  If that same shooter is involved in a deadly force situation then is he not likely to revert to that training and clear and show safe his weapon when he should be scanning his environment, calling for help, checking the wounded and safely working the weapon back to the holster when appropriate?

Does a competition shooter think about his backstop?  They already know that the course is set up to run safely.

Does the reactive defensive shooter get to walk through the course of fire prior to his deadly force engagement?  Only if he has been there before and visualized his responses.  What about all the times where we must go places we have been before?

How many times have you drawn your weapon in defense of life where you did not have to shoot?  How many times have you competed in any athletic endeavor which required you to do nothing? 

The pitcher went through the wind up and we look for the ball and begin our swing. The light turns green and we accelerate.  We jump on our bike and we peddle.  Humans are trained to respond in certain ways.  Competition shooting trains the shooter that he will shoot each time he draws.

Doesn't this create a situation of a predetermined response which would cause the shooter to look for a way to complete what he has been programmed to do?  How many times have we been warned not to create bad habits on the range.  Habits like catching our revolver brass or catching an empty mag so we don't have to pick them up later.  We avoid these things because they create bad habits.  My supposition is that the artificiality of competition creates stress out of context to that of true deadly force encounters, false confidence in abilities and bad habits.

I have never been attacked by a 2 dimensional piece of stationary cardboard or steel.  The dynamic and experience of an actual DF encounter can not be duplicated as it is different for each person.  I propose that the closest we can come is through realistic, winnable, in context and properly administered FOF training.  It is not the same, but it is close and you will use the same decision making skills and actions you would in an actual DF encounter.  At the very least the target will move like a human being and will be 3 dimensional.  More importantly, it will be an actual human which will provide a vitally important inoculation to the shooter.  We all know that a lot of shooters who are excellent shots, freeze when they have to fire on an actual human target.  If we don't train this out through FOF, we are doing a dis-service to our students.

I will concede that high level athletic competition has its place and can be a valuable tool.  How many of our students compete in high level athletic competitions?

Stay Safe,

[MikeBjerum]

An important thing to remember if you are using competition to hone your "real world" training is that you need to compete like you would fight.  If all you compete in is IPSC and drop your mags you will drop your mags in real world fights.  If you shoot IDPA and do all retention and shoot from cover and concealment you will struggle with dropping a mag or being exposed.  If you only shoot Bianchi or bullseye you will find yourself looking for range bags and brass buckets in a fight.

All these items have been brought to my attention by those that got sucked in (law enforcement especially) and their trainers that were finding and reading about things like dead cops with hands and/or pockets full of spent brass, because on the range you don't dump your revolver brass on the ground.

I could go on and on, but the shortest answer is - Yes, there is a place for competition in training, but it is more complex than just playing the game as it was designed.  Also, there is no way to induce the adrenaline shot in training that being timed and hearing the buzzer go off ... unless you can get a friend to bounce lead off the ground around your feet 

[Rastus]

Take this for what it is worth.  I'm an industrial and petroleum engineer by training with an interest and a minor in psychology....all of which means the industrial part likes to put things in a step by step fashion, the petroleum part likes generalities and the psych part helps them both fall apart.

If I understand correctly, what you and MB are saying is that small levels of stress throughout your daily travels, be they work related, daily societal interactions or through competition, help you to handle the high degree stress situations better.

I believe this.

If that is true then I imagine it is possible for a person to be over exposed and appear relaxed or even complacent in deadly force situations.  Isn't this the point where unconscious competence clicks on?  That competence which comes from repetition in context.

My experience with people in stressful situations is that they cannot be overexposed with the right attitude (short of a nervous breakdown, i.e., going crazy).  If a person avoids the "I know it all attitude" I don't think there can be overexposure.  The best people I know be it offshore operators, engineers working a solution with two minutes to get it right or have a blowout or one of the trainers down the street at USSA are the ones who are relaxed and confident.  Exposure begats confidence that when coupled with proper training, I think, exploits the positive symbiotic nature of exposure and training.

....Do you suppose that a person's stress inoculation is a perishable thing which requires periodic re-affirmation?

Yes and no.  Low level contact yes...but think about the traumatic things of life.  I am a believer that traumatic experiences can force a change that is permanent....maybe not the "precision" and timing of a reaction or action which degrades with time, but the direction of the reaction or action continues as conditioned by that traumatic experience.  The stressful situation produced that traumatic experience which was internalized into a person and makes us what we are.  The training hones the reaction that is formed on the basis of who we are (what we internalize, i.e. who we have become in our lives).  Obviously not all stressful situations produce a life change.  I believe some traumatic experiences force an immediate change, others a slower change with a change in outlook and attitude and then some only reinforce what was already "in the well".

....How would you propose to reconcile the difference between shoot and no shoot situations?  Did you ever run a competitive stage where you did not shoot?  Conversely, it is highly plausible that in many potentially deadly force encounters, sidearms are drawn (or made ready to be drawn) without being fired far more often than they are drawn and fired.  How would a person deal with the stress of being all dressed up and not being able to go to the dance?  At this point is competition experience or repetitive contextual training of the fundamentals, i.e. finger off trigger, muzzle in safe direction, safety on if appropriate, more beneficial to the amped up shooter?  Yes, you follow those same rules in competition but you still fired first; did you not?

Good point about always shooting in a competition.  For me it is suppressed by who I am...I don't want to hurt someone much less kill an innocent so...for me to shoot, there are a lot of hurdles that I have to deal with inside.  Competition experience is helpful in that, if we are true competitors, we use our minds quickly to gain the best possible solution which is execise of the thought processes and brain.  Brain exercise is proven and thinking through a problem is the best kind of test and training for students of any kind, in my opinion.  It is also good for the fundamentals...which I always need help on.  I had a real life no shoot just day before yesterday.  My son and I were putting groceries in the truck at night and a guy handing out flyers came from behind a van and ran (literaly ran, a dead run) straight to me in my "hot zone" with something unidentified in his hand (roll of flyers looked like a stick in the dark) as I was putting groceries in the back seat...I saw his movement and immediately reacted to position myself behind the truck door with my IWB weapon toward the inside of the truck and my hand on the grip.  I didn't pull the weapon and he does not know I had my hand on the weapon...you tell me why....I reconciled under that stress (which I did not feel) to protect my son and myself if necessary....it wasn't necessary to go any further and I de-escalated my mindset.  The recognition there was no threat to life was after an assessment...are we hardwired for that...I dunno...competition would tell me to drop the hammer,  the essence of me which is the cumulative product of learning and stress said chill out.

I have been told that I come across aggressively at times so with that in mind, please accept my apologies if I have offended.  This is not my intent.  I have nothing but respect for those willing to have an opinion and share it.  Even more so for those who will defend their position.  I thank you for this.

Every discussion is a learning experience for me.  If we do not test our beliefs and what we surmise we may find, at a particularly bad time, that we were wrong and I am not saying you are wrong.  Whether we agree or disagree, thinking through our thoughts helps us to understand what we believe and why and that, I believe, prepares us for understanding and learning in areas where we do err.  Also, there is often more than one way to skin a cat.....sorry HAZ.

[Sponsor]

[Timothy]

Interesting reading guys, all great dialogue.

My experience is that stressful situations force me to concentrate and focus hard on the issue at hand, my sight, my hearing, my sense of touch and even my sense of smell and taste are enhanced.  Training for certain things, and being ex-military, we trained for every possible scenario, constantly, helps to define the minds reactive response to the stimulus.

I carry a gun, I'm never in a complacent mindset while armed and even when I'm not carrying a firearm, I'm always armed.

[Tyler Durden]

m58 wrote:

If all you compete in is IPSC and drop your mags you will drop your mags in real world fights

First off, that statement is too broad brush and unequivocal for me.

Thinking about a SHTF scenario, in all probabilty, I will probably just keep shooting until the gun goes to slide lock.

I won't be dropping mags all willy nilly like I do in a USPSA match.  That's my guess anyway.

The whole cops found dead with empty brass in their pockets is...well... a dead horse that still to this day continues to be beaten.

 

It is anecdotal.

The nemesis to any anecdotal evidence is ...well...statistical data.

My guess right off the top of my head is that for every one cop found dead with brass in his pockets there were 50 cops who left their brass or mags lay, stayed in the fight, kept their wits about them and ended up on top that day.

But...oh...no....we don't hear about those 50 other cops who walked away just fine...now do we?

I think that is called "salience bias" by the way, that makes you remember the alarming evidence first before all others.

There are other heuristics and biases out there that are also other "mental or cognitive traps"... I'm trying to rack the ol' brain here....availability heuristic comes to mind.

Try this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

so, hmmn...yeah...I might have those two confused.

Here is another think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

[scott.ballard]

Tyler,

Based on empirical data from my own experiences and that of those I have discussed the topic with in depth:

You fight as you train.

Stay safe,

[Tyler Durden]

Maybe you should train as you fight.

"You fight as you train" makes for a good sound byte.

Maybe this whole paradigm of what constitutes training should be scrapped, and something new put in its place.

[scott.ballard]

Maybe you should train as you fight.

"You fight as you train" makes for a good sound byte.

Maybe this whole paradigm of what constitutes training should be scrapped, and something new put in its place.

I'm getting the impression that we are just going to keep going round and round on this one.

My experience has led me to find that the actions I practiced and engrained during training are the same ones I reverted to while under the stresses of a deadly force encounter.  Others I work with, have worked with, or had the opportunity to discuss the topic with all relayed very similar impressions.  That's the reason I believe a person will fight in the same manner in which they train. 

I would welcome any thoughts on what you would replace the contemporary training concepts with if the current system were to be scrapped.

Otherwise, on the topic of competition as a training tool, we should probably just disagree and be done with it.  I think our ideals, beliefs and life experiences are much too different to find common ground.

I'll leave the last word to you.

Thank you for working this over with me.  I'll look forward to the next time.

Best Wishes,