Episode #182

[Ben]

I enjoyed the show.

I registered to post this one thing.

I do not agree that all training is good training.  However, there is good in all training.

Excellent point about bad training leading you to believe that you are prepared for something when you truly are not.

RE: What I think you referred to as "down range training" where someone has shots fired near them (e.g. over his head).  Obvious safety issues aside, I agree that it is not an adequate experience to fully simulate someone trying to kill the student but I can see possible value in desensitization to the physical experience of being in front of the muzzle.

I have not had some one shoot at me with the intent to kill or harm me, however, I have found myself in dangerous situations where a person was recklessly shooting where I was in front of them.  It was not a pleasant experience and I do not recommend someone seeking it out but I did find it educational.

I just started listening to this podcast.  Could somebody point me to the episodes where Mr. Bane discusses his dislike for IWB?

I really enjoyed the show.

Thanks!

Ben

Edit: Typos

[McGyver]

First off, WELCOME Ben! And thanks for posting. Your opinions are always welcome and even if some don't agree with you, we all owe you the right to speak it!   

I believe that Michael was speaking more along the lines of "any training is good training" when you have "no" training at all.
We have some here that are only just curious about or just finding out about SD, guns, and the shooting sports in general and Michael loves to include "those" folks too. (We likey too because it gives each of us a chance to pass it on to them in a nonjudgemental form).

I agree also that bad training leads to bad habits and thoughts.
I can't point you to the exact episode of his dislike for IWB, but most likely it's close to the first ten!

Feel free to post on anything and everything, and enjoy yourself here. We have beer and pretzels in "the corner"! LOL!   

[Michael Bane]

And I'll revisit the IWB issue real soon, too...

RE: downrange training, my fear is a student of such training will believe they have "conquered" some fear that will come back and bite them in the butt at a very bad time. I've done a lot of high-risk training for various looney sports and events, but that training has always focused on very specific fundamental skills.

I think we can all learn to deal with fear as we can with any emotion -- it's not the emotion, after all, but our reaction to the emotion. We can delink the emotion from what we might think of as the logical and inevitable reaction to that emotion.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses!!

Michael B

[tombogan03884]

"downrange training" is a particular peeve of mine.
If things go right, you end up with a bullet in the back stop to no real purpose, if things go wrong, someones brains land there.
No sane, responsible, trainer would engage in such stupidity.

I have to side with MB on the "no bad training", with the caveat that the student has to already have some basic knowledge, in that case any time behind the trigger allows you to practice basics of sight alignment and trigger control.
For the absolute beginner, there is "Bad training" out there and it can get beginners killed.
Beware of any school or Instructor that "guarantees" to make you an "expert .
Remember the Fred Vallari "Karate schools" that guaranteed you'd be a Black belt in 6 months ?    
That's bad training, it got peoples butts beaten in fights and in shooting it can get people killed.

[McGyver]

What Michael called "Down Range Training" is what I was subjected to by military trainers in 1983. THERE IS NO PLACE FOR IT IN CIVILIAN SHTF TRAINING! I never served in the military, but I was trained for civilian SHTF scenarios by military officers for LE. This will usually result in the "Katrina" effect that was experienced in New Orleans. NOT effective training in my book. Michael is correct in not letting "certain" trainers on the show, as they have NO place in the public sector.

[Sponsor]

[philw]

    loved the music at the start   thanks for playing that one.




I would not be a fan of "down range " style of training


also here on an Australian  Army  training ( last year  )   we had a digger killed from down range training or as they call it "battle inoculation" in short he was shot in the head by a fellow digger in a night time training exercise,  we have not heard any more about it other than it was an accident   

[Solus]

When I was in the Army, I ended up as a "target marker" for one of the range sessions for the company.

That meant crouching on a shelf in a trench along the target line, lowering and marking the targets after the round of shots, then raising them to be checked and for the next round of shots.

It was a bit unnerving when the shots were incoming and wood splinters and stones and would be knocked down into the pits. Up on the shelf you were out of the direct line of incoming debris, but it was not a comfortable experience.

It did expose you to an amount of fear with which you needed to deal with and overcome.

Experiencing fear and learning how to deal with it is a lesson that needs to be learned.

I learned most of mine early by climbing tall trees then realizing that going back down was not as secure a venture at going up with your hands and eyes right there to test your new position before committing to it. 

I remember clinging to that tree and considering my options....either staying up there for ever or calling for help or sucking it in and climbing down.   I made the climb down.   I was 6 or 7 at the time.  Didn't stop climbing trees and didn't stop feeling the fear at going back down....just got familiar with the feeling and more secure in my ability do function under it.

So learning about fear is good training, but "downrange" live fire training has to be the most irresponsible way to accomplish that.

.......

I've seen folks turn and fire blindly behind them while running away during "force on force" air soft training.  That tactic never won.

While "FoF' training might not give the exposure to fear, it will allow students to learn to operate under and respond to unpredictable stress and pressure.

[DGF]

As I recall, towards the end of Basic training in the Army we had to face what was called the Infiltration Course. This Infiltration Course consisted of a low crawl through barbed wire while a DI fired machine gun rounds over our heads. We went through the course twice, once during daylight and again at night when they used tracer rounds. We also had to crawl around sand bagged bunkers that contained explosives that  simulated mortar rounds. This was in 1962, I don't know if this training method is still used. I have heard stories of people getting shot accidentally during this exercise, but personally I don't believe it. I think those are stories told by Mall Ninjas.  I also don't know how effective this training was or what I took away from the experience.

[Solus]

As I recall, towards the end of Basic training in the Army we had to face what was called the Infiltration Course. This Infiltration Course consisted of a low crawl through barbed wire while a DI fired machine gun rounds over our heads. We went through the course twice, once during daylight and again at night when they used tracer rounds. We also had to crawl around sand bagged bunkers that contained explosives that  simulated mortar rounds. This was in 1962, I don't know if this training method is still used. I have heard stories of people getting shot accidentally during this exercise, but personally I don't believe it. I think those are stories told by Mall Ninjas.  I also don't know how effective this training was or what I took away from the experience.

Went through the same training in '65.

Sure taught me to focus on the objective, which in that case was getting to the end of the course and out of that mad house.

I lined up on the right of the 3 M2 guns, (which would fire in sequence...first one, then the next and then the third) and waited with my head down till it stopped firing.  Then I crawled as fast as I could till I heard the far left gun firing and sucked sand again.

Got caught with my head up when the mortar simulator went off and lost some night vision...not that it was needed much with those 50s lighting up the field.

I can still remember the wave of heat I felt when the 50 in front of me opened up.  

Made it to the end, crawled past the 50 and pointed the muzzle of my M14 down and gave it a good rap against the cement side of the raised platform the obstacle course was laid out upon, ensuring I'd have little sand in the barrel when it was inspected at the end.

There were strands of barbed wire with tin cans hanging from them that we had to crawl under on our backs with our M14s set on our stomachs.  The plan was to go slow, lifting every strand so that the tin cans didn't rattle, giving away our position.  Well, in that mad house of 50s going off and the mortar simulators blasting every few seconds, the enemy would have to be in the tin can to hear it rattle.  Scooted under them without much care of anything but getting out of that course as fast as I could.

[bulldog75]

Went through Basic in 93 and they were still doing it then. You had to watch for hot pig barrels laying beside the gunners. The Drill Instructors still told stories about some  dumb arse standing up on the range and getting turned into a bucket of crap. It keeps the kids scared crapless. There was barb wire woven overhead. It would have been pretty hard trying to stand up. We did have a dumb arse crawl into the barb wire along the edge and he had to be helped out of it after the range went cold.