Bane will take a 9mm, Hawkfish a .40

[2HOW]

Im tryin to give some props to the fly guy and yall are bashin. Just because you know your wrong with your little .380 and your weak .357 (kidding)  I just dont go for the hi cap argument for the 9 nor the shot placement argument. I have read too many real life recounts of the 9 not getting the job done.  Sure, if under extreme pressure you can shoot the BG in the face, God bless you.

[ericire12]

Im tryin to give some props to the fly guy and yall are bashin. Just because you know your wrong with your little .380 and your weak .357 (kidding)  I just dont go for the hi cap argument for the 9 nor the shot placement argument. I have read too many real life recounts of the 9 not getting the job done.  Sure, if under extreme pressure you can shoot the BG in the face, God bless you.

Very true..... if that was the end all be all, then .22 lr or .22 mag or .17 Mach 2 would be plenty.

[Dougdubya]

I have read too many real life recounts of the 9 not getting the job done.  Sure, if under extreme pressure you can shoot the BG in the face, God bless you.

All those stories seem to date back to the dark ages before police adopted good 9mm ammunition.  Remember, there was a space of a whole generation where ammo companies didn't even dare produce 9mm ammunition to original 1908 specifications because of all the pot metal souvenirs brought home by GI's who killed the Nazis who had them.

Puny velocity ball, peripheral hits, and only one out of 28 rounds hitting the target (the Miami gunfight) are poor reasons to base caliber choice upon.

I also remember an incident being related where a PCP crazed perpetrator, who took two twelve gauge slugs to bring down, this in addition to 33 Jacketed Soft Point rounds.

Jacketed Soft Points were ditched by the Illinois State Police almost immediately for 9mm hollowpoints loaded to proper velocity - 1300 or so fps.  As well, the NYPD 127 grain +P Gold Dot has an excellent track record.

There hasn't been news of a bad guy sucking up 10 or more rounds from one shooter.  The closest we have is a 150 pound cougar in Chicago, who took 18 shots from a half dozen officers, all firing in unison, and there's no telling how long that wave of gunfire lasted, except that no cops were observed to have been stuck in the kitty's teeth.

[tombogan03884]

All those stories seem to date back to the dark ages before police adopted good 9mm ammunition.  Remember, there was a space of a whole generation where ammo companies didn't even dare produce 9mm ammunition to original 1908 specifications because of all the pot metal souvenirs brought home by GI's who killed the Nazis who had them.

Puny velocity ball, peripheral hits, and only one out of 28 rounds hitting the target (the Miami gunfight) are poor reasons to base caliber choice upon.

I also remember an incident being related where a PCP crazed perpetrator, who took two twelve gauge slugs to bring down, this in addition to 33 Jacketed Soft Point rounds.

Jacketed Soft Points were ditched by the Illinois State Police almost immediately for 9mm hollowpoints loaded to proper velocity - 1300 or so fps.  As well, the NYPD 127 grain +P Gold Dot has an excellent track record.

There hasn't been news of a bad guy sucking up 10 or more rounds from one shooter.  The closest we have is a 150 pound cougar in Chicago, who took 18 shots from a half dozen officers, all firing in unison, and there's no telling how long that wave of gunfire lasted, except that no cops were observed to have been stuck in the kitty's teeth.

I have to agree about the 9mm getting a bad rap becuase of crap ammo, seems like no one thought about improving any pistol ammo till the late 80's early 90's. you had guys improving CALIBER, 44 mag, 41mag, 10 mm etc. but they don't seem to have given much attention to the projectile itself. You did not get much REAL improvement in rifle ammo till fairly recently as well, starting with the Barnes X - bullet.
As for the Air Force, As far as I know their smallest COMBAT fire arm (as opposed to security equipment, night sticks and AR's etc) is the 30mm Gatling on the A 10 , Is there any one here who thinks 30mm would NOT be enough for personal defense ?

[MikeO]

As for the Air Force, As far as I know their smallest COMBAT fire arm (as opposed to security equipment, night sticks and AR's etc) is the 30mm Gatling on the A 10 , Is there any one here who thinks 30mm would NOT be enough for personal defense ?

We have 20mm cannons in AC too, as well as .50/7.62/5.56 MGs/gats in choppers.

Was never issued a nightstick, had to make do w a big flashlight or collapsable baton. Got to use the much bigger "riot" stick on some anti-nuke nuts once; that was fun. 

Back in the day I worked joint town patrols w Army MPs. We had a loaded .38 and chem spray, they had an unloaded .45 and a wooden nightstick. I guess somebody thought it all balanced out...

Last year Congress directed the services get together for another shot at a joint pistol program. That was after they shot down the AFFH (Air Force Future Handgun) for the second time. I hear the USAF and USMC want a new 45, the Army is still trying to decide what the FHS (Future Handgun System) will look like in what caliber.

Last time (M1911A1 to M9) it only took 8 yrs to get it done (78 - 85). We've only been kicking it (M9 to SOF-CP, FHS, JCP, CP, AFH, AFFH) around for about 4 yrs now.  My fave of the contenders (have tried the FNP45, M&P45, G21/30SF, HK45/HK45c, P220 Combat, Px4) is the HK45/HK45C to replace the M9/M11. Both have threaded bbls options for the ninjoperators, and the 10 round mags work in the compact (my fave of the two). 

Have been packing an HK45C for about a week now, and it's wundebar! Not saying that cuzz another USAF vet is a honcho at HK now either. 

[Sponsor]

[Walter45Auto]

Well, in the strange event it was only between .40 S&W and 9MM, unless I was where .40 ammo was impossible to find, I'd choose the .40's Bigger bullet. But thankfully I ain't limited to only two choices and I can choose my .45 ACP, .357 Mag, and .45 Colt.

[NYPD13]

CAN WE JUST TAKE THE 40 S&W CASE, NECK IT DOWN AND PLUG IT UP WITH A 9MM HOLLOW POINT, AND THEN DECLARE MY 357 SIG THE WINNER?

[HAWKFISH]

umm.. you could but then it wouldn't be a 9mm or a .40 s&w...   

[dj454]

I would have to say the .40. I would prefer the 10mm but ammo is hard to come by so the 10mm's little brother the .40 is the next best thing.

[Michael Bane]

I like shooting the .357 Sig in the little bitty Glocks...it causes the fillings to fall out of my teeth...

Michael B