A Message To The Occupiers!

[billt]

They failed or are failing because their business model is price and they can't compete with Walmart on price. Circuit City is dead because it was a poorly run company that took back any merchandise no matter what and lost about 20% of their stock out the back door. Best Buy is better run from better locations and hence, beat them to death. They were killed by other big businesses, not by the little guy or the "occupier".

I disagree. What's killing them is what's killing mom and pop. Not enough business to go around. These big ticket stores can only thrive in a good economy. That is something we haven't had in a while. Best Buy is in trouble without Circuit City. 10 years ago they were both doing fine. Same with Target, K-Mart and Wal-Mart. They were expanding, not closing. I'll all but guarantee you the same thing is going to happen to Home Depot and Lowe's. There are almost a dozen of them within 15 minutes of my home. There is no way this economy will continue to generate enough business for all of them to stay open. Imagine their electric bill in the Summer, or their heating bills in the Winter? Not to mention people can barely pay their mortgages. Forget about remodeling. I've got a Home Depot right down the street. Everytime I go in there the place is empty.

We've had a Sportsmans Warehouse close up 10 minutes from here. They couldn't move enough merchandise to keep the doors open. When they opened it they were packed. I'm seeing a big drop off at Cabela's. Guns remain on the rack for weeks. Just a few years ago they wouldn't last a day. No matter how you look at it, this country is tapped out, pure and simple. These big box stores are going to continue to decline. They learned the same thing these home owners did. Too much too fast is never a good thing.

Throughout the 90's and into this past decade business over expanded, and people overspent. It has all come to a crashing halt. Even Blackberry is going broke. This is how it used to be. People worried about the necessities first, the frills later. They're going back to that because they are being economically forced to. People can no longer buy everything they see.

[jaybet]

Tom, I'm not suggesting Socialism and Bill, I'm not saying that the economy isn't hurting businesses as a whole. What I AM saying is that if big biz eats up little biz, we lose because little biz is a big part of our economy. I'm also saying that big biz is not and never will be threatened by small biz. The thread started out because someone suggested that you shop at local small business as much as you can and I believe that's a good thing. Is that going to hurt Walmart? Hells no, it's not going to hurt Walmart. People will still dress up in drag and put on their spandex and go to Walmart. You simply cannot say that large corporations will be hurt because people decide to spend a little money locally in small businesses and suggest that you could actually hurt the big ones by doing that. And if you DO shop locally you are fueling your local economy which is a good thing. The big boys still have what they have.

I took from the early comments here that somehow we were hurting big business by trying to shop local. No, they are hurting because of what you both have said- the economy sucks, they opened too many stores, etc., etc., or have fallen to competition among themselves. I've just been trying to make the point that the Morgans, Vanderbilts, Rockefellers and their ilk aside, this country we love was built by individuals and their small businesses. Admittedly the big guys have advanced things a lot, but they have also caused troubles, so the math on that could be debated separately. I LIKE capitalism. I am one myself, and I know that business is business, but I believe that if you can only shop at Walmart, buy gas from only Exxon Mobil,  or buy your gun stuff only from Larry Potterfield (just an example Larry, I love you guys!) - if those are your only options, we're screwed.
I don't think big business needs your help or sympathy.

[billt]

What I AM saying is that if big biz eats up little biz, we lose because little biz is a big part of our economy. I LIKE capitalism. I am one myself, and I know that business is business, but I believe that if you can only shop at Walmart, buy gas from only Exxon Mobil,  or buy your gun stuff only from Larry Potterfield (just an example Larry, I love you guys!) - if those are your only options, we're screwed.

As Tom said, it's just part of a cycle. Little mom and pop businesses have out lived their time. We as consumers want a big selection. We don't want to order what we want and have to wait for it. We like walking in, picking it out, and taking it home. Or else have it delivered and installed the same day. Small mom and pop operations can't provide that. Shooters demand places like Midway, CDNN, Cabela's, and Sportsmans Warehouse. Hundreds of guns and thousands of accessories. All under one roof, or the click of a mouse away.

Today you wouldn't think of going to the hardware store to look at guns. In the 50's it was a common occurrence. Times change, as do peoples demands. Business change to provide those demands. It's not sad if you think about it. We as consumers brought this on ourselves. Specialty stores are everywhere. They are also far more vulnerable to economic shifts. Who could last longer in an economic slump? A mom and pop store with a few items, where they live upstairs, or a place like Cabela's that has to sell $50K worth of inventory a day to break even? With big reward comes big risk. It's not all wine and roses for these big corporations. When they fall they make a lot of noise, and effect a lot of peoples lives.

[JC5123]

I think many of your fears are unfounded Jay.

What I mean is that there is a place for both large and small businesses in America, and there always will be. The big box stores have there place. When you need to buy volume, most of the time, they are your best bet. However they will never be able to compete with the little guys when you need good service, and specialty goods.

For example, I was climbing in Salt Lake over the weekend. I needed to get some replaceent equipment. So I ran over to the REI. Being big they have a little bit of everything, but that also tends to limit their selection in particular niche items. So not finding what I needed I walked around the corner to the "mom and pop" climbing shop and got exactly what I needed.

It is the same scenario no matter which box store you are talking about. The mom and pops will crush them everytime when it comes to knowing their customers, the trends of the area, and meeting those needs. The box stores can't do it, nor will they put forth the effort. They focus on sheer quantity for their profits, where as small shops will always be customer oriented.

That is why there will always be a place for both. Because it creates choice for the customer which is always a good thing. On the one hand you get a better price, on the other you get excellent customer service. It just depends which best suits your needs at the time.

[Timothy]

With the exception of guns and ammo, how much of what Cabelas, Bass Pro and other big retailers is made here?

10%, 20%?  I doubt very much it's that high...

I like to browse Cabelas and Bass Pro as much as the next guy but I've never bought a single gun from either!  Big doesn't mean better and most certainly, there are far more experienced gun folks than those behind the counter at the ones we have here!

[Sponsor]

[billt]

With the exception of guns and ammo, how much of what Cabelas, Bass Pro and other big retailers is made here? 10%, 20%?  I doubt very much it's that high...

True perhaps, but that's not their fault. If they stocked only American made sporting goods their store would be empty. And what little they would have no one would be able to afford.

[Timothy]

True perhaps, but that's not their fault. If they stocked only American made sporting goods their store would be empty. And what little they would have no one would be able to afford.

And therein lies the biggest problem!  You've accepted that as the norm rather than the trying to affect some change.  I realize we're in a global society but WE should be the leaders in manufacturing not the followers!

How would you like it if someone expected you to do machine work for 15 bucks an hour or less?  You probably wouldn't like it much at all!  Unless and until we demand more manufacturing here, I'm afraid we're doomed....

[tombogan03884]

J, I think you are missing part of my point, the reason a Mom and Pop place fails is because they are a dime a dozen, they all carry basically the same stock, and prices are around the same.
There is nothing to distinguish one from another.
In the early 1800's all the shipping on the Hudson river was controlled by the Keel boat companies, prices only varied by a few cents, travel times were the same etc., then along came Fulton, eventually his steamboats, ships, and trains forced the keel boats out of business, then Ericson came up with the screw propeller and killed off the paddle wheelers.
Innovation drives economic growth and we have not been innovators for years now.
We invented Computer Numeric Control at Stanford, but you walk into any US factory you may find some US or German produced machines, but the controllers will 90% of the time be either Fanuc, or Yasnac from Japan. Also, the vast majority of the machines will be Japanese, Chinese, or Korean
Other technologies are the same, we may invent it here, but it has become other countries that find the applications for the technologies .

[billt]

How would you like it if someone expected you to do machine work for 15 bucks an hour or less?  You probably wouldn't like it much at all!  Unless and until we demand more manufacturing here, I'm afraid we're doomed....

Believe it or not, there are areas of the country not far from here that only pay that, or in some cases less. I hear what you and Jay are saying, and as much as I would love to believe it, I can't. What Tom says is true. Time changes. We are great inventors. From pocket calculators to going to the Moon, we're the first. Then someone else picks up the production. We can't change that because we cannot directly compete.

In my trade everyone was worried about the Pacific Rim stealing all the machining jobs. The ones we lost to Singapore we ended up getting back. They were cheaper, but lacked the quality required. It was much the same with all of these companies that moved to Mexico under NAFTA. Many lost their asses and ended up going broke, or else moving back. It's the same with all of the Chi-Com crap at Harbor Freight. It's all getting better. As it does the price will increase. Remember Japan when we were kids? The running joke if you had a toy that said "Made In Japan" meant it was cheap crap. Just like Chi-Com crap is now.

Japan's quality is now every bit as good as ours.....And they're prices are the same or higher. People used to buy Datsun's in the late 60's and early 70's because they were cheap. No more. This is a never ending cycle. People won't work in China forever for nothing. That country is headed for a $h!t storm of epic proportions. They just need a few more guys like the one who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square. If they keep paying their workers what they have been, they'll have them. Lot's of them.

[tombogan03884]

To back what Bill posted, up here, what many companies do, ( T/C did this) is hire 2 or 3 machinists at $18 /hr they set up the machines for 20 or 30 button pushers who put parts in and take parts out for $10/hr.
Also, China, it doesn't make the news very often here but they are already having a "shit storm".
In the western part of the country dissatisfaction is being shown by farmers and others either going berserk in knife rampages, or by going into courts and city offices and blowing themselves up.