Who Or What Can We Declare War On ?

[tombogan03884]

How do they separate the men from the boys in Greece ?
With a pry bar.
What's the Greek Army anthem ?
I'll never leave my buddies behind.
The really funny part is that those 2 jokes are about 3,000 years old.
They date to the days of the Spartans and their "Sacred bands".
The earlier 2 quotes come from the Trojan war, one from each side, both about the horse.

[fightingquaker13]

How do they separate the men from the boys in Greece ?
With a pry bar.
What's the Greek Army anthem ?
I'll never leave my buddies behind.
The really funny part is that those 2 jokes are about 3,000 years old.
They date to the days of the Spartans and their "Sacred bands".
The earlier 2 quotes come from the Trojan war, one from each side, both about the horse.

The funnier part is that those who didn't want gays in the military never considered them. The Greeks were flamers and kicked everyone's ass until the Romans came along. And its not like they were straight as a ruler either.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

The funnier part is that those who didn't want gays in the military never considered them. The Greeks were flamers and kicked everyone's ass until the Romans came along. And its not like they were straight as a ruler either.
FQ13

There was actually sound thinking behind the Spartans "Sacred Bands", the idea being that one wouldn't leave his buddies behind, in the lurch. That thinking held the line at Marathon.
You're sort of wrong about the Roman Legions though, while that sort of behavior was a matter of personal taste for the upper classes, it was far less common among the lower classes that comprised the bulk of the Legions and it was never ritualized as with the Spartans..

[fightingquaker13]

Their was actually sound thinking behind the Spartans "Sacred Bands", the idea being that one wouldn't leave his buddies behind, in the lurch. That thinking held the line at Marathon.
You're sort of wrong about the Roman Legions though, while that sort of behavior was a matter of personal taste for the upper classes, it was far less common among the lower classes that comprised the bulk of the Legions and it was never ritualized as with the Spartans..

The lower classes weren't allowed to join the legions until Marius took over. It was all the upper class until then (something we ought to emulate).
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

The lower classes weren't allowed to join the legions until Marius took over. It was all the upper class until then (something we ought to emulate).
FQ13

I disagree, the reforms that Marius instituted took a provincial defense force and turned it into the first true "military machine".
With the landed citizens they defended Rome with varying success.
When Marius trained the lower classes, and applied his theories of uniformity, and mobility he created a force that not only conquered as Alexander did, but held and unified half the known world.
The early Army comprised of the land owners could never have supplied enough manpower.
Even when opened to Gauls and other foreigners it was shortage of man power and speed of communications that actually lead to the fall of the Empire .

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

I disagree, the reforms that Marius instituted took a provincial defense force and turned it into the first true "military machine".
With the landed citizens they defended Rome with varying success.
When Marius trained the lower classes, and applied his theories of uniformity, and mobility he created a force that not only conquered as Alexander did, but held and unified half the known world.
The early Army comprised of the land owners could never have supplied enough manpower.
Even when opened to Gauls and other foreigners it was shortage of man power and speed of communications that actually lead to the fall of the Empire .

I'm not sure where we disagree. Marius was the basis for Heinlien in Starship Troopers (and please, the book not the POS movie). If you want to be a citizen, you serve. We could use a bit more of that now. Hell, I don't like Daniel Inouye at all, but he left a limb on the battlefield which is more than can be said for Cheney. Ditto with BO and McCain (my bad, I must've been drunk. ).How many members of Congress or their kids served? Screw 'em. Still, Marius' reforms brought the Empire's (because that was where it was going after his second dictatorship) a huge fighting force. We really should do the same. No conscription, just a choice. Serve, in either the miltary or civilian serice, or don't, but you can't vote.
FQ13
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

It was all the upper class until then (something we ought to emulate).
FQ13

That's where I disagreed with you, by restricting membership to the land owners they limited them selves to a part time Army that was to small for anything but defense of the immediate area of Rome leaving their critical sources of supply at the mercy of others.
By opening enlistment to any one who wanted to earn citizenship (ala Heinlein) they built a base of full time professional officers and NCO's that allowed for faster expansion in the event of war or disaster, ( Lake  Trassamine , Carrhea, Tuetoburgerwald  Spell check is no help on these    ) and supplied "peacetime" armies to protect Roman interests in places such as Egypt.

[fightingquaker13]

That wasn't disagreement, just me being unclear. It pisses me off that plumber's kid's serve, and for the most part doctor's kids don't. It should be both. Its why I think Heinlien had a good idea.
FQ13

[Jrlobo]

Wow, what a thread. Explains why as an altar boy in Germany, the Colonel's son was chosen for high mass at Christmas and I did all the other masses! And I'm a Roman, too! But I should never get into an argument with Tom about religion and history. That man is too well read for me. So. I'll just be content to sin six days a week and come clean on the seventh and delude myself a Christian while clinging to my bible and guns (I am a Pennsylvanian, too). But I always thought the Bible and the Constitution were written by men and therefore not perfect, but neither to be taken with a grain of wit! Hmmm, wonder where that phrase came from.

[tombogan03884]

That wasn't disagreement, just me being unclear. It pisses me off that plumber's kid's serve, and for the most part doctor's kids don't. It should be both. Its why I think Heinlien had a good idea.
FQ13

That's one way of looking at , on the other hand, when large industrialized nations are trying to kill you would you rather be among "sons of privilege", or poor country boys like Alvin York and Audie Murphy ?