A question of worldview..

[fatbaldguy]

Guys, alot of you are talking about translations, timelines and authorship when you don't know what you're talking about. You're repeating what somebody who spoke to your ego and it sounded good or intelligent.

Some things to think about.  The average literacy rate in the 1st Century Roman Empire was less than 2%.  The average life-span of someone NOT in the aristocracy, was 40 years.  The earliest known writings of the 'New Testament' that exist,  are from the early 2nd Century.   In Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. Granted Greek was the language of the educated at that time.  See the <2% remark.

So, who wrote the 'Gospels'?  Certainly not the attributed authors. 

Just so you know, I spent two years in intensive study of the birth of Christianity, and the Apostle Paul.  I was an Honor student at Seminary.  I know more than most, but not nearly enough to say for certain the the Bible is/is not 'the word of God'.  Inspired or not!

I lean more towards not for man is filled with vainglory and peccadillo's.

[santahog]

Some things to think about.  The average literacy rate in the 1st Century Roman Empire was less than 2%.  The average life-span of someone NOT in the aristocracy, was 40 years.  The earliest known writings of the 'New Testament' that exist,  are from the early 2nd Century.   In Greek, not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin. Granted Greek was the language of the educated at that time.  See the <2% remark.

So, who wrote the 'Gospels'?  Certainly not the attributed authors. 

Just so you know, I spent two years in intensive study of the birth of Christianity, and the Apostle Paul.  I was an Honor student at Seminary.  I know more than most, but not nearly enough to say for certain the the Bible is/is not 'the word of God'.  Inspired or not!

I lean more towards not for man is filled with vainglory and peccadillo's.

The last line there begs a comment and a question..
The first half sounds like something we're all entitled to, opinions being what they are and all.
The second half makes me wonder what yo do with your guilt, being no less filled than the next man..
I don't want an answer or whatever. It just kinda begs the observation..

[fatbaldguy]

The last line there begs a comment and a question.. makes me wonder what yo do with your guilt, being no less filled than the next man..
I don't want an answer or whatever. It just kinda begs the observation..

My transgressions against the God of whomsoever are no less, and likely a great deal more than most.  They are however mine, and I own them, and must deal with them in a manner that befits MY understanding of God.  That is more than enough to do in that regard.  It leaves little time for questioning the ethics and morals that anyone else may profess, be it Shinto, Buddhism, Taoism, Pharisaic Jewry, Christianity, and many others I cannot think to name right now.

Tolerance, civility, and outright kindness should mark the measure of a person.  I will tolerate your view, so long as you do not infringe upon mine.  I will speak civilly to all, and hold doors open for those in a bigger rush than I am, or, just because I feel like it.

And, the first bit of what I wrote is part of the historical record.  It is not written in a sentence or paragraph, nor even a chapter.  It was written on the pages of history since Herodotus.

I'll leave this now, I am more comfortable being the red-necked son of an illiterate side-hill farmer.

[fightingquaker13]

Nice post. There is no such animal as a self interpreting text. And the thing is, orthodox Christianity, until the Baptists and Evangelicals came along, admitted as much. The Episcopal church states it plainly, but other mainline denominations admit it quietly. It is a combination of scripture, reason and tradition that forms our theology. And reason comes in large part from general revelation, or natural law, given to all men regardless of faith. To claim the that scripture is inerrant and literally true is what the Muslims and Mormons do. It is not, and never has been the  teaching of Christianity until the 17th and 18th century.

[santahog]

Nice post. There is no such animal as a self interpreting text. And the thing is, orthodox Christianity, until the Baptists and Evangelicals came along, admitted as much. The Episcopal church states it plainly, but other mainline denominations admit it quietly. It is a combination of scripture, reason and tradition that forms our theology. And reason comes in large part from general revelation, or natural law, given to all men regardless of faith. To claim the that scripture is inerrant and literally true is what the Muslims and Mormons do. It is not, and never has been the  teaching of Christianity until the 17th and 18th century.

When Christ said "I am" ("The Way, The Truth, The Light", "Before Abraham was", etc) do you understand what it was that he was universally understood by his audience to be saying?
How do you get "To claim the that scripture is inerrant and literally true is what the Muslims and Mormons do. It is not, and never has been the  teaching of Christianity until the 17th and 18th century." to fit into that hat? He claimed to be Very and The One True God.. Saying "I Am, God" is a pretty clear claim to inerrancy, don't you think? How is it then that the Baptists and Evangelicals came along and made claims that had never been laid before their times? They're pointing out that they agree with Him, that He IS God, just like He claims..
How is that complicated or convoluted?
Again, I'm good here.. These statements do beg the questions though..
It seems to me that you're accusing Christians (believers in Christ and the Word) of circular reasoning, making up circular reasoning, attributing it to Christians and the Bible, and then pointing to your argument/fabrication as truth to demonstrate the validity of your accusation...
(That's what the Demo(n)crats do every time the truth of their actions begins to come close to being uncovered, I've observed, pretty regularly..)

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

Not at all. I believe the Bible is made up of the accounts of inspired and authorized witnesses. The stories (and songs, and poems, and parables) reveal the truth. But they aren't written by God, much less translated by him. They are historical accounts. And just like every other historical account were written by real people living in a particular time and addressing a particular audience doing their best to get the truth across.
That doesn't make the Bible any less true, anymore than a first hand account of the D-Day invasion isn't true. It does effect how you read it.
The Muslims and Mormons, OTOH believe that Smith and Muhhamed were basically ventriloquist dummies writing down the exact words God gave them and that every comma is sacred. That's not the traditional Christian view.

[PegLeg45]

I have, over the last few years, decided to stay out of religious debate unless it is face to face.



However, to this, I humbly submit to those who believe there is understanding in this.....
To those who do not, move along:

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

2 Timothy 3

Godlessness in the Last Days

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God

10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom[a] you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

[santahog]

Peg, thank you.. 

[Solus]

Just a note...

Folks other than Christians are persecuted too..

Some that come to mind quickly are:

Those tried in the Salem Witch Trials.

Those subjected to the  Spanish Inquisition

Those who believed the world was not flat.

And I am sure there are others I've not remembered.
 

[tombogan03884]

To make the point I've been trying to get across.
What does any of the above have to do with management principles, or good Govt ?
There is not a single thing that has been mentioned that would lower the debt or close the borders.
I don't care what or if you believe, it has no place in politics.