Oklahoma botched execution?

[PegLeg45]

We just want to kill them gently?  ::)Had to look that one up-WOW!  That's some rough stuff there!

Yes indeed....killing them softly.......    

[tombogan03884]

Didn't they try that with Noriega ?
As I recall it was Van Halen at about 1000 decibels. 

[Solus]

I've had some thoughts about capital punishment and how we  handle it..so might as well put them out here for review.

The only problem I have with capital punishment is that it cannot be undone...and with the findings lately of a high number of wrongful convictions, those concerns are stronger.  Nothing to do with being considerate of the guilty....just concern of offing the innocent.  And while I have difficulty imagining this happening, I'm not so naive to think it does not....that those in charge will frame someone for a capital offense and ram rod the guilty verdict through.

Another issue is how we deal with the execution.  I tend to believe in being personally responsible.  As a juror, before I could recommend the death penalty...if jurors do that...I would need to be so convinced the criminal should die that I could enter their cell and slit their throat while they were restrained.

It tends to bother me that a jury can say we just listened to the evidence and thought it proved them guilty...and the judge can say  the jury found them guilty, I just sentenced them according to the law, and the executioner can say those guys upstairs send them down here and I just pull the level.

I don't imagine this solution would every be found workable, but I would like to see something along the lines of if a jury recommends the death sentence, then one of them, chosen by lot, does the deed...hands on face to face, not pushing a button or pulling a trigger.

Those involved are willing to take personal responsibility for the killing or they should not vote to have it happen.

[fatbaldguy]

Those involved are willing to take personal responsibility for the killing or they should not vote to have it happen.

Rope and gallows.  Both re-usable.  I'll pull the lever to drop the trap, and stare them in the eye as I do it!

[TAB]

No punishment is reversible,  so one that spent 10 years in jail will be scared for life.

[Sponsor]

[Rastus]

I go with having to have 2 witnesses for capital punishment Solus, beyond that I don't care so much.  The guy they executed this past week fought the guards tooth and toenail and had to be tasered.  It is reported he never showed remorse while incarcerated; instead he was defiant and fought to the very end.  I don't think it's right to get a high from vengeance or some other feeling of euphoria from an execution and I don't think it is right to make the criminal suffer needlessly. 

That said, if an execution doesn't go quite as well as we'd like then that is something to learn from for the next one.  This was a bad guy convicted with the requisite 2 witnesses.  This was a mad dog that had to be put down.

If the execution didn't go so well for him let the Southern Poverty Law Center or ACLU buy the next one.  Otherwise, "Move along people, nothing to see here."


About the victim, from Tulsa Channel 6 http://www.newson6.com/story/25392928/remembering-stephanie-neiman-oklahoma-murder-victims-tragic-story :

<snip>
Lockett murdered Neiman on June 3, 1999. Stephanie, 19, had just graduated from Perry High School, where she played the saxophone in the band, two weeks earlier.

Neiman and a female friend had stopped to visit another friend named Bobby Bornt, 23, who was at his Perry home with his 9-month-old son.

Clayton Lockett, 23, his cousin, Alfonzo Lockett, 17 and Shawn Mathis, 26, were already there. While Bornt's baby son slept in another room, they had tied up and were beating Bornt because he owed money to Clayton Lockett.

When Neiman's friend went inside the home they hit her with a shotgun then forced her to call Neiman into the home.

They repeatedly raped Neiman's 18-year-old friend, tied up the two women then used Neiman's truck to take the adults and the baby to a rural part of Kay County. When Neiman refused to give Clayton Lockett the keys to her truck or provide him the alarm code, he ordered Stephanie to kneel while Mathis dug a grave.         

Lockett shot her and the gun jammed. While Neiman lay there screaming, the attackers cleared the jam and Lockett shot her a second time. Even though she was still breathing, he ordered the other two attackers to drag her into the grave and bury her.

They threatened to kill Bobby Bornt and Neiman's friend if they went to police, but they did anyway. Perry police arrested the three attackers just three days later.

Alfonzo Lockett and Shawn Mathis are each serving life terms for their parts in the crime.
<snip>

[tombogan03884]

Solus overlooks one fact in his post.
The convictions that have been found to have been wrong generally dated to before DNA testing and were disproved by the new methods .
On the other hand DNA evidence is now common enough that it has been used to convict litter bugs.
That, coupled with the huge amount of CCTV usage greatly lessens the chance of getting the wrong guy.

[Solus]

Solus overlooks one fact in his post.
The convictions that have been found to have been wrong generally dated to before DNA testing and were disproved by the new methods .
On the other hand DNA evidence is now common enough that it has been used to convict litter bugs.
That, coupled with the huge amount of CCTV usage greatly lessens the chance of getting the wrong guy.

This is true...it is likely that mistaken convictions might be reduced...

And, yes, TAB,  I have always thought that if we presume the power to lock someone away for life..or a prolonged time, it is not a big step to capital  punishment.  Capital punishment just has no change of any mitigation...  and I'm not saying that is a reason to stop it..just that it is a concern. 

When I was in the 9th grade I had a friend who used to say..  "Remember you can be convicted on the testimony of two lying witnesses."  It is not all that difficult to find two people who will lie.

Another realization I have come to is that our, or any, legal system comes down to a group that has agreed upon certain unacceptable acts and will use deadly force to impose our rules on violators.  I am not saying this is bad...it is just what it is.  What makes any system good or bad is the content of the rules.

[Big Frank]

This is true...it is likely that mistaken convictions might be reduced...

And, yes, TAB,  I have always thought that if we presume the power to lock someone away for life..or a prolonged time, it is not a big step to capital  punishment.  Capital punishment just has no change of any mitigation...  and I'm not saying that is a reason to stop it..just that it is a concern. 

When I was in the 9th grade I had a friend who used to say..  "Remember you can be convicted on the testimony of two lying witnesses."  It is not all that difficult to find two people who will lie.

Another realization I have come to is that our, or any, legal system comes down to a group that has agreed upon certain unacceptable acts and will use deadly force to impose our rules on violators.  I am not saying this is bad...it is just what it is.  What makes any system good or bad is the content of the rules.

I've been in this situation myself. My neighbor, a convicted felon who knew the system, lied about me to the police. Then his drunken step-father who wasn't even home at the time of the alleged incident said he witnessed the whole thing. The next thing I knew I was charged with 2 felonies. I couldn't prove my innocence so I plead no contest to a misdemeanor in order to get the felony charges dropped. I was given jail time then probation among my other punishments.

I also had to forfeit my Dan Wesson revolver that I supposedly used during this fictitious incident. That's when I found out you shouldn't show all your neighbors your gun collection or tell them what you have. And I couldn't get a CCW for 8 years because of the misdemeanor I plead to. So the police took the word of a child abuser who was also fired from a nursing home for abusing elderly patients over my word. Even though I had a squeaky clean record without so much as a parking violation. And the prosecutor doesn't care about right or wrong. He only wants more convictions to make himself look better.

[Rastus]

The Bible says it takes two witnesses to convict for this sort of thing and that lying is on their heads.  Now, that being said, dufus prosecutors and cops have no business not doing their job to help protect the wrongly accused.  It is a lot easier just to write it down and go on one's business then to really investigate and confirm liars stories. 

There are always going to be people involved and just because they are in the legal or police system it does not mean they are competent or that they really care for justice.