Why Not SERPA?

[Rob Pincus]

Jimbob_tx, you said:

I still don't see a ringing endorsement FOR the Serpa.  I see defense of it in this thread, but what problem is it designed to solve, outside of gun retention?

Stop there.... gun retention is exactly what the SERPA addresses and is important.... Thinking that gun retention isn't important is living in movie world where gunfights are clean, planned things that happen in a vacuum.

The rest of your post is missing a huge point that is also important for you (and anyone) to understand: The SERPA does support trigger finger discipline and proper placement. 

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Be careful about over thinking the problem or starting from an assumption that there is a problem that doesn't really exist... that is the reason I brought up Kabooms! in the first place......  .
I don't want to pick on you, but:

I've said before that I don't have any personal experience with the system

.... that's kinda relevant here..... you are working on assumptions that are really flawed.


 Anecdotal "evidence" and "erring on the side of caution" is what leads to no one being able to shoot from the holster on public ranges.... or shoot more than one shot per second.... or have CCW permits......  or own guns at all...... etc, etc.....


5 years ago, this was the discussion over whether or not it was "OKAY" to let people take defensive shooting courses with IWB holsters.  Seriously, there were schools that didn't allow it because the instructors thought is wasn't safe.... or were afraid of the liability.... or couldn't figure out how to teach their use safely because it wasn't what THEY used.  The same is true on some ranges where people aren't allowed to use shoulder holster, crossdraw, fanny packs or ANY other method of carry. If the instructor can't figure out how to help a student become better prepared to use their method of carry, they shouldn't indite the method out of hand. FWIW, if an instructor has the integrity to say " I don't like it, so you can't use it!"  OR "I don't know how you can use it safely, so you can't use it" I have nothing but RESPECT.  At that point it is up to the student to make a decision about the instructor's opinion.....

 If I have  student show up who is carrying a 1911 and insists that holster-less pocket carry, chamber loaded with the safety off is his preferred method..... well, in that case, I think I can make a 98+% safe statement that "no reasonable instructor" would allow it. Either way, I am okay with the student making a decision about my opinion and choosing where to spend his money and time. The SERPA issue is a far cry from that type of situation.


-RJP

[Ksail101]

I am going to say this and I hope that it doesnt piss off the people who are big names and sponsored on here. I respect so many of the ones that I see on here I hope I dont turn into "that guy".

But alot of big name trainers, i.e. Larry Vickers, really push the products they are sponsored by. Now I am not the end all be all on saying the Serpa is perfectly safe, but I have used it alot on with my 1911 and have not had an issue.

I bet if you ask Todd Jarrett about the Serpa he would tell you all the great things about it and not any of the safety issues.

There are alot of products out there and I am sure everyone has their hang up somewhere. Just like the safariland hood latch on 6004 becomes inoperable when doing low crawls in mud.

So I think alot of this has to do with the person who owns the range and the people that have the power to change rules do to their personal afflictions about a product.

[Ksail101]

I should also add to what I wrote about not having a problem with my Serpa. I use it with a 1911 and I was taught to snap off the safety while bringing the gun up, so when I draw I have something that prevents me from firing right when the gun comes out of the holster.

So maybe the problem is with firearms without a manual thumb safety. Or if you flick the safety off while the you are still drawing out of the holster in one motion.

Guys that train many people, at many different levels of ability, are the ones that make the call most of the time so who am I to say one product is ok. But I know what works for me.

Update: I just went back and read what Mr. Pincus wrote in his first post on page 2 and I feel like I may have said a couple of the same things he did so I am sorry to cross pollinate, I should have read before I opened my mouth. (I pretty much take what ever he says as gold.)

[Mojave Desert]

Mr. Pincus,

Serpa holsters OK in this class?

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=595

[Rob Pincus]

***this is a tangent***

Mojave,

 That is a good question......  .

I'll find out. But before I even ask, I will tell you that, since I teach on a lot of different people's ranges, my safety speech almost always includes the following (if the range owner, local instructor, host of course, whatever is present..):

"...... so those are my safety rules. [turning to host] Is there anything else I need to add to meet your requirements here at the range  or anything you're concerned about?"

I do that out of respect for using someone else's place (and sometimes name/business to bring in students) and as a bit of CYA that everyone was on the same page when we started, in case something goes terribly wrong later!

I would obviously do so the same thing on this case. So.... while the SERPA is fine with me, I might get overruled by local range rules.

OTOH, we might over-ride local range rules, as we do when the local range has one of those 50 item long lists of "Range Rules" posted that includes things like "If the gun fails to fire, keep it pointed in a safe direction and notify a range officer."  .

Stand by.

-RJP

[Sponsor]

[Pathfinder]

Update: I just went back and read what Mr. Pincus wrote in his first post on page 2 and I feel like I may have said a couple of the same things he did so I am sorry to cross pollinate, I should have read before I opened my mouth.

Ksail, you aren't the first, and you won't be the last - don't sweat it.

Update: (I pretty much take what ever he says as gold.)

In the interview portion of the podcast a few back, the one with Rob, Michael Janich, Tim Cremins (sp?) and MB talking about the upcoming TBD show, someone said they told their instructors that he didn't ever want to hear anyone say "Do this because so-and-so said to do it that way." OTOH, experience and training will out, and since I have so little of either, I too listen to MB and his guests and gain their perspective and the benefits of their experience and training.

[Rastus]

This is definitely one of the better discussions and threads.  Advice, dissent, all coming together to ponder.  Nothing wasted, knowledge gained.

Now to train.....but it's raining at the range today...if it keeps up I'll have to consider putting a little lead fertilizer in the wife's flowerbed.

[jimbob_texas]

Anecdotal "evidence" and "erring on the side of caution" is what leads to no one being able to shoot from the holster on public ranges.... or shoot more than one shot per second.... or have CCW permits......  or own guns at all...... etc, etc.....

Most of  your points are well taken, except for this notable extrapolation.  Public ranges are public ranges, and anyone with a pulse can show up and shoot there.  Those rules are in place for good reason.  I've been muzzle-****ed enough times at public ranges to testify to why that's the case, and as to why I don't shoot in that environment anymore.

I think what's missing from this discourse is that I'm talking strictly in the context of teaching new shooters the basics of shooting, in a classroom/range environment.  Hollywood notwithstanding, my context for teaching is primarily in the competition arena, not self-defense/military/police applications (in spite of the cross-over skills).  I've seen my share of retention devices, yes, even in the competition context (shoot what you carry is the prevailing logic there).  Obviously, for us gamer-types, any sort of retention device just slows us down.  I use a Ghost holster for USPSA, if that's any indication.  I use the Comp-Tac locking paddle holsters for IDPA and carry.   I carry an IWB Glock 26 in a Comp-Tac rig, too.  To each his/her own.

I still see only apologetics regarding why one system is better than another, and good marketing often trumps common sense.  I personally think it's a bad idea to train ANY trigger-finger movement until the gun is unholstered and the target is sighted.  Snapping that index finger into action as the first step of a draw from a holster is more likely to lead to an ND than simply to draw, find the sight picture, THEN move the finger to the trigger.

My mileage obviously varies.

Respectfully,
jr

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks for the more in depth exploration of the topic, jr.... In the context that you are dealing with (non-defensive, administrative settings), I think we agree that the SERPA isn't the first choice by any stretch.
I do think that you would benefit from hands-on time with the SERPA, however, just to understand it better. You'll see that you really shouldn't be "pushing" the button at all (as you have to push the thumb button on the Ghost, for example (at least the only Ghost I've used), it simply moves under the natural pressure of extending your finger along the holster so that it is along the frame when you draw.

***

Pathfinder,

Thanks for pointing that out... I was in a hurry during my last post about the Suarez Course, but I almost referenced the concept that you are talking about. It was me who was saying that on the podcast and I say it often in class. I don't want anyone reading this thread, for example, and showing up at some course with a SERPA and say "I use it because Rob Pincus said it was okay!".... the reasons for WHY I think the SERPA is okay may make sense to someone... in which case they should use those reasons to explain why they are choosing it.  The idea was more thoroughly explored in this Blog Article: http://breachbangclear.blogspot.com/2008/09/guest-blog-respectful-irreverence.html..

***

I got the answer from Mr. Suarez, the important part is quoted below, but the bottom line is that YES, you can use a SERPA in my CFS course that he is hosting.

(from an email earlier today):
[because so many people are using SERPA] ...I won't be so agressive about it, but I will require each Serpa user to
sign a special release, and videotaped, acknowledging the holster is
dangerous to themselves and acknowledging all liability...ALL liability
arising from them using it.

My note in response:

"Okay.... I'l let them know.

I don't agree with the statement "acknowledging the holster is dangerous to themselves" anymore than the gun that they will be carrying in it is also "dangerous to themselves"... but your range, your rules."


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-RJP

[Big Frank]

Is the button in the trigger guard or above it? In the pictures I see it looks like it's above the trigger guard. If it is above the trigger, and your trigger finger is above the trigger housing before you draw, and ends up on the side of the frame above the trigger after you draw, then how can it cause a ND? Your finger wouldn't be on the trigger at any time or even inside the trigger guard. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a problem or not.