Consider this #8: secure concealed carry

[John McCreery]

If you do have a retention holster and practice with it, do  you practice under the stress of someone bearing down on you?  Real pressure from a dedicated attacker?  It made me switch to a more open top holster just from wrestling around with friends testing this type of stuff.  I had a hard time getting the thumb break undone on the holster as I was fending off the person.  Unfortunatley we all let our guard down sometimes and people get inside of our personal space. 

[Robin]

If you do have a retention holster and practice with it, do  you practice under the stress of someone bearing down on you?  Real pressure from a dedicated attacker?

Of course I can't speak for others, but I do practice weapon retention techniques. But it isn't something most CCW holders have to worry about. Here's an example of why I think retention holsters are a good idea for CCW holders:

A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.

[bbbean]

Of course I can't speak for others, but I do practice weapon retention techniques. But it isn't something most CCW holders have to worry about. Here's an example of why I think retention holsters are a good idea for CCW holders:

A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.

I think its primarily an argument for practicing your CCW for a few days with an unloaded gun before you start carrying a loaded gun. A reasonably careful and responsible adult should be able to drop trou without losing control of their gun, regardless of the holster!

[Robin]

A reasonably careful and responsible adult should be able to drop trou without losing control of their gun, regardless of the holster!

Shit happens.

[John McCreery]

I really like these discussions!  Good stuff.   I was really more concerned with people getting the gun into play if the retention holster were too complicated.

Just curious why you think CCW holders wouldn't need to worry about weapon retention.  If someone is within arms reach, shouldn't we be worried about that?

Of course I can't speak for others, but I do practice weapon retention techniques. But it isn't something most CCW holders have to worry about. Here's an example of why I think retention holsters are a good idea for CCW holders:

A Utah man bagged a public toilet at Centerville’s Carl’s Jr. restaurant Tuesday when his gun fell out of its holster and misfired as he was pulling up his pants. Police said a Salt Lake City man received minor injuries to his arm from flying shards of porcelain when the .40-caliber bullet from his gun shattered the toilet as it hit the tile floor, The Salt Lake Tribune reported.

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[Fatman]

I really like these discussions!  Good stuff.   I was really more concerned with people getting the gun into play if the retention holster were too complicated.

Just curious why you think CCW holders wouldn't need to worry about weapon retention.  If someone is within arms reach, shouldn't we be worried about that?

Level one is more for keeping the  sidearm from falling out, not keeping someone from grabbing it. Simply grabbing it from behind and using your own thumb or a 'chop' motion from the front will release the snap.  A good friction fit will also prevent the firearm from falling out.  Formed kydex does this well. Leather, check often and adjust tension.

Keeping someone from getting the weapon from an OWB holster is a matter of grabbing behind your holster below the belt line and pulling it out and up. Do it right and you'll break the miscreants thumb or a finger or two.

[Robin]

I was really more concerned with people getting the gun into play if the retention holster were too complicated.

This is my opinion, but I think the three active retention devices I mentioned aren't too complicated, and feel natural with practice. You want complicated, try a traditional Level III duty holster with two snaps and a rocking motion to release the pistol. But even that is easily mastered with practice.

Just curious why you think CCW holders wouldn't need to worry about weapon retention.  If someone is within arms reach, shouldn't we be worried about that?

Again my opinion, but the point of concealed carry is the "concealed" part--no one else should know you are carrying. It's still beneficial against gun grabs but I think secure retention against accidents is a bigger benefit. Good kydex would prevent the toilet incident but doesn't help if the pistol grip hooks on something as you lower your body--like when you slouch in a chair for example.

[Michael Bane]

I don't use retention holsters because I have literally hundreds of thousands of draws in competition using tension holsters, and I'm used to the feel. I've never had any trouble dropping trou -- you do have to pay attention -- but I've been carrying a gun since the dawn of time.

In truth, leather is more comfortable than kydex...Lou Alessi's holsters are as near to perfect IWBs as I've ever used, but Lou has enough orders to last him two forevers. At SHOT, I got an AWB from a new holstermaker and student of Lou's, John Ralston. It is a beautiful holster for my PARA Carry 9, and I'm going to wring it out. You guys will hear my results here first!

Given my druthers, I'll take the easy way out and use a Comp-Tac paddle, which conceals well under a jacket or a vest. Back when I had "leisure time," I would periodically go out and shoot an IDPA match with my IWB.

On practicing retention techniques, I'm for it with a caveat...training time is always limited, and I would rather see you guys put the time into the basics first. You'll probably see some retention stuff in THE BEST DEFENSE Season 2...or maybe 3. In the meantime, focus on a homily from trainer Dane Burns: "Distance is good; more distance is better."

Michael B

[Michael Janich]

I did a lot of research on weapon retention when I was teaching for Spyderco. Many cops carry a folding knife on their weak side with the belief that, if someone grabs their gun, they simply clamp down to keep the gun in the holster, draw the folding knife, pop it open, and carve the scumbag off their gun. Although the theory sounds good, most of them never really practiced drawing and opening a folder with their left hand. Even fewer thought about how those complex motor skills are affected when your engaged in a gross-motor-skill tug of war with the other hand. And virtually none of them had tried it while being punched in the face (which I did rather mercifully with light hits and a 16 ounce boxing glove).

The bottom line is that weapon retention is a combative skill. Much of what it taught technique-wise is developed from a shooter's mindset, not a fighter's mindset.

The technique that I finally settled on works with or without a knife, against left, right, or both hands grabbing, and--most importantly--as both a defensive and a pre-emptive reaction. Look for a complete description of it in my article on The Best Defense blog.

Stay safe,

Mike

[John McCreery]

Mr. Janich,

Really enjoy your stuff and looking forward to possibly training with some of your guys in Columbus, OH

That's what I was getting at earlier when I mentioned some retention holster being overly complicated.  It's easy to pop a thumb strap when you are standing still.  Much different when someone is punching you or sticking you with something sharp.