Using a fast draw, do you really need to know how?

[luvmy45]

I am serious when I ask this question,

In reading the NRA rags on citizens that used their weapons in self defense, and in reading about situations that CCW holders use their weapons, I can't remember reading of an encounter where an armed citizen that was a CCW holder, had to do a fast draw and shoot.

To those instructors and defense trainers, It seems that all the training advertises that you will have the ability to fast draw your gun and shoot in 1 to 2 seconds. When do would that be needed?

If we analyzed say 100 shooting incidents where a CCW holds had to use his/her weapon, how many times was the fast draw needed?

Thanks,

Brian

[tombogan03884]

Not what I expected when I read the title, which really stinks because I had several Smartdonkey answers all ready 
But seems like a valid question, if they came at you from an alley or doorway from close range and wanted to harm YOU, you would surely need to draw quick.So it would probably be a good skill for some one with a protection order, but it would seem that in a robbery type situation it would be less important, as the BG would be giving you the "Give me your stuff or I'm gonna" routine, and his first assumption when you start to reach will be that you are complying, after all, HE"S got a knife, gun, club, whatever, and assumes HE is the aggressive person in the equation. In this case fast draw may add to the shock value but since he will PROBABLY  (not always !) run away  , it's not as important. Of course if you need a gun you need it in your hand, the quicker you can do this the better, but missing fast never won a fight.

[Solus]

If you don't find many, it could be because not enough folks are proficient at a fast draw and it was recorded as a murder rather than a self defense shooting

[luvmy45]

If you don't find many, it could be because not enough folks are proficient at a fast draw and it was recorded as a murder rather than a self defense shooting

So if it does happen... shouldn't there be more stories about it? Because of all the CCW stories about using a gun to defend yourself, this situation is the one that would attract the media coverage the most. Wouldn't it?

So the lack of coverage of such incidents leads me to believe that all the practice we do honing our skills at fast drawing and shooting... are pretty much worthless in the world of self defense.

Is that a correct assumption? If not, why not? If so, expand on why we practice it so much and it is taught so much at training schools?

Brian

[ratcatcher55]

My $0.02.

See if you can MOVE, draw and fire and hit the A zone on an IPSC target or 0 points down on an IDPA target from concealment in 1.5 seconds. Fast but no hit in the proper area is a failure.  Hits are more important than speed. You must move off the line of attack, a couple of steps mean a lot better chance of survival. If you can do that everytime, add a second and third shot. Can you do it in both directions? Can you do it at angles?

The big thing is not to be surprised in an attack. If your aware of what might happen you can disengage or at best get distance.
Distance = time to react.  Distance gives you the advantage if you can make the shot and the bad guy can't.

I would think that most folks who end up winning these fights had an idea that trouble was coming their way and were preparing for the fight. I doubt fast draw ever really wins these types of encounters.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

My $0.02.

See if you can MOVE, draw and fire and hit the A zone on an IPSC target or 0 points down on an IDPA target from concealment in 1.5 seconds. Fast but no hit in the proper area is a failure.  Hits are more important than speed. You must move off the line of attack, a couple of steps mean a lot better chance of survival. If you can do that everytime, add a second and third shot. Can you do it in both directions? Can you do it at angles?

The big thing is not to be surprised in an attack. If your aware of what might happen you can disengage or at best get distance.
Distance = time to react.  Distance gives you the advantage if you can make the shot and the bad guy can't.

I would think that most folks who end up winning these fights had an idea that trouble was coming their way and were preparing for the fight. I doubt fast draw ever really wins these types of encounters.

According to the court transcripts that someone linked to an earlier thread that is exactly what happened at the OK corral, Wyatt Earp had his pistol in his coat pocket, how fast is that.  But a faster reaction time has to be better than a slower one, even if you are trying to run from a situation.

[ratcatcher55]

"According to the court transcripts that someone linked to an earlier thread that is exactly what happened at the OK corral, Wyatt Earp had his pistol in his coat pocket, how fast is that.  But a faster reaction time has to be better than a slower one, even if you are trying to run from a situation"

I agree with that.

[jimbob_texas]

1.5 seconds, while moving, from concealment is FAST.  The fastest I can draw reliably (A-Zone hit, 7 yards) is right at 1.0-1.2 seconds, and that's from a Ghost holster (USPSA rig), no concealment.  We drill regularly on draws, focusing on getting good hits.  But like I said, that's under the best possible circumstances.

If you can draw and shoot in 1-2 seconds in any circumstance, that's fast.  Most people are surprised at how long it takes to draw and fire accurately when you're using a shot timer, even when you know that it's coming.  Add surprise, reaction time, disorientation, adrenaline, etc., and you're going to have to rely on ingrained instinct.  1-2 seconds?  Hmmm...

[Solus]

So if it does happen... shouldn't there be more stories about it? Because of all the CCW stories about using a gun to defend yourself, this situation is the one that would attract the media coverage the most. Wouldn't it?

So the lack of coverage of such incidents leads me to believe that all the practice we do honing our skills at fast drawing and shooting... are pretty much worthless in the world of self defense.

Is that a correct assumption? If not, why not? If so, expand on why we practice it so much and it is taught so much at training schools?

Bri

Without knowing what percentage of CCW holders are thus trained, you cannot assume that lack of news reports about that training being used means that it is not necessary.

It is more likely that the percentage of trainees is low and the odds of one of them being attacked is small.  The would mean that those who are attacked when the training would help have not had the training.....and the result is a murder rather than a self defense report.

As another example.  If you looked for news stories about how a CCW holder protected themselves a week after CCW became legal in an area, you might find no such stories.  But that would not indicate getting a CCW is not worth the time, jus that the small number of CCW holders have not been attacked yet.

[Michael Bane]

This is a subject close to my heart because it is one I encountered in the Real World. First let me say as an instructor I had been drifting away from the necessity of a fast draw in civilian defensive situations for the same reasons the original poster noted...a analysis of armed citizen shootings did not seem to support the time spent in perfecting a smooth, fast draw from concealment.

A couple of years back — and I've written about this before on this forum, so I won't go into vast detail — I walked into my local small town supermarket and a miscreant in biker drag who told me to give him all my money. As he stood up from the floor, his right hand went to the left side of his partially zipped leather jacket. My right hand went to the left side of my partially unzipped leather jacket, and the short story is I won. Before his hand was fully in his jacket he got to hear the safety of my Colt Mustang .380 coming off and look at the little mousegun barrel point at the roof of his mouth. He slooooooowly locked his hands behind his head and asked me a very pertinent question: "What do I have to do to keep on living?"

This taught me a valuable lesson, as articulated by Tom Bogan...the stats don't tell us everything. I went to the local police, but I filed no report. That incident is nowhere in any stat database.

I now believe (and teach, on those rare times when I get to teach) that a smooth draw — remember, smooth is fast — is a fundamental survival skill. It's sort of like how a ballet dancer or a martial artist has an absolute understanding of his or her position in space and what the next move is...we need to be sensitive to the gun and the next move, even if we carry it day in and day out. That means devoted part of our precious time to understanding and mastering the draw.

Michael B