Episode #9: Dealing with the Immediate Aftermath of a Use of Lethal Force

[D-Man]

I was bummed I was traveling back from Oregon (getting my CHL from there) and missed the show.  Can't wait to see the re-air, or when the video player is finally back on a Wednesday as well.  One thing that the people at USCCA (http://uscca.us) have for their members is a card that you can give to LEO during the aftermath.  Basically says, "I acted in self-defense, this is an emotional time for me, will be happy to give a statement after I talk to my attorney, and I am willing to press charges against this other person".  Highly recommend getting a copy of that card so that you can get yourself pulled together.  Again, I am bummed I missed this episode and can't wait to see it!

[Rob Pincus]

D-man,

I just did a training DVD that will be released later this year with Marty Hayes of the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network. He advised against that type of card for some very good reasons. First, you need to talk to the responding police in order to establish what happened and to reduce the chances of getting arrested. Marty goes on to say (and I agree) that you should stick to the basics (some of which on on the typical cards) and then STOP talking and ask for your attorney if you are arrested (read your miranda rights, not cuffed for detention). Furthermore, the card indicates that you may or may not have been sincere in your need to use self-defense.. ie- "you just handed them a card", which could carryover in civil trial, if any. Again, there are a lot of variables, but I don't recommend the card.

*****

Para,

I certainly didn't think you were talking about kicking a knife out of a standing persons hand... but the concept is the same as kicking the weapon away from the person on the ground. Not only are you tampering with evidence which can establish opportunity and ability (in regard to the lethal threat), but, at least in the scenario we showed, you would've increased your danger by getting closer to the bad-guy.... and as you noted they could still be a threat. In regard to this:

...and said, "Oh God, they made me do it! I'm sorry! I'm dying! I'm bleeding! Help me!" Or something similar. Definitely would make the average Joe uncomfortable if there was a delayed response. But now I'm just letting my mind wander...

I agree 100%, which is exactly why it was important for us to remind people not to do it. When the right thing to do goes against human nature or instinct, it has to be trained early & often to be performed under stress.

-RJP

[Michael Janich]

A lot of variables can be factored into a situation that hasn't happened yet, like I said before, the televised scenario was pretty cut and dried.

"Cut and dried" is about all anyone can show in the 19 minutes of content we actually have available for each show. If we spend an entire show trying to cover all the possible mutations of an incident like that, we'd still run out of time and viewers would be disappointed that we didn't show a variety of topics.

The bottom line with all the scenarios--and the format--is to show a "bad" response and then show a "good" response to compare the two and illustrate specific learning points. I am confident that we've been effective in doing that. There will never be a "perfect" response, but if we stimulate good discussion that gets people thinking, we can collectively work in that direction.

Stay safe,

Mike

[D-Man]

D-man,

I just did a training DVD that will be released later this year with Marty Hayes of the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network. He advised against that type of card for some very good reasons. First, you need to talk to the responding police in order to establish what happened and to reduce the chances of getting arrested. Marty goes on to say (and I agree) that you should stick to the basics (some of which on on the typical cards) and then STOP talking and ask for your attorney if you are arrested (read your miranda rights, not cuffed for detention). Furthermore, the card indicates that you may or may not have been sincere in your need to use self-defense.. ie- "you just handed them a card", which could carryover in civil trial, if any. Again, there are a lot of variables, but I don't recommend the card.

-RJP

Very valid point, and a lot of people on the forum over there have said the same thing.  The best I was told was to memorize the following, "I was in fear for my life and acted in self-defense."  Beyond that, shut up as much as possible.  Having been in a shooting, I know the adrenaline was flowing like crazy and it was tough to organize thoughts afterwards.  The tunnel vision while it was happening was amazing.  Teaching yourself to scan is so important!  Sorry digressing there. 

Thank you for that important input.

[TheBowhunter]

RJP and Mike, I like your comments about the card and information given defining what to say in the aftermath of force on force.
 I know it will help me.

[Sponsor]

[metamurph]

at least in the scenario we showed, you would've increased your danger by getting closer to the bad-guy.... and as you noted they could still be a threat. In regard to this:
I agree 100%, which is exactly why it was important for us to remind people not to do it. When the right thing to do goes against human nature or instinct, it has to be trained early & often to be performed under stress.

I think that was something very effective for me right from the beginning, attacker is a "normal looking female" which probably isn't our normal frame of mind for the BG.  My question sequence wise was (and this could be memory fade or a proximity issue) it seemed like the victim pulled his pistol but then didn't go to "command" mode but went right to shoot mode.  You were focused more on the aftermath but was there also a better sequence (part of what you show by coming out the with light and scanning in the first place) that would have been a de-escalation? It was well shot from the perspective of proximity, steps, etc.

I also really liked the segment on using the light the right way, there were things I hadn't really thought about. 

[Rob Pincus]

Meta,

When I watched the final edit, it did feel like the shot was somewhat quick..... while we were focused on the aftermath as the learning point, i do remember stressing the need to tell the threat to stop and the point that the shot came AFTER she repeatedly articulated a threat. The fact is that in those close and fast circumstances, each person is going to have to decide for themselves when it is appropriate to use lethal force. I don't think the final edit shows an inappropriate shot.... at that distance, you are certainly justified in responding with a shot without any verbal. Justified use of lethal force comes down to perception and fear. It is tough to second guess that with any legitimacy based on a video clip!

-RJP

PS- If she was a "normal looking female", you should re-evaluate where you hang out!  .

[Pegasus3c]

Excellent episode, in many ways more important than any other episode of the show. I watched with my significant other, and was very glad that we did. She is preparing to begin carrying and has gone to a class, but in this realm the learning never stops. Being former military I honestly had not thought about the assailant's weapon, and probably would have executed EPW procedures and kicked it away. I would not have picked it up, but kicking it I simply had not thought of as a bad thing. Now I have thought allot more about that aspect of threat response.

It is most difficult to deal with the aftermath of any such situation, and in the time you had for the show I think you covered the most important high points, and in a good manner. Thank you for publically working in this field gentlemen. It may not be PC, but it is needed unfortunately in the world we live in.

[S391]

What flashlight was Michael using in his segment at the end of the show?

[Michael Janich]

What flashlight was Michael using in his segment at the end of the show?

It was a BLACKHAWK Gladius Maximis. Here's a link:

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Night-Ops-Gladius-Maximis-Illumination-Tool,994,40.htm

Stay safe,

Mike