CC Laws in your state

[fightingquaker13]

I don't suppose you have a problem with poll taxes or literacy tests for voting either right. Poor reasoning like you are exhibiting are how we got to the point where we may have to overthrow an administration to KEEP our rights.
And compared to Alaska and a couple of New England states Texas isn't all that gun friendly.

Tom ,
Okay, I see you're excerised about this. I don't want to get into a fight, because based upon your posts I've read, I think we're pretty much on the same page. BUT, the thing is is this, no right is absolute. Lets take free speech. The Court has consistently ruled that the government may not regulate as to content (obscenity being a theoretical though not practical exception), yet it has also held that speech may be regulated as to time, place and manner. This means no loudspeaker trucks, at a reasonable hour and not on  someone's private property etc..
The idea here being that while we may speak and assemble and say what we will, we can't do it on your font lawn at 2:00 in morning. I would submit that the same is true of "shall issue" ccw permits.

This is where your comparison to poll taxes and literacy tests goes (for want of a better word) south . These tests were designed to prohibit a particular class of persons from exercising their rights. They weren't appllied fairly and equitably,  nor did they serve a "compelling state interest". These are the key words. A literacy test to vote cannot be justified. A road test to drive your car, or carry (not own) a gun can be, so long as it is applied fairly across the board. The bottom line is that while the state may not constitutionally keep you from owning a gun, it can say that in order to carry it where others may be injured or killed if you screw up, you have to demonstrate competance. This is a "compelling state interest". I am not in way, shape, or form arguing for gun control or anything like it. Own what you want. I am however , stating that when it comes to public carry, concealed or open, that it is hard to argue that it is unreasonable for the government to set rational terms and conditions for doing so. As long as they respect the fact that we have a right to do  so and do not need to demonstrate cauuse, but merely competancy and sufficent age to do so, I do not see how our rights are threatened.
Respectfully
fightingquaker13

[ericire12]

There is no skill test for any other CIVIL RIGHT either, nor should there be !

There should be for voting!

Exhibit A: BHO

[ericire12]

fightingquaker13

His comments about poll taxes and literary tests are 100% applicable to this discussion.

The far left gun grabbers know that they can not blatantly take our guns away..... Obama has said so himself..... Therefore they are trying to disenfranchise Americans from gun ownership and concealed carry rights through taxation and fees on things like ammunition, permits, the new proposed bill that would mandate insurance coverage, etc etc.......


all they are doing with us is cooking frogs.

[tombogan03884]

"Lets take free speech. The Court has consistently ruled that the government may not regulate as to content (obscenity being a theoretical though not practical exception), yet it has also held that speech may be regulated as to time, place and manner. This means no loudspeaker trucks, at a reasonable hour and not on  someone's private property etc.."
Those are not a limitation on free speech, they are about trespassing and disturbing the peace which has absolutely NOTHING to do with content. In fact the 1st Amendment has been used (erroneously as there is NO such thing as "freedom of EXPRESSION) to defend everything from flag burning to child porn (granted that has had mixed results, but wins in SOME instances)

" The idea here being that while we may speak and assemble and say what we will, we can't do it on your font lawn at 2:00 in morning."

You most certainly CAN . As long as I give you permission to be there and the Neighbors don't complain about the volume.

"A road test to drive your car, or carry (not own) a gun can be, so long as it is applied fairly across the board. "

Driving a car is not a Constitutionally guaranteed civil liberty , keeping and BEARING arms is.
Another problem with your examples refers back to MB's podcast #99, PRECEDENT, Ca. allows CCW with a permit, but in Alameda County you have to pay $3000 to get the permit, therefore I was deprived of my State verified civil liberty on economic grounds. Your suggestion would simply create another loop hole for abuse, just like every other precedent in legal history. Remember, the kiss of death for theories," It SEEMED like a good idea at the time".

Amendment IX: Existence of other rights for the people.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment XIV: Privileges or immunities, due process, elections and debt.

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

[saltydogbk]

 Tom is 100% right on this. No amount of infringement is acceptable. Once started on that path, it is hard to correct.  Keep at it Tom.  +100

[Sponsor]

[fightingquaker13]

I think I may be unclear on one point in my post. I do like the ccw tests in Texas. I AM NOT however, advocating that states such as Florida go back and apply them retroctively. As someone who studies government for a living I know full well what size can of worms (or other stuff) that would open. Let sleeping dogs lie is a classic for a reason. However I do think for states without shall issue laws, TX. is a model. Here's why. The range where I shoot has no rangemaster. Non-ideal I know, but they're the only game in town. I spend, as you might imagine, a fair bit of time there. Watching people with ccws ,(At least I assume they have them, as they carry concealed) is often deppressing. A lot of these folks are just scary. Not knowing how to safely clear a jam, poor safety practices, nothing but rapid fire, ridiculously poor marksmanship, as in emptying a revolver at 7 yds. and none in the target poor etc..
From time to time I try to help out, sometimes the help is accepted, oddly enough more often by women (Who'd a thought knowing how to shoot was as good as a cute puppy?). Moreoften, however it is not, as being a guy means we already know everything about guns. The point is that too often I find myself a little concerned about safey pracices  on the range. I do not want to be in the same parking lot if one these guys gets mugged and has to "put his bugger hook on the bang switch" (sorry Tom that's just too good not use).
fightingquaker13

[tombogan03884]

  Personal responsibility can not be Legislated. Pretty much every one who has nearly killed you because they were on the cell phone while driving attended Drivers Ed classes where they were told to concentrate on driving. Police officers are supposed to be trained , but in that famous case in NY they fired 40 some odd rounds in a tenement hallway (figure a range of well under 10 FEET ) and while they killed the unarmed target, they only hit him 6 times, where did the rest of the bullets go ? Your idea is a waste of time as it would not accomplish anything.
All states should be "Shall issue" states if we can not get rid of the permits entirely like Alaska and Vt.(which has one of the lowest crime rates in the country).

[Green Mountain Gringo]

Tom,

Cross the border, move here to Vermont.  The snow should be gone by June they tell me.

[tombogan03884]

Tom,

Cross the border, move here to Vermont.  The snow should be gone by June they tell me.

Sales tax, and no manufacturing jobs. You have State income tax as well don't you ?

[Green Mountain Gringo]

You're running rings around me logically.