.....against all enemies, foreign and domestic.....

[Teresa Heilevang]

Yep... that's very true..... you're right tom.......... Its a fine thin line on how far we can go even IF we suspect, know or think we know.
 BUT............ to think that those who are Mexican Mafia and MS-13 and those gangs like them,  have any shred of fairness or soul when it comes to their agenda.. They don't. Evil clear through.
 
So I have a hard time with the part about "waiting until they are caught".. To even get into that group you have to rape and kill and extort and do more than most who are setting in jail..and a hell of a lot more than any normal person could even imagine doing.  So in my opinion ( and this is just mine) ... Just because they are IN the organizations and openly taunt and flaunt is proof enough for me that they have no place in a normal society. . They don't need to be suppressed.. they need to be "gone". 

( Am I off course here? Did I miss the whole jist of the posts? Sometimes I start on something and get off base) 

[THE CORONER]

I don't hink he's saying that. I think the point was to resond to some earler posts in "homeland terroist camps" thread that had lot of folsk declaring all muslims the enemy and esentially writing them out of 1A protection. I think Coroner is pointing out, correctly that we need to be selective about who we feel threatend by and understand there's a lot Americans that we need to worry about, not just foriegn muslims. After all OK city was two white supremacist rednecks in a Ryder truck, and pre-911, it was our deadliest act of terror. Likewise the DC sniper was just a pissed off black supremacist. I could be wrong but this was my take on what was written.
fightingquaker13

Thank you!  You hit the nail on the head! It is what it is, terrorism here at home.

[THE CORONER]

Well fightingquaker13 .. I was in the middle of writing and stopped to answer an e-mail ..got myself something to drink..and came back in and you had posted kinda what I was writing. So I just deleted what I was clumsily trying to say in less than 50,000 words.. 
That is pretty much how I interpreted and read  what Coroner wrote...

Maybe I'm the one that don't get it. And I might be off base also...But I agree that American soil has a lot of enemies right here that we need to be on top and aware of...plus those who are not of American ancestry. 

Thank you, you got it too!

[THE CORONER]

That's what I've been SAYING. If you catch them breaking the law, fine kill them or lock them up . But If they are not CAUGHT breaking the law then any excuse used to suppress them is just as valid against the rest of us.

But that's not what you said at all!  You said:

Coroner, If you advocate destroying groups of people like the Branch Davidians, KKK, Neo Nazis,Jews, Salvation are or any one else, just because you don't agree with them you do not belong here. You should go to some sh!thole like Serbia. Because YOU are part of the problem. If you actually believe that crap you do not, and never will "get it".
Lesson number only The Bill of Rights applies to ALL citizens be they gentle geniuses or malevolent a$$holes.
Deal with it.

I was advocating the destruction of groups of people......and "just because you don't agree with them you do not belong here."  And...."You should go to some sh!thole like Serbia.  Because YOU are part of the problem."
You didn't say anything like this to me earlier....

That's what I've been SAYING. If you catch them breaking the law, fine kill them or lock them up

[THE CORONER]

Coroner, If you advocate destroying groups of people like the Branch Davidians, KKK, Neo Nazis,Jews, Salvation are or any one else, just because you don't agree with them you do not belong here. You should go to some sh!thole like Serbia. Because YOU are part of the problem. If you actually believe that crap you do not, and never will "get it".
Lesson number only The Bill of Rights applies to ALL citizens be they gentle geniuses or malevolent a$$holes.
Deal with it.

First, lets get one thing straight!  I didn't say anything about destroying anyone.  Read it again.  I said, I can't believe we've allowed it to go on.  And as far as agreeing or disagreeing with someone, or group isn't my point either.  The topic was about Terrorism here in our country.  And there is no crap about it Tom.  It's as real as the warning label on a pack of cigarettes.  It's not about them being right or wrong, it's about them being period.  

Does the Bill of Rights apply to the Jihad Muslims as well Tom?  If they're born here it does.  Read it again.  The part about how there's no difference between them and the hate groups already here.  Here's what i wrote:
  

If we've, and I mean WE, have allowed these hate groups {who I believe to be terrorists just as the Jihadists} to exist in our own backyards, year after year, decade after decade; then why shouldn't WE have any expectations to allow the Jihadists as well?  Remember the Oklahoma City Bombing in 95'?  Sure you do.  It wasn't Jihad then, was it?

If you get a handle on that, then you would know that the OK. City Bombing was the misguided act of a William Pierce follower.  Check into it, then you'll see I'm not a complete idiot.  Read it for what it says.  If it makes you angry fine.  But you shouldn't be angry at me.  This post topic was written as an opinion, with facts, and even questions about Terrorism in our own country.  Similar to topics perhaps you and others have posted on here.

 But whether I agreed or disagreed with your postings, I didn't tell you that you didn't belong here, or that you should go to some
sh!thole like Serbia because you are part of the problem?  Your attacking me Tom.  And your comments are way off topic.  I'm not advocating anything?  Nor did I mention destroying anyone?  Remember the Bill of Rights you threw up in my face?....I have as you do Tom, the freedom of speech.  

The whole point of my topic was to point out that while we despise terrorism, we have as a matter of fact, citizens in our country already that have committed acts of terrorism right here at home against our own people.  So why shouldn't Muslim Jihadists be allowed to have training camps here as well?

But I didn't call anyone names, (except Hitler, I called a coward; and neo-nazi idiots), or blame any one person for "allowing this to happen" except our government.  And if there's any blame to be had, it certainly lies there.  I certainly didn't say anything about advocating or destroying the Branch Davidians, or anyone else?  I don't know where you got that?  But your putting words in my mouth, I didn't write Tom?

You know, it's great to agree to disagree on topics, but making statements in argument to something not said by someone is "libel" to cause you legal problems someday Tom.  Deal with that!    

[Sponsor]

[THE CORONER]

Yep... that's very true..... you're right tom.......... Its a fine thin line on how far we can go even IF we suspect, know or think we know.
 BUT............ to think that those who are Mexican Mafia and MS-13 and those gangs like them,  have any shred of fairness or soul when it comes to their agenda.. They don't. Evil clear through.
 
So I have a hard time with the part about "waiting until they are caught".. To even get into that group you have to rape and kill and extort and do more than most who are setting in jail..and a hell of a lot more than any normal person could even imagine doing.  So in my opinion ( and this is just mine) ... Just because they are IN the organizations and openly taunt and flaunt is proof enough for me that they have no place in a normal society. . They don't need to be suppressed.. they need to be "gone". 

( Am I off course here? Did I miss the whole jist of the posts? Sometimes I start on something and get off base) 

Thank you, I agree.  Life's too short for all the hatred, and acts of terrorism.  What a sad place we live, when all we care about is the pain of others to pleasure ourselves.

[THE CORONER]

Yep... that's very true..... you're right tom.......... Its a fine thin line on how far we can go even IF we suspect, know or think we know.
 BUT............ to think that those who are Mexican Mafia and MS-13 and those gangs like them,  have any shred of fairness or soul when it comes to their agenda.. They don't. Evil clear through.
 
So I have a hard time with the part about "waiting until they are caught".. To even get into that group you have to rape and kill and extort and do more than most who are setting in jail..and a hell of a lot more than any normal person could even imagine doing.  So in my opinion ( and this is just mine) ... Just because they are IN the organizations and openly taunt and flaunt is proof enough for me that they have no place in a normal society. . They don't need to be suppressed.. they need to be "gone". 

( Am I off course here? Did I miss the whole jist of the posts? Sometimes I start on something and get off base) 

Since you mentioned the mexican mafia and ms-13.  I watched gangland on the History, or Discovery Channel?  They are bad news for sure.  They scare me more than any of the hate groups, or gangs.  Why, because I can't speak the language.  What I mean is....if they were discussing an attack on anyone; I wouldn't know what the hell they're talking about to save my own life!  I  can't make sense of that language....at all!

The one thing that concerns me the most about all these groups is their actions have a direct implications on our 2nd Amendment rights concerning the issue of an Automatic Weapon Ban.  Some if not most of these groups got em, and train with them already.  It's just like I read somewhere else....If the government bans weapons, only the police and criminals will have them.  Truth

[tombogan03884]

Coroner, I may have mistaken the meaning of your posts, I took it as verging on ideological cleansing similar to what happened in Bosnia. Those who advocate that sort of thing DO NOT belong here. They belong somewhere like Darfur or Rwanda with the rest of their ilk.
You asked "Does the Bill of Rights apply to the Jihad Muslims as well Tom? " If you TRULY believe in the Constitution then YES it does. There ARE however things we CAN use against them,
1)
 Make Local, State and federal law enforcement enforce immigration laws
2)
 Conspiracy laws, I'll admit I'm not real clear on the technicalities of this but it must be of use against organized groups like Hamas, MS 13, KKK etc.
3)
 RICO, while I have often derided the war on drugs and the questionable Constitutionality of the forfeiture laws, the Racketeer Influenced/ Corrupt Organization law (originally passed for use against the Mafia) has definite applications in this situation. Basically it says that if members of a group commit a crime in keeping with the philosophy of the group, then ALL members are guilty of the crime. That would mean that every member of the groups connected to this Ghalani  would be guilty of  (among other things) the murder of Daniel Pearl. Groups in America connected to Hezbollah are equally guilty of the rocket attacks on Israel.
4)
  If these groups are practicing with explosives, and full auto weaponry, those laws should be applied.

These were posted in the training camp thread:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php/topic,5678.0.html
The problem is that if there are ways Law enforcement can do anything about it WITH OUT being labeled as discriminating against muslims , they would also have to shut down places like Blackwater and Gunsite.
Got to catch these bas$%rds actually committing crimes. Then take down all the camps that belong to the group with RICO and conspiracy charges.

Catching them with illegal explosives would be legitimate grounds for law enforcement to take them down. Otherwise it would either require Ruby Ridge/Waco type  Constitutional violations, or it would have to be "unofficial". Which could set a VERY bad precedent. It's similar to the problem America faced with the German American Bund prior to WWII.

I think that pretty much covers it. If I missed anything I can only blame it on listening to the podcast at the same time.

[THE CORONER]

Coroner, I may have mistaken the meaning of your posts, I took it as verging on ideological cleansing similar to what happened in Bosnia. Those who advocate that sort of thing DO NOT belong here. They belong somewhere like Darfur or Rwanda with the rest of their ilk.
You asked "Does the Bill of Rights apply to the Jihad Muslims as well Tom? " If you TRULY believe in the Constitution then YES it does. There ARE however things we CAN use against them,
1)
 Make Local, State and federal law enforcement enforce immigration laws
2)
 Conspiracy laws, I'll admit I'm not real clear on the technicalities of this but it must be of use against organized groups like Hamas, MS 13, KKK etc.
3)
 RICO, while I have often derided the war on drugs and the questionable Constitutionality of the forfeiture laws, the Racketeer Influenced/ Corrupt Organization law (originally passed for use against the Mafia) has definite applications in this situation. Basically it says that if members of a group commit a crime in keeping with the philosophy of the group, then ALL members are guilty of the crime. That would mean that every member of the groups connected to this Ghalani  would be guilty of  (among other things) the murder of Daniel Pearl. Groups in America connected to Hezbollah are equally guilty of the rocket attacks on Israel.
4)
  If these groups are practicing with explosives, and full auto weaponry, those laws should be applied.

These were posted in the training camp thread:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php/topic,5678.0.html
The problem is that if there are ways Law enforcement can do anything about it WITH OUT being labeled as discriminating against muslims , they would also have to shut down places like Blackwater and Gunsite.
Got to catch these bas$%rds actually committing crimes. Then take down all the camps that belong to the group with RICO and conspiracy charges.

Catching them with illegal explosives would be legitimate grounds for law enforcement to take them down. Otherwise it would either require Ruby Ridge/Waco type  Constitutional violations, or it would have to be "unofficial". Which could set a VERY bad precedent. It's similar to the problem America faced with the German American Bund prior to WWII.

I think that pretty much covers it. If I missed anything I can only blame it on listening to the podcast at the same time.

THANK YOU FOR READING IT AGAIN.
But as we discuss cleaning up all the terrorist muslims, let's not forget about cleaning up the garbage we already have in our own back yards. Agreed?  While our rights do indeed need to be preserved; the anti this, that, and the other, infringe upon these very rights, whilest they use them to spread hate, fear, and terror to our citizens in anyway they can be heard. 

Our rights, setforth in the Constitution are not to be infringed upon.  There cannot be intolerance in the belief that these group, clubs, gangs, etc...would not kill innocent citizens to achieve their agenda objectives.  If a hate group for example uses a Constitution right like free speech, only to infringe on the Constitutional right against all enemies foreign and domestic; then where is the presidence in the very ink used to pen it? 
What I mean is this....
If they use a right to free speech to spread hatred, fear, and anarchy to the masses, why then aren't they infringing on our right to abolish them as an enemy foreign or domestic?  If anyone can tell me how, I'm here to be educated?

Clearly most, but not all the hate organizations in the U.S. have origins to another country.  But because of our rights, freedoms, technology, and various means of communications; we are being poisoned by them, and our rights exploited.  Worse yet, they have the ability and firepower to kill innocents.  How can we allow this to go on?  These aren't the typical gun enthusiasts who get together with their buddies to go shoot their automatic weapons in the backwoods.  They've got an agenda!  A reason.  A purpose.  And I feel as I'm sure others do, that my rights are being infringed upon by them being allowed to exist at all.  Hence the quote, "against all enemies, foriegn and domestic".  Thanks for writing back Tom.  As always, your comments are appreciated.  We will have misunderstandings.  But it is a decent man who seeks the truth, rather than a cause. 

I apologize for my writing ability concerning my post topic.  Maybe I could have explained myself clearer, without the sarcasm.  But I am thankful that you read it over again, and seen what my meaning was within it.

[tt11758]

THANK YOU FOR READING IT AGAIN.
But as we discuss cleaning up all the terrorist muslims, let's not forget about cleaning up the garbage we already have in our own back yards. Agreed?  While our rights do indeed need to be preserved; the anti this, that, and the other, infringe upon these very rights, whilest they use them to spread hate, fear, and terror to our citizens in anyway they can be heard. 

Our rights, setforth in the Constitution are not to be infringed upon.  There cannot be intolerance in the belief that these group, clubs, gangs, etc...would not kill innocent citizens to achieve their agenda objectives.  If a hate group for example uses a Constitution right like free speech, only to infringe on the Constitutional right against all enemies foreign and domestic; then where is the presidence in the very ink used to pen it? 
What I mean is this....
If they use a right to free speech to spread hatred, fear, and anarchy to the masses, why then aren't they infringing on our right to abolish them as an enemy foreign or domestic?  If anyone can tell me how, I'm here to be educated?

Clearly most, but not all the hate organizations in the U.S. have origins to another country.  But because of our rights, freedoms, technology, and various means of communications; we are being poisoned by them, and our rights exploited.  Worse yet, they have the ability and firepower to kill innocents.  How can we allow this to go on?  These aren't the typical gun enthusiasts who get together with their buddies to go shoot their automatic weapons in the backwoods.  They've got an agenda!  A reason.  A purpose.  And I feel as I'm sure others do, that my rights are being infringed upon by them being allowed to exist at all.  Hence the quote, "against all enemies, foriegn and domestic".  Thanks for writing back Tom.  As always, your comments are appreciated.  We will have misunderstandings.  But it is a decent man who seeks the truth, rather than a cause. 

I apologize for my writing ability concerning my post topic.  Maybe I could have explained myself clearer, without the sarcasm.  But I am thankful that you read it over again, and seen what my meaning was within it.

While I don't personally disagree with your premise, therein lies the two-edged sword of our Constitution.  Afterall, defending free speech is easy if you agree with the speaker.  What takes real courage is to defend the right of someone to say something at the top of his lungs that you would spend the rest of your life contradicting at the top of your lungs.  We can't just allow the excercise of Constitutional rights by those with whom we agree.

And I believe that Tom is right........to allow the government to circumvent the rights of those we oppose opens the door for the government  to do the same thing to us.

Bottom line is this:  There is no easy answer.  We need to be vigilant and be prepared.  We need to defend outselves, our loved ones, and our Constitution.  Because when (not if) the SHTF that's all we have and that's all we can do.