Rifle vs Carbine Tactics

[Rob Pincus]

Let's revisit Tom's advice:

In any course it's best to work with what you are most likely to be using.

It is a great piece of advice. PCC's are used all the time in "Carbine" Courses.... This year, I've had a couple 9mm ARs, several MP5s and even an MP5 style .22 go through "carbine" sessions. Add those to the rifle calibers in AR, AUG, AK and other configurations and you can see why the Carbine courses have more deviation in performance and technique from student to student than any other.

The curriculum of the "carbine" course is designed get students to learn the most efficient way to run their defensive long gun of choice. Different guns require different techniques. The TACTICS are all the same. The Drills are all the same. This is because the Context of Use for those firearms is all going to be the same..... so, as Tom said,  sign up for a course and bring what ya got!

-RJP

[Hazcat]

I would think a carbine style .22 would be good to use for the course especially with the cost / availability of ammo right now.

AR with a 22 upper or one of the many AR or AK type dedicated .22s or if you're like me and want to use a lever, why not a lever .22. (are there any .22 levers that load from a side gate?)

[bryand71]

My son has a Henry lever in .22 and no loading gate  . Which I think it should have. The only way to do a fast reload is with those loading tubes I have seen for .22 tube magazines.

[JdePietro]

Thank you one and all.

I don't think any instructor would turn my rifle away, however I have found them to be ill equipt with teaching methods for the longer rifle lengths.

Most of the issue I come accross is stance and forearm grip. A lot of what is being taught deviates from military rifle doctrine. Squaring off to the target and placing the rifle more center line to the chest while maintaining a comfortable grip on a rifle is difficult if you have been taught to place your arm as far out on the handguard as possible and blade off.

Sling sellection is another weak point. Many people will tout the perfect Carbine sling but will give little to no thought about a good rifle sling and I find that there is a big difference.

Many here are right in saying that you must learn the limitations of both and the difference that are needed when using either.
Of the few courses I have taken I find that the rifle is simply forgotten and the techniques for carbines are forced into workng for both.

Just my opinion I guess. 

[Rob Pincus]

JdeP,

The Cutting Edge right now is still going to have you square off (for a lot of good reasons), but the current trend is to place your offhand as far out as possible on the carbine... again for a lot of good reasons, managing recoil and controlling lateral motion being the most important. Vertical grip and mag well approaches have proven to be less efficient. I recently started integrating the new style after being exposed to it be the MAgpul guys over the winter. I had seen competition (3 guns types) shooters doing it for awhile, but hadn't really understood the advantages until it was broken down for me.

Keep in mind that just because you were taught to use your rifle one way doesn't mean that it was the best way. The trick is to get your instructors to explain "WHY" they are recommending what they are recommending and try to come to the highest level of understanding, not just to look for instructors who agree with your opinions. If you're not willing to be educated, you are better off going to the range and simply practicing what you already think is best.


-RJP

[Sponsor]

[MAUSERMAN]

I guess if I didnt care about people around me ie my nieghbors, I would use my dpms 308 for sweeping and clearing. Hold on I forget some of use dont live in the city we live in a shack in the woods. I care where my bullets fly, if I have to use deadly force training would help and not hinder. Sorry to hurt you feelings.

[JdePietro]

The day I stop trying and learning new methods of shooting and training will be the day there ceases to be a vaccuum in my chest.  I always learn something from this board, everytime I sign on! There is a really great group of knowledgable people on here that are always willing to help and that will keep me coming back for a while.

I started the thread in search of the answers. I can't figure out on my own how to grip the rifle while squaring off and putting the butt more center line to my axis. I agree that it would seem that you would have way more control of rearward recoil but I just can't figure out how to make it work without placing my support hand closer to the action thus loosing some stability at the muzzle.

I asked a local instructor, however he deals primarily with pistols, shotguns and carbines, and has not tried the same techniques out on a rifle. He seemed receptive but unsure of the end result and really suggested that I purchase a carbine for that sort of work. I would like my primary focus for training to be on a rifle length M1A. Of all the rifles it is by far my favorite and although it would not be my first choice for CQC it will be my primary rifle for competition and bug out emergencies for many personal reasons. I think many people associate the rifle with slow, long range shooting and give little thought to its tactical use in other roles. I would love to take a class that says different, that takes what most people consider absolete and prove that and old dog can be taught new tricks. Clint Smith and Jerry Miciulek are very inspirational people that can take revolvers and double barrel shotguns and prove that they can be used just as well as the new stuff. 

But you know I could be totally wrong and just am looking at things with blurred vision. I just found out (today) that there is and I.C.E training facility in Erie Pa. If I ever save up enough money for the trip out there I would love to take a tactical carbine/rifle class with my M1A.

[Rob Pincus]

Randy Smith is my Regional Rep in PA. He is a very experienced instructor, mostly in law enforcement circles. We have been talking about doing a carbine course in his area this year... maybe we can get you into it!

-RJP

[JdePietro]

With my rifle???

If I can get the time off and have change I would jump all over that!

[Rob Pincus]

I'l make sure that we let you know. Everything from a MP7s to  20" .308 semi-autos have going through that class already.....

-RJP