Fireman Suspended Over US Flag Decal ON LOCKER

[tombogan03884]

You missed why he was suspended, it was not for having the flag decal, it was for not fallowing orders.  

I really, really hate to say this, but legally speaking TAB is 100% right. You can have a policy saying people can post stuff on their lockers. You can have a policy saying they can't. What you cannot have is a policy saying that people may only post stuff we approve of. That simply will not fly.
FQ13

AAARRRGGGHHH   I have to agree with both of them. I've often seen places where the rules were nothing on the OUT side of you Locker. Nothing, is generaly excepted to mean, zero, zip, nada, zilch, nought, none.

[tfr270]

Ah Jeez!

OK...I'm a fireman. We have a policy saying what you can have on your locker, what stickers you can put on your helmet. It spells it out pretty clearly. 

Fire Departments are paramilitary. You follow orders. If you don't follow orders that order better have been dangerous (as in it would have resulted in injury or death had it been carried out) illegal or against the union contract affecting wages, hours, working conditions. Otherwise you are insubordinate.

If this is a Union shop then there seems there was no progressive discipline. It sounds like it went straight from "no, I'm not removing that sticker" to "you are suspended". Progressive discipline is your verbal warning, then written warning, then suspension leading to possible termination. If the members of this department are in an IAFF Local then I wouldn't want to be on the department side of this issue. If this department is not a Union shop then the fireman is going to have a hard go of defending himself here.

I know we hate to agree with TAB and FQ....but they are somewhat correct here. The stupid policy notwithstanding. 

[MikeBjerum]

He may not be following orders, or as you put it fallowing, but there is a time it take a stand for what is right when you are being ordered to do wrong.  A general order was put out to do something, he left his flag in place, and a person wanting to flex their authority applied a rule on an item that hopefully it wasn't meant for.  Remember that this rule was put in place because of a racial issue.

In this case the firefighter needs to be reinstated with back pay and a general apology from the department, and those enforcing the rules need to take common sense training.

This was a stand that needed to be taken, and I applaud Firefighter Krapf for his actions.  I would publicly support him in any fight he has in this.

We just had an issue here where a Fire Chief made a call within his power, and a council appointed committee had an issue with it.  They tried to remove him from not only his office but from the department.  I was among many that supported the Chief, and I was disappointed when he accepted an 18 day suspension and read an apology written by the City Council.  However, I learned that he did it to preserve peace in the community, because with his record and respect within the community he knew that a continued fight would have caused the entire city structure to be torn down by the public.  He did the right thing, and now we can only hope that the citizens of Windom, MN do their job in the next round of elections and unseat the czar wanna bes.

[Fatman]

(Oct. 17)
The department directed firefighters to keep the outside of their lockers undecorated after some employees took offense to a racially-motivated cartoon posted last summer.
Department officials told The Philadelphia Inquirer that banning any decor from lockers was the only way to prevent fighting among employees.
"The directive says 'everything,' " Capt. John Barbato, vice president of the department's union, told the newspaper. "I never would've thought the American flag would be included in that."

Meh. I would have removed the flag and then sanded the feckin' paint off the locker. 'Everything' is 'everything, and paint is 'decor', after all.

[TAB]

he is lucky he got a warning. If he was my employee, I would have said this "remove the decal by start of work tomarrow"

If he didn't comply, he would be fired.


When I say to do something, you will either do it, or you will be fired.  its that simple.

Is that harsh? maybe, but thats the way it is in MY company.


I'm its not really that hard to figure you, the FD ( the people really)  own the locker, they say don't put stickers on them, you don't put a sticker on them.   There is a very good reason for this policy, when you remove stickers, some times you remove the paint= they have to be repainted= $$$$$.   I painted lots of lockers, most newer lockers are either painted with a paint that resists tagers or are powder coated... either way they have to be striped by chemicals or media blasted before they can be painted.  you really don't want to know what that costs.

[Sponsor]

[Big Frank]

"you really don't want to know what that costs."

Sure I do.    Hmm, I wonder if anyone took all the stickers off of my old locker?

[david86440]

he is lucky he got a warning. If he was my employee, I would have said this "remove the decal by start of work tomarrow"

If he didn't comply, he would be fired.


When I say to do something, you will either do it, or you will be fired.  its that simple.

Is that harsh? maybe, but thats the way it is in MY company.

Hey TAB,

I agree that an employee has to do what they are told to do, but you must be a real AHOLE to work for.

I always thought it was more important to earn the respect of my employees then to have them fear me. You can get a lot more work out of them through mutual respect.

[TAB]

I've never had a complaint about being harsh/strick/ a SOB  from a employee.


Just the opposite, infact.  Other then some that I've fired very quickly, most of those were union members that I picked up at union hall for more hands.  They were either lazy, or were not up to thier titles.

I tend to hire people that are like myself, extremely profesional ( AKA anal) and take a real pride in thier work.  I will be right there next to you working.  For the most part, I almost never have to ask/tell my employees to do anything. They know what to do and when to do it. 



In this case, the guy violated policy( strike one),  he was told to remove it( thats strike two)  then didn't do it( thats strike three, he is out).  In this case I would have fired him after he refused to remove it, he was warned once( policy, I'm sure he signed it something saying he read the policy)   he was told once.... thats two "warnings"

[cooptire]

I can see both sides of our argument here. As a US citizen I see the ridiculous situation of CYA going on here with the total lack of common sense brought on because of the desire not to make a common sense decision. The don't want to allow it because they don't want to have the fight that the the flag is ok but the .......... (enter whateve symbol is next) that the next guy puts on his locker isn't.

On the other hand, as an employer, when I tell my employee's to do, or not do something, I expect that directive to be followed. I have a reason for saying that and that is what I expect in my employees. I do however listen to their ideas and expect them to use a little common sense. Personally, I don't make stupid, nonsensical rules and then apply them with an iron fist. Good employees are too hard to come buy.

That FD should have said, "Don't put offensive material on the outside of your lockers" followed by "If the US Flag is offensive to you, then go back to your own country!" 

[philw]

That FD should have said, "Don't put offensive material on the outside of your lockers" followed by "If the US Flag / Aussie  is offensive to you, then go back to your own country!" 

Exactly!!!

Basically, people who don't want to be Australians ( or Americans )  and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off