4 minutes to see where were headed by the stroke of the pen

[Pathfinder]

WatchMan, I think the real issue ihere is time. Yes, maybe if God favors us, the next election or 2 will remove a lot of the smarmy, self-serving assholes in Congress with which we are now stuck. For the sake of argument, let's say bho, Biden, all of the czars, Pelosi and Reid are all ejected from office. The Pubbies - with real conservatives in leadership, take over. What then?

The press will destroy every effort the new regime takes to undo bho's damage - assuming for the moment it can be undone. Once UN treaties are signed and approved by the Senate, it is my understanding we must go to the other treaty signers and ask their f..king permission (!!!!!) to withdraw from the treaty.

The entrenched bureaucracy within the Federal gummint will also work to destroy the new regime. See point above.

Assuming the first 2 items are not true, or can be overcome, what then? Is it even possible to undo what bho has already done, let alone what he will get done - with the willing complicity of the kongress - over the next 3+ years. How much damage has already been done? Maybe Soros' plan all along was to destroy the US economy and stature in the world in one term - after that, it really doesn't matter who commands the sinking ship.

Lastly, if my hunch is correct and JFK was whacked for fighting back against the trend back in the early 60's, then NO president - conservative or not - will seriously work to undo what has been done.

All of this assumes a lot happening in the next 3 years, assumptions that are unlikely to hold true. Again, how much damage will be done in those 3 years?

So maybe now you understand why the Colonists could not wait beyond 1775, and why maybe the American people - or at least the 3% who really five a f..k - can't wait much longer.

Put another solution on the table, help us win the soft war so that we can avoid - God willing - a hard war.

Where is your line drawn?

[tombogan03884]

From Watchman USA
"We can agree to disagree.  You can continue to advocate violence and I will continue to needle you about it."

Works for me  
Jefferson suggested that we have a revolution every 20 years or so to keep the politicians honest.
I will again ask if you don't agree with me than what do YOU suggest besides the failed voting process ?
Is there ANY tipping point that will make you say enough is enough ?

[WatchManUSA]

From Watchman USA
"We can agree to disagree.  You can continue to advocate violence and I will continue to needle you about it."

Works for me  
Jefferson suggested that we have a revolution every 20 years or so to keep the politicians honest.
I will again ask if you don't agree with me than what do YOU suggest besides the failed voting process ?
Is there ANY tipping point that will make you say enough is enough ?

No, Tom, I have not had the time this weekend to give you an answer.  You may have noticed that my posts have been fairly brief.  My daughter had a birthday and we had the family over for dinner yesterday.  Today, I sang in a choir concert which took much of the day.  In between times I resized some .40 S&W brass with my new G-Rx die and cleaned out the lint from the dryer vent.  I lead a very exciting life!    Perhaps in a couple of days I can craft a response.  Like you have been (or are), I'm unemployed right now and my first priority is networking and scaring up consulting work to fill my financial gap.

My first reaction was that I don't agree with your premise that elections are domed to failure.  Second, yes there will be a point at which enough will be enough for me.  I just have not defined it.  But, like you, I will be a participant and not the leader.

I could tell you all kinds of stuff but talk is cheap.  It is easier to talk-the-talk than it is to walk-the-talk.  Very few of us know or have any experience discovering what we are willing to do until faced with the real decision.

When you make a move like you advocated there is no turning back. 

[tombogan03884]

 Well, You wish that young lady a Happy Birthday from us here at the Forum.
As for singing, they would pay ME a lot more to stop than to start  
Since one of our members posted photos of a dryer jammed up by a snake, it seems that cleaning dryer vents can be VERY exciting.
In your post you wrote " there will be a point at which enough will be enough for me.  I just have not defined it. "
I would suggest that this is fairly common and discussions like we are having gives other food for thought in defining their own limits and standards. I will freely admit that some of the things I have said here were just vague ideas until our discussion forced me to form them into coherent words.
I'll be looking forward to your further posts.
Good luck with the job search.

[WatchManUSA]

I will again ask if you don't agree with me than what do YOU suggest besides the failed voting process ?

Is there ANY tipping point that will make you say enough is enough ?

Tom, you asked me to answer the above two questions and I’ll attempt to do so.  However, there is a third question to be asked and I think it is:

What are you willing to do about it?

This question is probably the most important one because, unless one is committed to action, the answers to the other two questions don’t really matter.  However, it is the most difficult question to answer if one is honest.

There is the old saying built around a breakfast of eggs and bacon.  “The chicken was involved but the pig was committed.”

As mentioned before, wuth a lot of bravado and testosterone flowing and it is very easy to say one is committed to the cause with one’s life to the death.  This is what our military does when taking the oath “to protect and defend the Constitution.”  Typically a solder goes away to a war and goes into harms way.  A solder’s family is usually safe from the daily impact of a conflict.

However, if talking about a true revolt as a private citizen, the action very likely will impact the entire family.  All loved ones become part of the potential sacrifice as evidenced by the experience of the signers of the Declaration of Impendence.  I’m sure that the Founders took their action after considering the consequences both to their loved ones and them.

So, what would I do?

Again, I don’t accept the premise that the voting process has failed.  I believe that the Founders purposely build a form of self-government that is quite messy, disorganized, slow, filled with passion and a host of other none complimentary adjectives.  This includes all three branches of the federal government.

It is also a fact that political power ebbs and flows between liberal and conservative over the course of our history.  No matter how I feel about our extremely liberal government in power right now they were all elected.  No matter what one thinks about our Maximum Leader’s citizenship status he is only a piece of the problem.

Since Reagan, even though we elected some politicians having a “R” after their name most have been RINO’s and I include the Bush 41 and 43.  This also includes the 1884 republican take over of Congress.  Too many were RINO’s.

I believe the root problem is too many of us are not involved in grass roots politics.  We let others attend the meetings and abdicate our responsibility to find, recruit and support candidates who reflect our values.

I want to take back the election process.   I want us to commit to the difficult work and not let the RINO’s control the process.

The easy way out is to grouse and complain and pontificate what a bunch of schlubs we allow to get elected.  Too many people go this route rather than getting involved and actually trying to influence the outcome at the source.

The political wonks of both parties don’t want nor encourage this type of involvement.  They want to control the type of politicians who get elected.  That way the party is the in control of the politician and not the People.

In the short term we have to elect politicians who will oppose our Maximum Leader’s agenda.  I don’t care what initial they have behind their name.  We must get politically active and elect people who will lead a meaningful resistance in Congress.

Another action I want is for some entity to challenge the constitutionality of many of the actions the Congress and actions of our Maximum Leader.  I don’t have the cash or the legal skill to even assist in this type of action.  I don’t like suggesting things that I can’t reasonably impact on my own at least in some small part.

What is my tipping point?

I’m not even close to being done contemplating this one yet because I haven’t determined what I willing do about it.  I know that the less the sacrifice of my family and the lower the consequence the lower the threshold for a tipping point will be.

I can be righteously indignant if all I want to do is talk a good game but have no intension of really doing anything.

I would suggest that everyone on the forum consider all three questions.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

What is my tipping point and what would I be WILLING to do I have answered in previous posts.
What AM I doing now ?
In the absence of a reputable leader I continue to work within the system, (Jeanne Shaheen won't reply to my letters and Carol Shea-Porter hates to see my name    ) I write letters to the editor, and to the White House reminding BO that his conduct, duties, and powers are supposed to be limited by the Constitution. I also vote in all elections, and speak out any time I hear any one spouting socialist BS.
However, as I have stated before I have no faith in the system. I may not have explained my reasons for that previously, I will do so now.
The problem is only partly elected officials, those from radically liberal constituencies can get away with a lot, but the rest have to tone it down to avoid alienating the voters, the REAL menace is those not elected, Staffers, aides,and career bureaucrats who were hired, regardless of the laws that are passed these are the people who write the policies of Agencies and they CAN'T be voted out, sued, or even identified in most cases because they lurk within committees. Think of the anti gunners at the CDC.
Then we have the ones outside of Govt. The leadership of groups like the ACLU, NEA, ABA and AMA. And then of course there is the blatantly one sided media passing on fluff stories, sensationalizing BS, praising the social elitists to the stars and if they mention OUR views at all it is only to belittle them or demonize them with prejudicial comments, half truths, and outright lies.
We the People have absolutely no influence on these people at all, but they basically run our Govt. Labor unions finance campaigns,  the professional associations advise on policy issues while the media's slanted polls influence the votes of the Elected officials.
Socialist nanny state elitists are a cancer on the body politic that has been ignored to long to be dealt with with in the system and now require a more radical approach. Perhaps the system could have protected us with early detection but the nation, while many may have complained, allowed FDR to start the infection, and then stood by doing nothing as the symptoms spread. Now we have reached the point where we require radical surgery or we will die, and might die even with radical action.

[Pathfinder]

Other than a reference to the NEA, Tom, you omitted the crass indoctrination of our children in the "public" schools to a statist mindset.

Otherwise, an excellent summation of why we are so freaked at actually seeing the line in the sand approach us. We shouldn't even see the line, it should be far off in the distance - and yet here it is racing toward us.

[WatchManUSA]

Tom, all good points and I'm pretty much in agreement with the assessment.  I will add that the groups you mentioned, I think we would agree that their leadership is extremely liberal, are embolden right now because of Maximum Leader and the left controlling congress.  The have the "bully pulpit" and are using it.

[tombogan03884]

Watchman, Now that you are aware of my reasoning, do I sound less in need of getting my head shrunk ?  
Path, I didn't get into the education/indoctrination system because that is all based on policies pushed by the UN and adopted by those unaccountable leaders of the NEA and the National teachers union.
As for the UN, we should with draw our membership and funding, America did not, nor was it intended to grow great through cooperation with the rest of the world. in fact, our greatness was achieved IN SPITE of the rest of the worlds opposition.

Watchman, as in the debate on open carry as a political statement, we are on the same side, we are simply debating methods.

[MikeBjerum]

The United Nations was created following WWII with the intent of avoiding war ... Yea ... that has been successful.

Just like any government it has become a monster out of control.

I have been looking around and have a hard time getting hard numbers, but the most common figure is $1.2 billion annually from the United States to the U.N.  I also have read for years how the U.N. determins, often at the urging of us or western nations, that military might must be used.  The United States tends to be the main force, highest numbers and costs, and is seldom reimbursed by other nations.  In fact, I recall a few years ago that a "true U.N. mission" was not paid for by the U.N., and there was debate of us withholding our dues to gain on the U.N. debt ... however, we didn't follow through.

I am going to add to my vocabulary a phrase I first learned in the 60's, "Get us out of the U.N.!"  All I see at this time from the U.N. is that it gives many small nations the right to control the United States with our blessings.  It gives nations the ability to do what England could not do in 1776 ... Negate our Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

A paraphrase from a businessman I know well that had a client that was jacking him around and telling him how to do business - He told his representative to "Go back in the meeting room, say nothing, gather all his papers and briefcase, and leave ... and if you want to give them the finger on the wayout, that is fine with me."  We need to tell the United Nations that we are done!