The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: noskilz on October 30, 2007, 07:47:13 PM
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I'm fairly new to the world of firearms. But since I've been old enough to buy my own huntin' magazines (long before the Nobel Peace Prize Winner invented the internet), I've always read that a pump shotgun, loaded with anything from 00 buck to #4 birdshot, was the preferred weapon for home defense. Reliable, effective, easier to aim, needed less training than a hand gun (?), and less likely to hurt loved ones behind sheetrock. I'm not talking about the guarding of the homestead against marauders here. But the "Honey, I think I heard a window break downstairs" kind of home defense.
Now I've just heard - from someone I suspect as being very knowledgeable - that a tactical rifle with frangible ammo (I don't even know what that is) is the preferred home defense weapon. I'm looking for the right home defense long arm, and this seems to be the right place to get other qualified opinions. Can you folks enlighten me on why a tactical rifle, and with what kind of ammo, is preferred to a 12 or 20 gauge? Or is that just flat out wrong?
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Home defense? Get a good revolver (Ruger SP or anything reliable that will shoot 44 specials). You NEVER forget or have to think about how to use it.
Contrary to popular belief I don't think a pump makes a good home defense gun. Why you ask? Well, the old myth or "racking a round" and scaring the bad guy is BS. If it ain't loaded it's a club. Second the possibility of "short stroking" and jamming the weapon.
If ya want a shotgun for home defense get a coach gun (short double barrel). Easy to use and if you need more than two, reload is easy.
1st choice though is a good revolver. Can't jam and if you have a mis-fire just pull the trigger again.
BTW these are MY recommendations for the average Joe. Now if you want to go to Front Sight or Thunder Ranch or some other school they may TEACH you other things. BUT for vast majority I will stand by my choices.
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Contrary to popular belief I don't think a pump makes a good home defense gun. Why you ask? Well, the old myth or "racking a round" and scaring the bad guy is BS. If it ain't loaded it's a club. Second the possibility of "short stroking" and jamming the weapon.
BTW these are MY recommendations for the average Joe. Now if you want to go to Front Sight or Thunder Ranch or some other school they may TEACH you other things. BUT for vast majority I will stand by my choices.
+1. Don't forget the "you don't have to aim with a shotgun" myth!
In my experience, a good revolver is easier to handle with less training than a pump gun. Unfortunately, most people won't/can't get high quality instruction.
Also, it's pretty much impossible to find shotgun loads that will penetrate enough in people to be effective but not overpenetrate sheetrock. There are, of course, a million variables...distance, barrel length, etc.
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Well, I do have a Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel. It's a nice shootin' revolver, and I try to shoot at least twice a month at the range. But I was really surprised when I heard the guy on GunTalk very briefly recommend a tactical rifle over a shotgun for a home defense weapon. I was frankly shocked by that, and I wanted other opinions.
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Used corectly either can be very effective all have their place . Training is a must with any system.
sometimes the best is the one most handy when needed train with all. Even if it's a bat. WATCH OUT FOR ZOMBIES.
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Well if you're asking about a home defense long guns, basically I don't see a need for one against home invasion.
Now if you live with big kitties or bears around that's a different thing.
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12 ga. pump gun, double 0 buck
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12 ga. pump gun, double 0 buck
If you're shooting from the front porch that's fine but if you trying to maneuver in a house, nope.
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If you're shooting from the front porch that's fine but if you trying to maneuver in a house, nope.
Totally agree. Personally my CCW and first line of home defence is Glock 23 with 13+1 of 155grn Federal HST. If I had a big house I might sling my 12 guage (knoxx stock) with Eotech or AK with red dot as a back up.
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If you are picking off Taliban hangin' around your mailbox rifles are fine, if not, tactical Rifles and Shotguns are unwiieldy in a home. The bad guy can see it coming around a corner and maybe grab it. Handguns are better. Revolvers are ALMOST foolproof, but I prefer autoloaders just becuase you usually have MORE ROUNDS.
A really great round for handheld human stopping power at close range is the .45acp. You can get dozens of different 45s that would make a nice home defence weapon that have REAL stopping power. To make it safer to fire in a populated area, use hollow point or expanding jacket (EFMJ) ammo that will flatten out and slow down when it hits something.
Get some training, or at least read as much as you can and watch as many videos as you can to learn stuff.
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Jaybethel,
The OP has stated that he TRIES to practice twice a month, which means he does less, (not bustin your chops Noskilz) so once again I say REVOLVER. Semis take time to learn to operate "in your sleep", and as Walt Rausch says "If you couldn't get it done in the first five or six what makes you think another five or six will do it".
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No problem, Hazcat. I chose my moniker carefully! ::)
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Depends on your home. I have a small home and I like my Bushmaster carbon 15 9mm pistol with soft tip or hollow points. It allows many attachment possibilities like lights or what ever. 9mm soft tips so I don't overpenetrate and shoot through my home. Plus it gives me 30 rds. I do believe a short barrel 12g pump is not a bad option, just maybe not for everyone.
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I would offer the suggestion that not only does it depend on your home, it depends on your PLAN. As you probably already know, you should have a plan for different events just as you would for a fire in the house. How you react to a fire in the bedroom might be different than your plan of egress for a fire, say, in the kitchen.
For example, given the layout of my house and the location of my 2-year-old daughter's room relative to mine, if the perp breaks into one of our rooms, I'm going to have my .45 and Surefire in my hands. If he's at the other end of the house, I'll have the .45 in my hand as I get my daughter and retreat into my room so that she and my wife can take cover... Then I am sitting at the end of a dark hallway with my 870 aimed at the first sign of motion at the light end of the hallway. This is one of the reasons that a kitchen light stays on all night.
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I like my Winchester 1300 with #4 shot, and either of my pistols. SHTF the AK can be brought on line quick.
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I like my Winchester 1300 with #4 shot, and either of my pistols. SHTF the AK can be brought on line quick.
#4 buckshot, right?
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I also like my 1300 with #8 up front, followed by #4 or 00. Also have my Glock 21 & RRA AR 15 as part of my "game plan".
Dave
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870 with surefire forend, 7 shot tube, 4 shot sidesaddle, 20" barrel, car15 stock, tritium rifle sights, #4 buck.
glock 17 with 28 round mag, and night sights.
S&W 649 and 940, one for momma and one for me.
1 surefire g2, 3 streamlight stingers in chargers next to the bed.
2 cell phones.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1338.jpg)
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I have seen many good points in response to your question....I would say that your choice should be one you are comfortable with, meaning, practice with your choice. Take time to look at your longest possible shot inside your home, your construction, can you over penetrate and hit family or others. What access do you have to your weapon. I have 2 small children so I have those concerns and can't have all over/anytime access. I feel the single most important issue is what YOU CAN SHOOT WELL [/u] when the chips are down. Good luck, shoot often, be safe.
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AR in M-4 configuration with a Surefire mounted, EoTech or ACOG sighting system and 75gr BTHPs in the magazines. Fast handling, very accurate, and good stopping power with no worries about over-penetration. Glock 30 with a hand held Surefire or Glock 35 with a Surefire mounted on the 35, extra mags, in my tactical vest. As with anything, training, have a plan and the "3-Ps": Practice, practice, practice. Also, if someone wants to grab the business end of my carbine, it will be the last mistake they make (the first one is entering my home uninvited)! 8)
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I'm back and going with Medic 1097 who is on to something (and I'll take the hit from Haz as well) The BIGGEST consideration is what kind of shot you may have to take, and your own domestic circumstances. Is the maximum shot going to be ten feet or thrity five...what kind of weapon is comfortable... so many things.
I live in NJ which, by all accounts may be the least gun-friendly state in the union. Being a highly populated place, one consideration we have here is collateral damage. I could almost THROW my 45 in the ocean from where I live, but the downside is a neighbor 20 feet on both sides of me. If I go at it with my 9mil I could be burying neighbors instead of bad guys. SO...my focus is on bigger slower bullets. I know, maybe the Judge would be a good weapon, but I can't warm up to the concept of a mini fist-shotgun.
A well maintained semi auto is not that much trouble for someone who shoots twice a month. A Sig 220 is a perfect example. But you have to be comfortable with your weapon and you have to be able to operate it without much thought. Then it doesn't much much matter what you shoot if you can be affective.
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I prefer a long-gun for home defense. A good shotgun or rifle is far more likely to STOP a shooter than any pistol, no matter what Ultra Mega-super Magnum ammo you feed it (unless maybe it's a .500 Magnum). As for being unwieldy, Ok, I'll buy that, but I ain't stupid enough to go wandering around looking for a bad guy in the dark of the night, I pay taxes for cops to handle that. I keep my cell-phone in the bedroom with me in case the phones go out (with my cable-system phone service, no power=no phone). I'm just going to hunker down in the bedroom doorway with the ol' M-37 Ithaca 12 gauge and wait for yon evildoer to poke his head around the corner or the sound of sirens, whichever comes first. Here in Detroit the scum run in packs and only butt-crack Rambo's go runnin' around the house thinking it's the O.K. Corral!
1st, get a weapon you like and which works well
2nd, learn your house (weak points, zones of fire, construction etc.) and make it work for you. Get alarms, bars on the windows, good locks, whatever you can afford to make your home a better castle.
3rd, keep emergency supplies in the bedroom. Gun, cell phone, flashlights, BATTERIES, first-aid kit etc. Adjust according to your needs, if the cops are hours away (if you live in the real boonies) have water and snacks and meds in there, you might need them.
4th, get good training and advice, gun mags and websites are great, they are also full of mall-ninjas and chuckleheads (though not around here, of course). Use your brain, you were issued it for a reason.
Lastly, practice emergencies, from fire to intruders. Practice lets you screw up for free, waiting for the real thing can be awful expensive.
Hope this helps.
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"Lastly, practice emergencies, from fire to intruders. Practice lets you screw up for free, waiting for the real thing can be awful expensive.
Hope this helps. "
+1!!!!!
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Yes Don #4 ,buckshot.
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I agree with others here ,its where you live and what you live in along with kids or no kids, so many variables to take into consideration. Just me and the wife and dogs in a rural setting. If I lived in an apartment things would be totaly different.
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To (mis)quote Chubby Pigeon, a fellow who contributes on another forum I frequent, pick one and become proficient with it. That said, for me it comes down to either the 12 gauge or the Glock 21/30. It's 00 buck vs. Fed 230 Hydra-Shoks. We have a upward sloping front yard, which I've always suspected would act as a fantastic backstop for anyone coming up our stairs, so I might could use a rifle if needs must. But I'd really rather not. My neighbor across the street is a really nice guy, and I don't want to launch bullets through his dining room window.
I always recommend a revolver/Glock or a 12 gauge shotgun to people who ask for advice but won't be shooting IDPA with me.This is because the revolver can be bought, familiarized with, and never used for 20 years and still work. The shotgun is for the bird hunter or skeet and trap guy who wants a simple familiar set up (double or pump is up to them in my book). The Glock is a bit more problematic, as it takes some maintenance and a bit more practice than the revolver, but 15-17 rounds of 9mm can be very comforting.
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I'm going to come down on the side a revolver as the front-line of home defense for new shooters...simple is simply better. My number one choice (as has been suggested earlier) would be a Ruger .357 GP-100 4-inch, loaded with .38 Special +Ps. Rock solid gun; accurate; easy to shoot. I would definitely include Crimson Trace LaserGrips!
Longgun-wise, a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 pump; load depends on your location. If you're out in the country not close to your neighbors, #00 buckshot, preferably a police loading. If you're in a subdivision, some type of high-brass game shot loads, whihc are not going to penetrate nearly as much as any flavor of buckshot. I live out in the country...I've got Remington #00 Express loads in the "social" shotgun. Next time I buy buckshot, it'll be Hornady TAPS #00 (I used up all the rounds I scammed at GUNSITE a couple of years ago! Maybe I should go suck up to Steve Hornady...).
Michael B
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I think this question is as broad as it is long . . . Experience vs. Rookie, longgun vs. handgun, heavy load vs. light.
Like others have mentioned I believe it’s what you’re comfortable with and what you have trained with. When recommending a handgun for a neophyte who is only willing to do limited training and maintenance I like either a K-frame S&W in .38spl or .357mag with a 4’ or 3” barrel (3” my choice) , or the Ruger GP series (or a good used Speed Six if you can find one). With someone willing to go the whole nine yards, any of the wonder autos in a major caliber.
As far as longguns, my rock-and-roll gun is a tricked out Remington 870, 12ga that I have target-tested, on a B-27 target, at 25 yards with both 00 buckshot and Foster-style slugs. But I don’t recommend this combo for everyone, especially if you’re in a close-in neighborhood. If you’re inclined toward a scattergun and you’re in an area not suited for buckshot or slugs, look at a new age version of the Malaysian Load. This load was developed by the British Commonwealth troops in the 50’s battling the Malaysian uprising. This load used a version of their version of buckshot mixed with a smaller size shot similar to our mid-size shot. This load provided penetration through the jungle cover and the smaller shot gave a good size pattern. While this load is not produced by a current major American manufacturer, there is a load by Remington that would be useful for many home defense applications, the Premier Duplex Magnum Copper-Plated Buffered Turkey Load which features a combo of 1 ½ oz’s of shot sizes 4 & 6. Years ago I believe this was also offered in 2 x 4 or something similar which was even better for home defense.
Now let’s look at the .223’s and .308’s lurking about . . .
Scott M
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My number one choice is my detla elite. The floor plan of my house is not long gun friendly. Then again, take what ever you want in the front rooms its all insured, come down the hallway and your dead.
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Like many gun topics, it depends on who you ask. And depending on who you ask.. you will get a different response. Tatical rifles such as AR's can be good because of higher capacities..(more shots if you need them), plenty of firepower to end a threat, and you can literally scare mr. badguy away just by him seeing your weapon. Ammo like Hornady TAP is design for indoor close range shooting. It does not overpentrate through mr.badguy and then shoot through three more houses. It is designed to stop in mr.badguy. So with right ammo a rifle can be great for homedefense. Only draw back is the sound. It is very loud and you probably will have to have some type of hearing protection.. maybe electronic ears muffs that let you hear normal but protect your ears. Shotguns are/can be good too.. I do personally recommend bird shot indoors b/c at close range it is still devistating. Some buckshot/slugs will over penetrate and could hurt someone in another room etc.. either way the right ammo that doesn't go through lots of walls or down the street through three more houses .. that is what is important. I would choose which one I felt more comfortable with and then get right ammo. ... **Umm.. there are also many good pistols out there today that have good stopping power, high capacites of shots, and many options for lights and lasers. I believe any one ..a rifle, shotgun, or a pistol can be a great home defense gun if you have the right ammo and if it fits your particular situation.
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I keep a Smith and Wesson 625 45acp revolver on the bed table along with my glasses and flashlight. On top of the dresser two steps away I keep a Stoeger 12 gauge coach gun loaded with 00 and the action broke open. I'm becoming a deep sleeper so I've taken to putting noisey things in front of the doors when I hit the sack. I need a few seconds to get my brain out of neutral.
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Since the question seems to be what is preferred and not what do you recommend, I prefer the AR. I keep mine with 29 rounds of 75 gr. Black Hills Red box ammunition. It's a standard M4 configuration with a SureFire M500 light. It works for me as I spend more time with the AR platform training, practicing, and competing, than I do anything else.
Penetration issues? Relatively few. In general, all pistol calibers between 9mm and 45 acp penetrate more than any 5.56 loading (except for black-tip armor piercing)
Noise issues? None. The first thing I do when I roll out of bed is put on a set of Pro-Ears. Not only will they protect my hearing if I need to shoot, I can also turn them up and amplify small sounds which gives me an advantage when I'm trying to determine whether what I just heard was a creaking house or a stalking intruder.
Additional benefits? The abilitiy to punch body armor if needed combined with a general increase in precision compared to a pistol.
Disadvantages? Larger size can present some challanges manuvering in tight quarters. Good close quarters training with the rifle is essential. Fortunately, I know a good training school! ;)
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why home defence, my state(massachusetts) tells us that they will protect you, we dont need guns just run away and the police will come to your aid, now that you belive that i have a bridge........ ;D
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As for being unwieldy, Ok, I'll buy that, but I ain't stupid enough to go wandering around looking for a bad guy in the dark of the night, I pay taxes for cops to handle that. I keep my cell-phone in the bedroom with me in case the phones go out (with my cable-system phone service, no power=no phone). I'm just going to hunker down in the bedroom doorway with the ol' M-37 Ithaca 12 gauge and wait for yon evildoer to poke his head around the corner or the sound of sirens, whichever comes first. Here in Detroit the scum run in packs and only butt-crack Rambo's go runnin' around the house thinking it's the O.K. Corral!
1st, get a weapon you like and which works well
2nd, learn your house (weak points, zones of fire, construction etc.) and make it work for you. Get alarms, bars on the windows, good locks, whatever you can afford to make your home a better castle.
3rd, keep emergency supplies in the bedroom. Gun, cell phone, flashlights, BATTERIES, first-aid kit etc. Adjust according to your needs, if the cops are hours away (if you live in the real boonies) have water and snacks and meds in there, you might need them.
4th, get good training and advice, gun mags and websites are great, they are also full of mall-ninjas and chuckleheads (though not around here, of course). Use your brain, you were issued it for a reason.
Lastly, practice emergencies, from fire to intruders. Practice lets you screw up for free, waiting for the real thing can be awful expensive.
Hope this helps.
Very good advise - I don't keep a single weapon for home defense - I do keep Remington 870 with extended mag with buck & slug's in the bedroom and handguns and carbine as well - carbine due to back of the house face's a park with 200+ meter shooting possibilty so no shotgun is going to have enough accuracy for it - handgun if I do decide to go thru the house, Shotgun for wife to barracade in the bed room - and if your expecting this much trouble get a VEST as well. Join a gun club - do IPSC, USPSA, 3-gun shooting to see what works best for you.
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Hey noskilz...If you get "Outdoor Channel" where Down Range TV is aired check out "Personal Defense TV". Good people, good show, good advise. Check your local listings or have someone you know record it for you. Check out the web site too. Might be able to get Season 1 shows. This is 2nd season and I don't think they have started re-runs yet. It's worth a shot (PI).
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I always recommend a revolver to anyone who asks. But it's my XD-45 that's in reach from my bed.
Kitchen light on all the time. Excellent idea!
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I keep a pistol grip, pistol pump 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck handy in the closet, but for nightstand next to bed, i would obviously recommend a pistol. The argument for revolver vs. semi is a dead horse as far as i am concerned, but i would require that whichever you choose, you be proficient with it.
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I have felt safe with a pump 12 ga. loaded with #6. I have lived in the back woods and in town and either way didn't want to have the rounds leave more than one room.
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As it appears this thread has breathed new life, and there may be some new shooters looking to develop new skills with that special Christmas present, let me belatedly give important advice. Greatly experienced shooters have detailed all the forgoing pages with hardware and preferences. But also critical to your long term social and economic survival is a VERY clear understanding of the laws on deadly (gun) force in your State. Those laws, and your adherence to them, will determine how you get to live the rest of your life after a deadly encounter. You must know what you are permitted to do, when you can do it and what to say to whom when its over. If it happens, you may find that the actual shooting is the easy part. My point, get training. You don't have to spend a fortune and go off to some exotic facility. If you live in a concealed handgun carry State, that course will provide what you need to know, provided by licensed instructors, who prepare you for the aftermath. Where I am, in NC, it is just 12 hours, and worth every minute. Good training creates good luck. Mac.
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I second DDMack's comments. Whenever I've moved, one of the first things I do is HIRE A LOCAL ATTORNEY to explain the state's CCW and deadly force laws to me. Has costs me at most $200, but I come away with an understanding of what the local laws actually mean. Ditto on getting training...if you state has a CCW class available, take it.
As you might expect, I get a lot of email, and I'm often stunned at how much misinformation remains out there. About once a month I get a "I'll kill 'em all and take my chances with the legal system." My response is always the same — you'll love jail! I once did a trial simulation with Massad Ayoob where I was a defendant charged in legitimate civilian self-defense shooting. The scenario was that a high-speed district attorney wanted to "make his bones" on me. It was a DARN SCARY EXPERIENCE! I was "on the stand" for more than four hours, and I had my entire life dissected...
Michael B
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Howdy, all. I'm new to this forum, glad to have found it. Though new to the forum, I'm not new to firearms nor to this particular issue.
The discussion about "Best for home defense?" comes up regularly, and is the cause for much debate and gnashing of teeth.
I boil it down to this; who are you, where are you, what can you?
Who are you = male, female, large, small, disabled, healthy, young, old.
Where are you = city, suburb, rural, state.
What can you = proficient, with what, how hard are you willing to work?
Everyone's situation is different, so there is no one-size-fits all answer, except ...... learn the law, get training, keep up to date.
If you aren't willing to do the work necessary to become proficient with your weapon of choice, then don't get a weapon, at least, not a firearm. I know many don't agree with that opinion, they often point to incidents where individuals defended themselves effectively with the handgun that belonged to dead Granpa who brought back that rusty 1911 from wwII.....
Still. Get training, become as proficient as possible.
Andy
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I would tend to stay away from any long gun for my home defense needs. Others have mentioned having to go out and get their kids and bring them into their bedroom so that everyone is in the same place. This is what I would have to do so the hunker down and wait is not an option for me. It would be nearly impossible to carry my child and use a long gun of any type to any effect. At least with a handgun I can, if need be ,shoot one handed no problem. Also another thing to think about is that if you wake up and the bad guys are in your room, you may be able to bring a revolver(or any handgun) in to play quicker.
In running these types of situations in my head I always try to think of the worst possible things happening and how I would deal with them. If you have a buddy with a shotgun or rifle try going through the house and see what your pros and cons would be. I will add if your going to do this MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED :P
Hope some of this helps.
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Even if you have military training you need home defense training. It's a TOTALLY differant set of rules, and potential hazards. When you clear a building in Bagdad you are working with trained pros when you clear you home you are working with your untrained kids and wife. In a war zone it may be alright to shoot on sight, in many states if you are not directly threatened you can't shoot. If you shoot some one who has their arms full of you TV or computer, you may be convicted of murder.
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Whatever works...and generally that's whatever you've got.
I may have mentioned this in an earlier post, but whenever I move into a new place, one of the things I do (and that my girlfriend thinks is pretty funny) is "work the corners" with an AirSoft gun to give me a sense of how I need to move to counter various threats. I spend some time figuring out how I would break in...where I would go...how would I move...etc. You first use the information gleaned from that exercise to "harden" the weak points of your house, essentially to "funnel" the bad guy in the direction you want. Then you take the same information and use it to "game" the lines in your house.
The house I live in now is hardened at what I perceived as he weak points, with a sophisticated alarm system backing up the hardening. I also know where my shots are in a whole series of gaming exercises. Handy info to have if I need it!
Michael B
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I like either the G35 with Corbon DPX, or a S&W1911PD 4.25" with CT grips. Along with 100+ lumes SureFire which has replacement bulb for LED installed and then placed under the grip of gun. Which is placed in a Multi-gun Minivault. The one with the Hand print on top for combo. Standard right. Well others like the shotgun,carbine, or classIII option, but not I. As odd as it sounds I think in CQB like apartments or small homes, it is hard to beat edge weapons. Moving fast to get your kids is easier with a edged weapon. Also 6'2" 250lbs of me coming around the corner with MACHETE..... lets just say that old saying racking a 12ga. vs. me w/Machete I am scarier. Now, do i prefer to be bunkered down, with family in check, and behind my front sight? You bet! But I do not feel "one-legged @ the kicking contest" with an "Edged option" either. You can buy a sub $8 machete at Walmart or go nuts(Love my custom Tomahawks) also. This is probably going to be the most unpopular post but at least its honest. :-\
Tex
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MB, you should do a video on the techniques you use, and things to consider in hardening and gaming your defensive strategies.
Tex, considering things like house construction, misses and over penetration, your method may not appeal to most here (I'm 5'8" 150 lbs, but I've got this axe...) but may be the safest for your neighbors.
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I would second Michael's recommendation of contacting a good attorney and having them explain your jurisdiction's self defense and CCW laws. But don't just hire any attorney and certainly don't go to one who advertises on TV. Instead, you want to talk to your local police and/or prosecutor and find out who they would have represent them if they got caught up as a defendant in a criminal case. Find out who your local FOP hires for cops when they get in trouble. Given the amount of money that you can spend on flashlights, guns, fancy ammo, holsters, Oakley's, 5.11 clothes, electronic ear muffs, folding knives, fancy training from some ex-Spec Ops superninja, etc. etc. the $2-500 that you'll spend learning from a good criminal defense attorney is CHEAP.
As for weapon recommendations, anything will do really as long as it works, it's powerful enough, and you are familiar with it. For me that's a 16 in AR with a Leupold prismatic optic and BUIS, LMT stock, Surefire light on a VTAC mount, loaded with 75gr HPBT backed up by a Dan Wesson 1911 w/ 230 gr. Hydrashocks. And I've not one but three good defense attorneys that I can contact at a moments notice.
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You're not supposed to count yourself. :D
I already decided long ago that I'm calling you.
Erik
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i guess my input on this would be: if it is home defense being that you are going to defend a location in your home the pump shotgun in 12ga. racking in a load it self should scare someone off. if you are going to move around the house clearing and checking rooms then i would check into the judge by taurus. it can fire 45lc and/or a 410 3"shotgun shell. of course you would have to take into account where you live and how close the next house to yours. what are you comfortable with? Is the last question to ask yourself. our family has a safe room. not like in the movie's this is a room which has a choke point. a small area\ doorway which is the only way some one can enter. which also has cover on the inside to defend from with a radio ,house phone and a cell phone in which to call the police. this works well with my wife when i am not home. also the area that you shoot at someone has a backdrop which i do not have to worry about missing the target and where the shot goes. i hope this was helpful. RGJ.
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i guess my input on this would be: if it is home defense being that you are going to defend a location in your home the pump shotgun in 12ga. racking in a load it self should scare someone off.
Or you could always just shout "HEY, MR BAD GUY...I'M OVER HERE!".
Not trying to bust your balls, just pointing out another possible way of looking at that 'scary' sound idea.
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Or you could always just shout "HEY, MR BAD GUY...I'M OVER HERE!".
Not trying to bust your balls, just pointing out another possible way of looking at that 'scary' sound idea.
the best enconter to have with mr bad guy is the one where he leaves because he dose not want to mess with you. if you entered someones home and heard the 12 gauge loading would you stay? or find and easyer target.
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Hey, as I said I'm not trying to get into a pi$$ing contest with ya. Just my belief that unloaded rifle is a expensive club. (Not chambered is unloaded in my book).
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You're not supposed to count yourself. :D
I already decided long ago that I'm calling you.
Erik
Don't call me, I'm on the other team!
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Exactly!
I want to know who you'd hate to have to go up against. (Then I'd hire you as a Subject Matter Expert!)
Erik
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Just watched Robert Pincus of the Valhalla Shooting and Training Center DVD with the sheetrock/penetration demonstration.
He used everything, and the shotgun with #9 shot had the least amount of over penetrating walls in most homes. HOWEVER,
late at night, half awake, dark, etc,.. a shotgun is going to temporarily deafen you and may temp. blind you as well. This is true for a pistol, but a good revolver for someone, even if it's a 38 JHP, will be easier to handle, safer to move around with, and will not over penetrate. Just a thought.
Practice, Practice, Practice!
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Good point, Tom. But if you do use a shotgun, you are more likely to feel the thud of a really dead body hitting the floor. Mac.
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I Have to agree that the .45 cal is a fine choice for a HDW. All of the ballisticts charts that I have read and studied over the years, and wet phone books that I have shot through, I have came to this realization: The .45 auto CorBon 165grain JHP+P has 1250 fps and 573 ft lbs.The Phone book that I shot with the 165 grain JHP+P was shot out of my sig GSR 1911 @ 15 ft. Needless to say that with 2 rounds the phone book wouldn't be letting any more fingers do the walking "if you know what i mean! The exit holes of the two holes that were shot into the phone book you could fit a pretty good size grapefruit in them.I use the Cor Bon 165 and 185 JHP+P's for home and carry in all of my 1911's and my HK USP G21SF & G30. I've never had a jam,stovepipe or
misfire with this ammo. Hope this helps.
inthe10
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This might be a little off subject, but my dog is first in my line of defence. Not a big dog, but a very loud and alert one. My dog is not a fighter however if someone touches my front gate or my door she goes off. I have full confidence that my dog will know well before me (especially when sleeping) if there is something wrong in the house. Alarms are great but they are not companions. The 30 seconds that my dog so graciouly gives me is enough time to arm myself with what is available ( a 14 round Beretta .40 would be the closest). Just a little praise to the one that gives me minutes when seconds are lifetimes.
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A Kibble powered alarm system that gives you company, as well as security, and functions without electicity. What more can you ask for ;D
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That it bites them in te crotch!
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That it bites them in te crotch!
Thats MEAN, but effective ;D
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If you use any firearm for home defense weather your home is a house or an apartment don't you have to be mindful of where that round will end up. I use a 1911 45acp for home defense but I still til this day can't pin down the proper round to use. I don't want it to pass thru the wall and injure anyone else. The closes I can come to a guess is the Fed. 165 gr. PPD Hydra-Shock round and at best that is only a guess on my part . Yes, shooting into wet phone books will give you an idea of penetration or build a wall outside and shoot through it to see what it will do. But who can do this if you don't own enough land to try it out. I know they won't let me try it at my local gun club.The factory techs all say the same thing use only 230 gr. FMJ. Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out were that round is going to end up???
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If you use any firearm for home defense weather your home is a house or an apartment don't you have to be mindful of where that round will end up. I use a 1911 45acp for home defense but I still til this day can't pin down the proper round to use. I don't want it to pass thru the wall and injure anyone else. The closes I can come to a guess is the Fed. 165 gr. PPD Hydra-Shock round and at best that is only a guess on my part . Yes, shooting into wet phone books will give you an idea of penetration or build a wall outside and shoot through it to see what it will do. But who can do this if you don't own enough land to try it out. I know they won't let me try it at my local gun club.The factory techs all say the same thing use only 230 gr. FMJ. Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out were that round is going to end up???
You are correct about being responsible for every round right up till the time it stops moving, might even get greif if some one steps on it and cuts their foot. My solution is to use 230 gr hollow points counting on lowwer velocity and expansion to lessen the chance of over penatration. I may be wrong, but if I wind up in court, while it may do me no good, at least I made some effort to minimize the risk.
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I have also read some confusing stuff on the .45 for home defense. Obviously it has the knock-down power, but I have read (forget where) that there is some concern about UNDER-penetration with .45 hollow point. Even so, it has to hurt and maim. My wife has HP in her .357 revolvers and I will keep HP in the 9, but currently in the .45 I use EFMJ when on home guard duty. I think it's safe to say that if you are concerned about what's on the other side of the wall, ball or plain FMJ ammo is out, no matter what the caliber.
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I prefer a long-gun for home defense. A good shotgun or rifle is far more likely to STOP a shooter than any pistol, no matter what Ultra Mega-super Magnum ammo you feed it (unless maybe it's a .500 Magnum). As for being unwieldy, Ok, I'll buy that, but I ain't stupid enough to go wandering around looking for a bad guy in the dark of the night, I pay taxes for cops to handle that. I keep my cell-phone in the bedroom with me in case the phones go out (with my cable-system phone service, no power=no phone). I'm just going to hunker down in the bedroom doorway with the ol' M-37 Ithaca 12 gauge and wait for yon evildoer to poke his head around the corner or the sound of sirens, whichever comes first. Here in Detroit the scum run in packs and only butt-crack Rambo's go runnin' around the house thinking it's the O.K. Corral!
1st, get a weapon you like and which works well
2nd, learn your house (weak points, zones of fire, construction etc.) and make it work for you. Get alarms, bars on the windows, good locks, whatever you can afford to make your home a better castle.
3rd, keep emergency supplies in the bedroom. Gun, cell phone, flashlights, BATTERIES, first-aid kit etc. Adjust according to your needs, if the cops are hours away (if you live in the real boonies) have water and snacks and meds in there, you might need them.
4th, get good training and advice, gun mags and websites are great, they are also full of mall-ninjas and chuckleheads (though not around here, of course). Use your brain, you were issued it for a reason.
Lastly, practice emergencies, from fire to intruders. Practice lets you screw up for free, waiting for the real thing can be awful expensive.
Hope this helps.
I agree with Warhawke. My plan is similar to his. My choice of a weapon is the tried and true Remington 870 with Scattergun Technology Ghost rings and a surefire forend. I also prefer the adjustable Carolina stock. My load of choice is the Remington 00 buck reduced recoil. As stated many times here, make a choice and get familiar wit that choice. Also you need to have a home self defense plan and practice it.
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I think a 105mm Howitzer loaded with canister shot will be adequate!
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I think a 105mm Howitzer loaded with canister shot will be adequate!
Definitely annoying to the neighbors. ;D
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Talk about bang for your buck..... a 105mm.... wonder if they can make that in a shorter version????
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Talk about bang for your buck..... a 105mm.... wonder if they can make that in a shorter version????
Like for Concealed carry ? Yes, it's called the hand grenade ;D
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I agree with Tom's previous comments regarding the "kibble powered alarm" ... If someone comes to Johnson Manor they have three large hounds to get through. Should they be wearing cups and that not convince them, the talons of my evil wife. Last stand would be to go guns. Now, I have to check with the Mrs. on what gun will color coordinate with my pajamas but usually, it will be either a tuned 5" S&W 625, a SIG 220(both w/Win Black Talons) or a 4" S&W 629 (w/Win. 44 SP Silvertips) that was ported and tuned by the folks at Mag-Na-Port.
Long guns make sense and Erik is right when he says that a .223 will not penetrate anymore than many handgun calibers. My problem is that I don't have a .223 and since I already have a 22-250, I don't really need one. Grabbing my M1A Scout would be great if I defending my house from a platoon strength foe. My 375HH Sako if it were some pissed off bears. Given that I have 45 yards from my front door to the sidewalk and 50 yards from my back door/deck to the fence (and then a golf course fairway), a rifle does make sense for me. Since there is not likely to be an invasion to utilize my M1A and there are not any big bears in Oklahoma (but I hear there are flying monkeys like in the Wizard of Oz), the gun I would grab if stuff hit the fan and I needed to work outside would be my Winchester Trapper in 44 magnum. Works great in combination with the S&W 629.
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Heres my approach:
Downstairs- 9mm Glock 26 with 10 rd mag and backup 17 rd mag
Nightstand (Upstairs)- 9mm Glock 17 with 33 rd mag, flashlight, and backup 10 rd mag.
My Hunker down corner- Benelli 12 ga with OO buckshot
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Well I think were all off topic here. It really depends on your particular abode. Some may opt for a hand gun, others a shotgun. Some for full load others for frangible. If we want to keep this thread going lets be more specific as to type of dwelling. Construction, proximity to neighbors and things like that.
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Well I think were all off topic here. It really depends on your particular abode. Some may opt for a hand gun, others a shotgun. Some for full load others for frangible. If we want to keep this thread going lets be more specific as to type of dwelling. Construction, proximity to neighbors and things like that.
Good point, Ron J Makes the observation that he has open distances around his home, on a differant thread (Tactical Carbine I think) I said that for Urban areas with close neighbors, such as housing developments and apartments I feel a rifle is probably the WORST possible choice for home defense because of the probability that even if EVERY shot you fire is a hit you are almost garunteed to get over penetration, unless you are using something like the Barnes Varmint Grenade . My nearest nieghbor is on the other side of my living room wall the only other direction I would be shooting in the event of a home invasion, I have another neighbor within 20 feet although through several walls. Therefor the AK stays in its case, and I rely on my .45 loaded with standard velocity 230 gr hollow points,hoping the heavy slow expanding bullet will lose enough energy that it will not harm anyone I don't intend to harm. I DO NOT think this is the BEST choice for this location, that would probably be a shotgun with 1 beanbag and then 7 1/2 shot. The beanbag for the Drunk who declares "You won't shoot me!" (Yes I will ;D ) and the birdshot will not spread in a 10 ft room so will hit like a slug but not have enough energy for any INDIVIDUAL pellet to penetrate the Lathe and plaster walls. Thats My opinion FOR MY LOCATION, , what do you all think, Have you put thought into whats on the other side of your walls and what they are made of ?
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Watched the Rob Pincus DVD from the Valhalla Tactical Training facility in CO, and he shot a variety of handgun and shotgun loads through sheetrock, and than simulated room, hallway, adjoining room, with standard construction material.
Shotgun result: Tombogan is correct, 7 1/2 shot indoors is a downright nasty SD round with very little chance of overpenetration for close neighbors, children, etc,... Video was very good to see and evaluate.
Handgun result: Somewhat mixed, from the .38 JHP to a .45 all do penetrate through 2 walls, the big HOWEVER, moment was NO bad guy taking the shot first. I'm sure the result would be different if this was applied, but if there were a miss, dark, loud, adrenaline,fear;..., valid factors, it is a consideration.
As a "nightstand weapon" I use a 110 gr. Winchester .357 JHP. light bullet and neighbors are not too close., and I have a 24 year old home with cedar siding, and sheetrock. Rem 870 (worst case scenario) staggered rounds, 3 of #7 shot, 3 of tactical 9 pellet buckshot. And my .45 can be made available with Ranger ammo in about 3 seconds, "Light Sleeper"
Just my .02 cents. pre tax, .000001 after. ;)
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Hi Power 9mm, tac flashlight, and a 'lick-'em-to-death Labrador! ;D
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I use hanguns only and recommend .45s autos. And .357 revolvers for people who aren't willing to learn how to handle an auto. I used to use a 12 gauge Mossberg BullPup a long time ago. #4 Buck is the largest shot I would ever consider for a shotgun in the home. Any rifle in the home is too long to handle, and so are shotguns, except the bullpup which is way too heavy. The only thing left is handguns. A 1911 with a 10-round mag will stop most any gang of invaders. The newer models with a flashlight mounted are perfect. You can see what you're aiming at and the extra weight up front dampens the recoil.
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I use hanguns only and recommend .45s autos. And .357 revolvers for people who aren't willing to learn how to handle an auto. I used to use a 12 gauge Mossberg BullPup a long time ago. #4 Buck is the largest shot I would ever consider for a shotgun in the home. Any rifle in the home is too long to handle, and so are shotguns, except the bullpup which is way too heavy. The only thing left is handguns. A 1911 with a 10-round mag will stop most any gang of invaders. The newer models with a flashlight mounted are perfect. You can see what you're aiming at and the extra weight up front dampens the recoil.
My 2 favorite pistols. I remember handling a Mossberg bullpup"back in the day" seemed like it would have been like shooting a suitcase. I see you say "used to" was it as bulky and clunky as it seemed ? If I remember correctly, wasn't it based on the Mossberg 500 ?
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My first choice is a handgun. For someone who knows diddly about them I would suggest a 4" .357 Magnum like a Ruger GP-100. But since I know more about how guns work I use a .45 auto. I have 9 rounds in the mag and none in the chamber. It's very safe in that condition, but it only takes a moment to rack the slide to make it ready to fire. After handguns I would choose a 20 or 12 gauge shotgun with an 18" barrel, loaded with no smaller than #4 birdshot and no larger than #4 Buck. After shotguns I would choose a pistol caliber carbine, and a high-power rifle as my last choice. Any shot I take is likely to be 10 feet or less. If I have to I'll just point and shoot. You have to practice with whatever gun you choose until you can almost shoot it with your eyes closed and hit a man sized target.
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My 2 favorite pistols. I remember handling a Mossberg bullpup"back in the day" seemed like it would have been like shooting a suitcase. I see you say "used to" was it as bulky and clunky as it seemed ? If I remember correctly, wasn't it based on the Mossberg 500 ?
I didn't realize I already posted to this thread 2 months ago. Yep, it was a M 500 wrapped up in a couple of pounds of plastic with a bad trigger pull. It was bulky and cliunky, but mine was the shorter 6-shot version and would fit sideways through a doorway. It was as short as a pistol gripped shotgun but balanced enough to fire one-handed. If it was an automatic like the old High Standard HS10 I would have kept it. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/SH26-E.HTM
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Have I ever posted to this thread before?
Upstairs
• Sig 226 9mm/LaserGrips/SureFire X200 weapons light/Hornady TAPs
• Winchester 94 Trapper .44 Magnum rifle/240 gr JHPs
• Remington 870 VangComp/LE buckshot in the tube with LE slugs on the gun
Downstairs
• S&W M&P AR-15/SureFire Weapon light/30 round magazines
• Assorted handguns, always including a J-frame for easy access
Michael B
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Puma 92 .357 127gr JSP Always by my bed.
On the nightstand (rightnow) (I have ritual everynight to get ready and I cant sleep unless these are all in place before I sleep)
Kimber Desert Warrior.
1 8 round Mag
Mini Mag (fresh Batteries)
4D Maglite also.
Glock 19 in miami Classic hanging from a hanger next to Bug Out Bag
Mags in Drawers around house. For both 9mm and .45
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Have I ever posted to this thread before?
Upstairs
• Sig 226 9mm/LaserGrips/SureFire X200 weapons light/Hornady TAPs
• Winchester 94 Trapper .44 Magnum rifle/240 gr JHPs
• Remington 870 VangComp/LE buckshot in the tube with LE slugs on the gun
Downstairs
• S&W M&P AR-15/SureFire Weapon light/30 round magazines
• Assorted handguns, always including a J-frame for easy access
Michael B
Clinging to your guns Mr. Bane? ;D
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Yes! And I'm proud to say I'm also bitter (not sure about what, but I'm sure Messiah Obama will let me know soon...). I'm thinking of keeping the Super Shorty 870 by the bed, too, in case of dinosaur attacks...LOL!
mb
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Here we usually start with something like that then switch to buckshot but in the country side buckshot first. ;D
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Flashball4483.jpg)
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Have I ever posted to this thread before?
Upstairs
• Sig 226 9mm/LaserGrips/SureFire X200 weapons light/Hornady TAPs
• Winchester 94 Trapper .44 Magnum rifle/240 gr JHPs
• Remington 870 VangComp/LE buckshot in the tube with LE slugs on the gun
Downstairs
• S&W M&P AR-15/SureFire Weapon light/30 round magazines
• Assorted handguns, always including a J-frame for easy access
Michael B
Yeah you have, but your inventory of defense guns changes so much that we need an update from you every 2 or 3 weeks. ;D
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Here we usually start with something like that then switch to buckshot but in the country side buckshot first. ;D
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Flashball4483.jpg)
Edmond, I don't recall seeing that launcher in the US. What is it? If I could, I'd sure have one, but I doubt it would pass the Federal import ban.
Mac.
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It is a less than lethal weapon (but don't shoot at the head at short distance) the projectile is a rubber ball, its initial diameter is 44 mm and it expands to 83 mm on impact with a power corresponding roughly to a .38 Special round, no perforation. It can be bought freely and used for home defense.
Another version is reserved to LE and is an Over/Under made of alloy using more powerful rounds with thick aluminium case and special rubber projectiles that contain CS powder and or visible/invisible marking matérial.
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Not available in the US, right?
Mac.
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Right. looks like you don't have anything like that in US. http://www.flash-ball.com/pages-us/i_fb_tech.htm
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Here we usually start with something like that then switch to buckshot but in the country side buckshot first. ;D
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Flashball4483.jpg)
Heres the video on that thing. The 1:49 mark shows a guy getting shot with it:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WD80E6p_wQA
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I did not understand a word they said until the first guy got shot with it ;D That was ALL easy to under stand ;D
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I have 2 37mm flareguns, a pistol and an M203 look alike. If you use ANY ammo besides flares and smoke bombs that changes it from a non-gun to a destructive device. Too bad we can't use bean bags and such. I saw a picture of someone who had a 25mm or 26.5mm flaregun with 8" or so of 12 gauge barrel fitted into it, and he carried it in a hip holster. Probably some dictator. :) For a single shot it would be an awesome SD pistol.