The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on February 10, 2011, 06:43:45 AM
-
I'm sorry, but I can see where this is all headed. Enough so that I'm going to stick my neck out and make a prediction. You guys chime in with your opinions, and we'll see how this all plays out.
My prediction is very pessimistic. I think the "Muslim Brotherhood" is already well on their way to taking over the government there. It's only a matter of time. These people are as ruthless of a bunch as anyone could imagine. Unlike the way the liberal media plays these people up to be, "just a swell bunch of guys wanting their religious freedom". They are bloodthirsty, and they HATE Christians.
We and Israel are going to wind up with yet another enemy in the Middle East who hates our guts, and wants nothing more than to see us annihilated. The libtards will play this down all the way. Hussein will do as he always does, NOTHING. He'll "go with the flow", which translated means he'll risk nothing and let us wind up in a far worse place than we were before they started chomping on Mubarak's ass. Either way were screwed. I hope I'm wrong, but based on the fact that each day Hussein's Presidency gets a little bit worse, all of this stands to reason. Plus the fact Hussein is pro muslim, regardless of what the press, and media in general report him to be. Bill T.
-
jimmy carter V2.0
-
Bill, you may be being too optimistic. The Saudis have advised Odamna not to do anything to hasten Mubarak's departure. The king of Saudi Arabia is a fairly close personal friend to good old Hosni, and the king has offered to replace any American foreign aid that may be taken away. That amounts to $1.6 billion/year, or as they say in Saudi Arabia, chump change. They know he's on his way out, but they don't want him to hurry. (That may be the greatest wisdom in this whole power play.)
The Muslim Brotherhood has stated that they do not support the establishment of a religious government, or theocracy in Egypt. But three important things need to be noted here: 1, according to the Q'ran it is perfectly alright to lie to infidels to advance the faith; 2, the MB has done everything in their power for years to undermine any democratic advances made by the Mubarak government; and 3, they are the extremists who recently bombed a Coptic Christian church, and who have historically beaten and killed Coptics whenever they get the chance. This is not the moderate group portrayed in the press.
Additionally, since Tunisia was able to overthrow their government, Jordan has faced similar problems, as have Algeria and even Saudi Arabia. When Egypt and Mubarak's government fall to this crop of demonstrators, that will add impetus to surrounding nations to toss off their harnesses. That will result in the kind of chaos we saw so many years ago in Iran when the Shaw was deposed. It also resulted in the Ayotollah taking charge--and we all know how well that worked out.
So, what I see is this... Egypt falls and establishes a theocratic government. Subsequently, Tunesia, Algeria, Libya, Saudi, Syria, Jordan and the Sudan become theocracies (no particular order there, but the speed of change will increase as each nation falls, and I expect it to be complete before the end of 2012). At that point, Israel will be the sole friendly in the entire Mid-East.
Now, without getting all spooky religious, this situation looks suspiciously like what the Book of Revelation talks about: you know, where the lion of Judea and eagle unite to fight the bear in the final battle.
At the very least, we and our Israeli friends are in for a very rough time. And the current resident of the WH is encouraging the players.
Keep supplies on hand and your powder dry. Tough times are coming.
-
Sadly, we do not learn the lessons of history. And this time, it's not even ANCIENT history that should have taught us something. THis entire debacle in Egypt is unfolding just like 1970's Iran. Anybody else remember THAT fiasco?
-
Carter 2.0 = Iran 2.0.
We had better take the foreign aid that we are giving Egypt and give it to Israel so they can buy more weapons from us - they are going to need them.
-
Revelation coming true in 2012 :o :o :o
Yeah, it is possible. Actually not the worst case scenerio.
-
Bill, you may be being too optimistic. The Saudis have advised Odamna not to do anything to hasten Mubarak's departure. The king of Saudi Arabia is a fairly close personal friend to good old Hosni, and the king has offered to replace any American foreign aid that may be taken away. That amounts to $1.6 billion/year, or as they say in Saudi Arabia, chump change. They know he's on his way out, but they don't want him to hurry. (That may be the greatest wisdom in this whole power play.)
The Muslim Brotherhood has stated that they do not support the establishment of a religious government, or theocracy in Egypt. But three important things need to be noted here: 1, according to the Q'ran it is perfectly alright to lie to infidels to advance the faith; 2, the MB has done everything in their power for years to undermine any democratic advances made by the Mubarak government; and 3, they are the extremists who recently bombed a Coptic Christian church, and who have historically beaten and killed Coptics whenever they get the chance. This is not the moderate group portrayed in the press.
Additionally, since Tunisia was able to overthrow their government, Jordan has faced similar problems, as have Algeria and even Saudi Arabia. When Egypt and Mubarak's government fall to this crop of demonstrators, that will add impetus to surrounding nations to toss off their harnesses. That will result in the kind of chaos we saw so many years ago in Iran when the Shaw was deposed. It also resulted in the Ayotollah taking charge--and we all know how well that worked out.
So, what I see is this... Egypt falls and establishes a theocratic government. Subsequently, Tunesia, Algeria, Libya, Saudi, Syria, Jordan and the Sudan become theocracies (no particular order there, but the speed of change will increase as each nation falls, and I expect it to be complete before the end of 2012). At that point, Israel will be the sole friendly in the entire Mid-East.
Now, without getting all spooky religious, this situation looks suspiciously like what the Book of Revelation talks about: you know, where the lion of Judea and eagle unite to fight the bear in the final battle.
At the very least, we and our Israeli friends are in for a very rough time. And the current resident of the WH is encouraging the players.
Keep supplies on hand and your powder dry. Tough times are coming.
We are getting into "nitpicking " details here that SHOULD be being discussed in Foggy Bottom, but here goes.
While I agree that the MB are bad guys, and bad for both Israel, and us, I disagree with the prediction of theocracy.
The purpose of the Muslim Brotherhood has never in 80+ years been "Islamist", but instead, the advancement of secular, corrupt, dictatorship. Originally they were formed as the muscle of the "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" in his struggle for power after the collapse of the Ottoman empire. While he cloaked his motives by using the MB to attack Jews, and instigate anti Zionist riots, they were more handy for terrorizing fellow Arab leaders. It was the MB that assassinated Abdullah I, the first King of Jordan.
So if they do come out on top it is more likely we will see an anti western Cleptocracy like Saddam's Iraq, or Nasser's Egypt than the type of Islamist fanatics that gained power in Iran.
Their attacks on Copt's and tourists are more a form of smokescreen, hiding their agenda of overthrowing the current Govt to get their own snouts in the trough rather than any set ideological principles. If the Coptic Christians had any power to advance the MB's aim of getting their fingers into the till there would not be any attacks on them, but since they get their asses handed to them every time they go up against Israel they need a relatively powerless scape goat and the Coptic Christians provide one.
-
I hate to agree with Bill on this one, just because I don't want to see it happen, but cannot bury my head in the sand. I think that you are absolutely right. What I fear is that if this unfolds quickly, with BHO still in office, Israel will have to stand alone. Fortunately they still have the testicular fortitude to do what is necessary. Hopefully we can get our disastrous regime voted out before this all comes to pass. It would be comforting to have a president with a spine again. Until then Crusader is right. It's up to us to do what we can to be ready to ensure that when sh!t goes down, our nation will survive.
-
It will most likely resolve itself well before the end of the month. However, Israel will not have to stand alone. Jordan may or may not be able to openly support them, most likely not, but behind the scenes they will work like crazy to oppose the MB. They have just as much reason, if not more, to hate the MB than Israel does.
-
I can also see a possible war on the Malabar Front in '12, with the current POTUS calling a state of emergency and suspending elections...
That would be worst-case in my mind.
-
With no real leader to take over, I see either the military filling in the void, or a civil war leading to egypt being divided into territorial nation states.
-
They're predicting a blood bath tomorrow over there. This will get a whole lot more ugly before it gets any better, if it ever does. Bill T.
-
I'm headed for the Suez canal at this moment. I'll let you guys know if I see anything of interest. we are carrying a security team this time, so we should be ok. but then, last time Egypt went ape shit, they sank a bunch of ships in the canal to stop traffic. stay safe everyone.... ;D
deepwater
-
With no real leader to take over, I see either the military filling in the void, or a civil war leading to egypt being divided into territorial nation states.
You need to pay attention to both the news, and history.
Mubarak has already said he will transfer power to the VP, (newly appointed) The Army has stated that their responsibility is to the survival of the Nation.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/10/egypt-unrest-mubarak-may-address-nation-party-chief-says/
Egypt will not break up, they have been a unified society for several thousand years. That will not change overnight , especially when none of the issues involved vary from region to region. ::)
-
All the more reason to NEVER give up any fight for OUR Right To Bear Arms. The Brits scoffed at farmers and merchants, in the New World, that took up arms against the Mighty Empire.
The future generations around the World never forgot. The Japanese remembered that an invasion of mainland America would NEVER work because of an armed (mostly) citizenry.
The Muslims that wish us harm have to know this. AND THAT'S GOOD. Including the Marxist, Code Pink, Van Jones, radical Leftists that are also calling for "revolution"....
Be careful what you wish for.
We're NOT disarmed like the rest of the world.
Grampa's rule number 36:
"Never poke a Wolverine with a stick, unless you want your balls ripped off."
-
twyacht:
They learned, that is why they are rotting us from the inside out :'(
-
They are all just following their plan. The call for sharia law world wide, no matter how long it takes. Iran was a test to see if it could work. The conditions weren't right in the rest of the Middle East until now. It could all go that way pretty easily. Get the younger generation pissed off enough to do the work then have the government overthrown. Once that's complete put someone in power that appeases the masses just enough to completely ursurp power. On to the next country. Europe will be next since they've already started. Look at France last year with the retirement issue. Foment "revolution" however you can.
Israel will go pre-emptive and BHO will hesitate and sell them out. China will see that we won't do anything and take Taiwan. NK goes South. Nothing bad ;D
-
You need to pay attention to both the news, and history.
Mubarak has already said he will transfer power to the VP, (newly appointed) The Army has stated that their responsibility is to the survival of the Nation.
I've been watching this on TV and reading about it on the net for many hours so I think I have a firm grasp of what's going on here.
It lloks like the different news sources are proving my thought correct.
The Korean Herald Analys states it was a military coup after Mubarak's "I ain't goin'." speech.
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110212000017 (http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110212000017)
You say the newly installed VP is in charge. I don't think so. Omar Suleiman seems to be very quiet right now while the PM is pulling the strings.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=207903 (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=207903)
Do the Egyptians trust the PM? No.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/11/egypt.tantawi.profile/index.html?hpt=T1 (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/11/egypt.tantawi.profile/index.html?hpt=T1)
Is there concern that the Muslim Brotherhood will come in and take over? Yes.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/02/11/egypts-mubarak-whats/ (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/02/11/egypts-mubarak-whats/)
And if you look, you will see that 35% of Fox readers actually agree with the veiwpoint of the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12438007 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12438007)
History has show us that once a powerful person in charge leaves abruptly, there is a void that must quickly be filled by another powerful leader.
The reports have shown that during the protests, No leader has emerged from the people to lead them. It is also stated in the reports listed that the Egyptiansd do not trust the PM and thus leaves roomn for another round of protests.
The Muslim Brotherhood has been ousted for decades now and is looking to get back in power of some form, and we all know that Iran would love to put in a puppet group like Hezbola to squeeze Israel from both sides.
Our own history has shown that after a major event like this, corruption runs rampant. (Just look at what happened after our civil war)
If these different groups get power in different areas without being controled by a strong leader chosen by the people, the country will shatter. It is as simple as seeing one group get something the others don't.
If the leader is weak or doesn't have the funds needed, then small tribes, like those in Packistan, will only give lip service to the leader while doing whatever their political/religious agenda calls for.
This situation demands more observation to see what really happens. I suggest to keep up on the news and never assume anything.
-
So, at the moment it appears that the Egyptian military is fully in charge. No big surprise there. Actually could be a very good thing if they hold to their promise to convert to civilian rule. It won't be done by September, but everything should be in place for a peaceful transition within the next 12 months.
Meanwhile, Algeria is facing riots in the streets.
Saudi has just witnessed the formation of its first ever political party.
Yemin is seeing riots and mobs of protestors.
Syria is making concessions like they were running a tobacco auction.
And Jordan is facing all kinds of difficulties. I predict the government will fall within the next 90-120 days.
The dominos will fall with increasing speed and the Muslim Brotherhood will fight to establish a caliphate from the Middle-East to Indonesia.
The UGLY has just begun.
-
So, at the moment it appears that the Egyptian military is fully in charge. No big surprise there. Actually could be a very good thing if they hold to their promise to convert to civilian rule. It won't be done by September, but everything should be in place for a peaceful transition within the next 12 months.
Meanwhile, Algeria is facing riots in the streets.
Saudi has just witnessed the formation of its first ever political party.
Yemin is seeing riots and mobs of protestors.
Syria is making concessions like they were running a tobacco auction.
And Jordan is facing all kinds of difficulties. I predict the government will fall within the next 90-120 days.
The dominos will fall with increasing speed and the Muslim Brotherhood will fight to establish a caliphate from the Middle-East to Indonesia.
The UGLY has just begun.
This might not be a bad thing Rabbit. I feel bad for Jordan, it has been an ally, gotten the dirty end of the stick in the Israeli-Palestininan conflict and its king is a US citizen (his mother was American). Still, having Islamacists take control of the middle east is not necessarily a bad thing. I am on record here as not being W's number one fan. Here is my foremost reason. After 9/11 he launched a "war on terrorism". WTF is that? Its like the Brits launching a "war on airplanes" during the Blitz. We are not at war with terrorism. We are at war with fundamentalist Islam. Lets just come out and say it. The middle east going over to the Muslim Brotherhood gives us a reason to stop tiptoeing politely aroun the elephant in the room and will force Europe to rediscover its balls. They are already gettinfg tired of unassimilated muslim "refugeees". This might be the kick start required to get the west to stop the PC self flagellation and regrow a spine. The muslims are unapologetic about what they believe, and good for them. I respect honesty and conviction. I just think its time we started doing the same and may the best man win. This might be wishfull thinking, but here's hoping that if the battle lines are clealy drawn that the old alliances will re form, and do so with conviction..
FQ13
-
Have a safe trip Deepwater.
I think we are looking at some serious issues ahead as foreign policy is ignored by those in charge who are burying their heads in the sand and not dealing with the muslim extremism. I see our children and children's children dealing with these religious idiots if they do not stop them in their tracks now...
-
Well the military is in charge, and I just read that they have suspended the Egyptian parliment and constitution (such as they were). The People of Egypt are ecstatic.
Isn't there something about the road to hell being paved with good intentions?
-
CJ, Where is your faith in "Hope and Change" ? ;D
-
CJ, Where is your faith in "Hope and Change" ? ;D
Been there, done that. keep the change.
-
Remember the society that is under control of the military. They are not like us Infidel/Americans who wouldn't tolerate a military state, they are a society, just like Iraq was, that was brought up under the thumb of stiff, dictatorial rule.
For them, the military is a good thing. It IS the law of the land that has a finite amount of tolerance. They should be so lucky as the military, is granting future elections for new leadership.
History, has proven otherwise.
Plus, they have a large amount of OUR hardware, and the citizens know it....Although the pics I've seen, still have the foot soldier with an AK.... ::)
-
They are still using AK's because there is no money for us in giving them rifles in the Aid Packages. They get Patrol boats, Air defense systems, and stuff like that. You all seem to think about $1.5 Billion like it was going into your gun safe. Wake up, That much money would fill a good size warehouse.
http://www.reachingcriticalwill.org/corporate/dd/afghanmil.html
l F-14 Tomcat
This fighter plane has been performing daily strikes against Afghanistan.
Contractor: Northrop Grumman Aerospace Corporation
Unit Cost: $38 million
l F-15 Eagle
All weather and extremely maneuverable, this tactical fighter is designed for aerial combat. Its bombing missions in Afghanistan cost about $4,500 an hour(5).
Contractor: McDonnell Douglas Corp. (now part of Boeing)
Unit Cost: $38 million
l F-15E Strike Eagle
A dual-role fighter designed to perform air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, this plane is designed to fight at low altitude, day or night, and in inclement weather.
Builder: McDonnell Douglas Corp. (now part of Boeing)
Unit cost: $31.1 million
l F-16 Fighting Falcon
A compact, multi-role fighter, this aircraft is designed for air-to-air combat and air-to-surface attack. Since Operation Enduring Freedom began, the F-16 has been sold to Oman, which had waited 15 years for the green light on its order of 12 planes (6) . Israel also doubled its order of F-16s to 102 in October, a sale worth more than $2 billion to Lockheed Martin (7).
Builder: Lockheed Martin Corp.
Unit cost: F-16A/B , $30.1 million
F-16C/D, $34.3 million (2000 dollars)
l UH-60 Black Hawk
In 1993, in Somalia a Black Hawk helicopter was shot down and the 18 U.S. soldiers aboard were killed. Despite this, the Black Hawk remains a workhorse of the Army helicopter fleet, used for multiple jobs such as taking commandos to their targets and giving officers an airborne command center. In Afghanistan in early October, a Black Hawk flown by Special Operations Forces on their way to a mission crashed in Pakistan (10).
Contractor: Sikorsky
Unit Cost: $11 million
l MH-53J/M Pave Low
This heavy-duty helicopter is capable of flying long distances. Special Operations Forces use it. Thus far, one Pave Low helicopter has crashed in bad weather in Afghanistan (11).
Builder: Sikorsky
Unit Cost: $40 million
l AH-64 Apache
This helicopter’s first mission was "Operation Just Cause," the 1989 raid on Panama. During the initial attack, six helicopters broke down, their electronics systems too sensitive for the Central American humidity, according to a post-mission review by congressional investigators (12).
The Apache is capable of carrying 16 Hellfire anti-tank missiles, 76 Hydra anti- personnel rockets, and 1,200 rounds of armor-piercing ammo. The Boeing Company delivered 937 AH-64A Apaches- 821 to the U.S. Army and 116 to international customers, including Egypt, Greece, Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates- between 1984 and 1997 (13).
Contractor: Boeing
Unit Cost: $14. 5 million
l AH-1W Super Cobra Helicopter
An earlier version of this attack helicopter logged more than a million flight hours in Vietnam (14). In Afghanistan, the helicopters helped the Marines establish a forward operating base.
Manufacturer: Bell Helicopter Textron
Unit Cost: $10.7 million
l OH-58D Kiowa Warrior
This Scout Helicopter performs reconnaissance, security, command and control and targeting.
Contractor: Bell Helicopter
Cost:
‹ REFUELING, RECONNAISSANCE AND DRONES
l C-130 Hercules
This enormous and powerful plane transports troops and equipment, and is able to land on dirt runways. More than 2,200 C-130s have been sold to 60 nations around the world.
Contractor: Lockheed Martin
Unit Cost: C-130E, $11.9 million
C-130H, $30.1 million
C-130J, $48.5 million (FY 1998 constant dollars)
l E-3 Sentry (AWACS)
An airborne warning and control system (AWACS), this aircraft provides all-weather surveillance, command, control and communications.
Contractor: Boeing
Unit Cost: Approximately $300 million
l AGM-114 Hellfire Missile
Short-range, laser-guided, air-to-surface missile. The Hellfire missile is used on the Army Apache and Marine Corps Super Cobra helicopters. The unmanned Predator drone is also armed with Hellfire missiles.
Contractor: Lockheed Martin
Unit Cost: $40,000 (18).
l M-220 TOW Anti-Tank Missile
This Guided missile weapon system is known for its "fire and forget" capabilities. Current versions can penetrate more than 30 inches of armor and launch 3 missiles in 90 seconds.
Manufacturer: Raytheon
Unit Replacement Cost: $180,000 (19)
l Javelin Anti-Tank Missile
Javelin is a portable antitank weapon. It is shoulder-fired and can also be installed on vehicles.
Contractor: Raytheon/Lockheed Martin JAVELIN Joint Venture.
Unit Cost: Approximately $100,000
l CBU-87 Cluster Bomb
The United States has dropped about 600 cluster bombs since the war in Afghanistan began (29). Cluster bombs are 1,000-pound munitions that break into 202 bomblets. Each bomblet breaks into 300 fragments of steel. The fragments can covers a football field. The bombs are used against 'soft targets,' meaning people. Unexploded munitions are a concern because the bomblets are bright yellow and attractive to children".(30).
Manufacturer: Alliant Techsystems
Unit Cost: about $14,000 (31)
l CBU-89 Cluster Bomb
CBU-89 Gator
The U.S. CBU-89/B is the latest cluster bomb in the family of scatterable mines (32). The dispenser holds 72 anti-armor mines and 22 anti-personnel mines. These mines arm immediately upon impact. The GATOR has two integrated kill mechanisms, a magnetic influence fuze to sense armor, and deployed trip wires that activate when personnel walk on or disturb it (33).
Manufacturer: Alliant Techsystems
Unit Cost: about $40,000 (34)
‹ SYSTEMS POTENTIALLY BEING USED BY THE U.S.
l AGM-65 Maverick
This tactical, air-to-surface guided missile is designed for close air support, interdiction and defense suppression mission.
Contractors: Raytheon
Unit Cost: $17,000 to $110,000
l AGM-88 HARM Missile
This high-speed antiradiation missile (HARM) is an air-to-surface tactical missile designed to seek and destroy enemy radar-equipped air defense systems.
Contractor: Texas Instruments
Unit Cost: $200,000 (35)
l AGM-86C Cruise Missile
The AGM-86B air-launched cruise missiles and AGM-86C conventional air-launched cruise missiles are deployed on B-52 bombers.
Contractor: Boeing
Unit Cost: $1 million (36)
http://www.ask.com/web?l=dis&o=15492&qsrc=2873&q=Cost+of+weapon+systems
This site did not cover things like Coastal defense Sonar systems or Air traffic control systems. But you aren't buying them with sofa change either. That shit adds up.
-
l F-14 Tomcat
This fighter plane has been performing daily strikes against Afghanistan.
Contractor: Northrop Grumman Aerospace Corporation
Unit Cost: $38 million
Not bad for an airplane that was retired five years ago. ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F-14_Tomcat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F-14_Tomcat)
-
Since when are TOW missiles fire and forget? It's Tube-launched Optically-tracked Wire-guided.
-
The F-14 is outdated. What I don't get is why it is the only platform to launch the phoenix air to air missile. The damn thing has a range of 90 miles. :o That is a game changer if ever there was one. Why can't the F-18s load them (and yes I know, the nose of the F-14 is basically a giant radar), still, you'd think we would have updated the missle with the the leaps and bounds in software. :P
Anyway, I agree with the larger point. Most of the military aid we have given to client states in the past has gone to crap they don't need. They buy Ferraris when what they need is an F-150. Its good for General Dynamics and Pratt and Whitney, but not so good for our strategic interests or regional stability. Hell, most of our clients would be better served with Hueys, M113s and AKs than Blackhawks, ARs and Bradleys, but thats not the way the game is played. :-\
FQ13
-
I'm a little rusty on the history since most of it came from the History Channel and I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I think providing these countries with big ticket items is a way of providing aid while hedging our bets. When the Afghanies were fighting Soviets, we provided them supplies, small arms, handheld rockets, etcs. Now, we're fighting against those same weapons. On the other hand, we provided Iran with a fleet of jets. They became our enemy and lost technical support, parts, and aid. Iran now has a fleet of brand new, useless, jets. Provide a country with jets while they're on our side; if they flip, they still have the jets, but can't do anything with them.
-
We provided the Afghans with tens of thousands of Chinese AK's and RPG's for use against the Soviets. (So much for "Socialist Brotherhood" ;D )
What we provided to Iran were those same F-14's that FQ is so enamoured of. ;D
Most have been grounded for over 20 years since the only way to get parts was on the Black market, and once they were retired that source dried up.
FQ, to answer your question about the Pheonix, After it was introduced incidents like the airliner shot down by the USS Vincennes led to a change in engagement rules requiring visual ID of targets. That made the big, heavy Pheonix pretty much a waste of payload since its biggest advantage could no longer be used. Also, the AIM 9 series had a much better hit ratio, was smaller and much lighter.
-
If any of you think for a minute that Iranian’s don't have the know how to employ the weapons systems we gave them , you sirs are kidding yourself. Sure the Grumman reps disabled sections of the radar and other systems as they left but the Iranians reverse engineered the systems and got them operational again. Collectively we underestimate thier technical ability, like thy're hillbillies. Yes, the number of flyable aircraft is reduced but they are still out there. They used teh Tomcats as mini-AWACs against the Iraqis the whole time.
BTW every couple years you hear of an arrest of someone more than willing to sell Irianian sources Tomcat parts from the Boneyard. What they can't buy the manufacture themselves, or use parts they can get to replace it. They have a lot of European/Russian equipment that they have figured out how to shoe horn into American F-4s, F-14s and other equipment.
The problem with the Phoenix is it's large and fairly unsophisticated by todays standards. It was designed to be used against bomber formations outside of cruise missile range. We don't fight those wars anymore (although we should still have the capability too, but that's another thread). The Tomcat could carry 6 AIM-45 and 2 AIM-9s for a long range combat load. When they took them off the ship they were carrying 2 AIM-9 and 6 AIM-7/AIM-120 . A Super Hornet can carry 2 AIM-9 and 12 AIM-120 for a strictly air defense role. Legacy Hornets 2 AIM-9, 6 AIM-120.
-
FQ, to answer your question about the Pheonix, After it was introduced incidents like the airliner shot down by the USS Vincennes led to a change in engagement rules requiring visual ID of targets. That made the big, heavy Pheonix pretty much a waste of payload since its biggest advantage could no longer be used. Also, the AIM 9 series had a much better hit ratio, was smaller and much lighter.
You are applying our ROE's and morals to them. Potentially deadly mistake.
Just like MB's discussions on violent criminal actors or applying logic to chaos systems...
-
You are applying our ROE's and morals to them. Potentially deadly mistake.
Just like MB's discussions on violent criminal actors or applying logic to chaos systems...
No, I'm applying our ROE to us, the question was "why didn't WE mount the Phoenix on any other aircraft".
-
Anybody else notice what is happening in Iran at the moment?
This Egyptian/Tunisian thing seems to be catching on. Watch the dominoes fall. See the mullahs use them like Lego's to build their caliphate. The great mass of Middle-East fecal material is about to collide with the rotating air oscillation system. It's going to get a bit messy.
If you can't afford much more, start buying dry beans and rice in 5-gallon nitrogen purged buckets. They'll provide carbs and protein as well as enough fiber to keep you mooooving.
-
I posted a thread asking if any one thought Obummer would support the voice of those people as well.
It was pure sarcasm since we all know that POS only supports those who, like him and his wife, hate America.
-
Frankly this mess is as big threat to Iran as anybody else. They almost had a revolution a few years back. They are trying desperatley to stay ahead of it by claiiming its modeled after the Iranian revolution. Thats a bunch BS and the Iranians know it. They have the same problesms everyone else over there does. A young popu;ation, high unemployment a corrupt regime led by brutal old farts that no one belives any more. Its as likely to happen in Tehran as in Cairo, it will just be a lot bloodier if it does.
FQ13
-
Anybody else notice what is happening in Iran at the moment?
This Egyptian/Tunisian thing seems to be catching on. Watch the dominoes fall. See the mullahs use them like Lego's to build their caliphate. The great mass of Middle-East fecal material is about to collide with the rotating air oscillation system. It's going to get a bit messy.
If you can't afford much more, start buying dry beans and rice in 5-gallon nitrogen purged buckets. They'll provide carbs and protein as well as enough fiber to keep you mooooving.
I will translate for those who might not be able to decipher Crusaders well thought out statement.
1.) The ragheads are getting restless worldwide.
2.) What happened in Egypt is likely to happen in other predominately raghead countries where the bulk of the younger population would rather buy CD's and wear designer jeans, rather than be flopping on their knees, listening to that guy play that wire while they pray instead of chasing babes.
3.) The $h!t is about to hit the fan, big time!
4.) If you are poor, stock up on beans and rice so you'll be able to $h!t into the fan at the proper time! ;D Bill T.
-
Good translation. 8)
-
Just don't forget band aids in case your arse gets a little to close to said fan.
-
Check out the Fox News start page this morning.
http://www.foxnews.com/
It reads like a who's who of Arab countries. All of them with protests! Yemen, Bahrain, Libya, Iran. This is going to get violent and very ugly. It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. I hope they all kill each other. Bill T.
-
Billt, I didn't know you spoke such fluent Crusader. You got it zackley right!
Here's some more to watch out for...
Bahrain is the home of our 5th Fleet. The riotous mobs have started ringing the bells there, too. That could put a major kink in our ability to deploy in that part of the world.
And here's a little known bit of trivia for you all... Do you know why the ragheads wear those robes??? 'Cause the sound of a zipper will spook a goat for a five-mile radius.
Keep your powder dry, boys, it's agonna get hot.
-
Another thing, Khadaffi has been a willing partner in the War against Muslim terrorists, he has been sharing intel with the west for years. BUT THE LIBYAN PEOPLE STILL WIDELY SUPPORT GROUPS LIKE HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH.
These " popular" uprisings (except in Iran ) are more bad than good.
-
All of Hillary and Obummer's chest beating about democratic change in the Middle East is a crock of $h!t. Yes the countries in question are protesting and want democracy but they have only sealed thier own fate. The current government, while corrupt and a dictatorsihp, was realitively stable and wasn't doing a lot of "cross border" efforts. Now they have the military in charge, supposedly t maintain stability to allow for elections. How many of those elections will actually happen? If they do, will the elected leader actually be in another election or will it be "elected for life" like the last few have been?
CENTCOM os starting to sweat. Not only is 5th Fleet in Bahrain but a large stockpile of weapons in case something happens anywhere on that side of the world is there too.