The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: gunman42782 on April 11, 2011, 05:19:31 AM
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/04/11/the-ruger-1911-photo-leaked/
I hope this is true!
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I love my Rugers and collect them like stamps. BUT! I can't see myself buying one at the pricepoint that they mention. 500-600 and I'm in with the quickness.
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Well, thats a funny looking Kel-Tec
*Joke
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http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/04/ruger-1911.html
I know it was posted in the gallery, just giving it a header in the Handgun Section.
Monday, April 11, 2011
Ruger 1911?
There have been rumors of a Ruger 1911 floating around the gun forums since at least 2007 according to a quick Google search. Nothing has come of those rumors. That is, until now.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/ruger_1911tfb-tfb.jpg)
Steve at The Firearm Blog has posted a cover photo from the June 2011 Shooting Times magazine. It features a Ruger 1911 on it. According to his post, the Ruger 1911 is shown in stainless and is similar in appearance to the Remington 1911R1 Enhanced.
My guess is that Ruger had planned to announce the new pistol at the NRA Annual Meeting little more than two weeks from now in Pittsburgh.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/04/11/the-ruger-1911-photo-leaked/
I'll have to check the newsstands for a copy of Shooting Times today. Most magazines these days are on the shelf 1-2 months ahead of their cover date.
Posted by John Richardson at 7:51 AM
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I'm hoping this thread is parody. "At last" another 1911? Look, the 1911 is a fine gun, but they aren't exactly scarce on the ground. Hell Remingtion just introduced one. The only "innovative" one I've seen is Rock Island and that's for it's price and reliability.
Secondly, while I love Ruger, particularly their revolvers, their pistols have never lit the world on fire.
I guess I'd say that I think the shooting world needs a Ruger 1911 about as much as I need a third nipple. ::) ;)
FQ13 who once again asks for something new from a big company. Hell, Crossman has come out with a .357 caliber airgun. That's new. Ditto Kel-tec (or is that Ruger) with a tiny .380. But another mid priced 1911? (looking for the yawn icon).
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Given their recent history on new launches, I'll wait a few years before I even look at one. The market already has a metric butt load of quality 1911s. So unless this has something special (Springfield quality at Rock Island prices), I'll pass.
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I say "at last" for a couple reasons. Number 1, this has been an on-going rumor for 2 or 3 years now. Number 2, the 1911 is my favorite semi-auto handgun of all time, and Ruger has been my favorite gun company. So, to me at least, it is indeed "at last!"
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A 1911 from Ruger wasn't high on my list of "I Wants". If the out the door price goes to between $500 and $700, I might even get one. I guess Ruger is trying to position themselves in the high end market, but I expected more than just being a 1911 "also ran" from them.
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What has Ruger to offer to the game? What differentiates a Ruger 1911 other than their name? Is that strong enough to support sales of this line?
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I say "at last" for a couple reasons. Number 1, this has been an on-going rumor for 2 or 3 years now. Number 2, the 1911 is my favorite semi-auto handgun of all time, and Ruger has been my favorite gun company. So, to me at least, it is indeed "at last!"
If the price is reasonable, a lot of people will buy one just because it has the Ruger name on it. It will be interesting to see what variations they come out with. I'm surprised they didn't come out with one years ago as most of the research and developement has already been done on it. I suspect Ruger will put their own twist to it. I also suspect that Ruger's casting divsion has already been casting 1911 frames for other companies and perhaps because of agreements with those companies were not able to produce their own 1911 untill now.
Hey Quaker, in case you didn't know, in 1949 a new firearms company by the name of Sturm Ruger came out with their standard auto pistol that did light the world on fire. Ruger's P series of pistols, while not winning any beauty contest, is a very durable and reliable pistol.
Now I just can't wait for the Ruger High Power!
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I am just impressed that Michael has been able to keep this secret for over 2 years. ;D
I have a production line SW1911, a Para 14, and a RIA 1911. The nicest 1911 I have ever shot, this includes a Colt, A Sig 1911 and a Nighthawk custom, is the SW 1911 Doug Koenig model. A smooth trigger, it broke like glass.The sights were perfect and just wow.
It is possible to make a nice 1911 across all price points. I am sure that Ruger's 1911 will be every bit as nice as my production SW. The hard work of design and refinement are done. People know what makes this gun work. What remains is for Ruger to produce a series of flawless models. Good luck Ruger.
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Good luck to Ruger as well. Some may ho-hum "another 1911" however consider the design, the elegance of what an otherwise NOT changed design has achieved.
A combat pistol.
A combat proven pistol.
A combat proven pistol requested, to this day, by U.S. troops, over the M9.
An SD pistol.
An SD proven pistol.
A pistol that has stood the test of time.
.45 Ball ammo STILL WORKS.
John Browning made a winner, for our great-grandchildren to enjoy, and hopefully never need. But if called for duty, will still perform..
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/The45.jpg)
My S&W Gold Match, Performance Center "tweaked version"....and it is that good.
;)
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I am just impressed that Michael has been able to keep this secret for over 2 years. ;D
lol NDA's do that to you though
if it is true and someone did not mess up the April Fools date when putting it out there it looks quite good
do you think the 1911 market over saturated??
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IfNow I just can't wait for the Ruger High Power!
Save your pennies and buy a Belgian made original. I'll sell you mine, if you'll buy me a new truck. Scratch that. A new truck AND a new 6 horse for my boat. ;D Seriously, I appreciate the the classics and like good repros. Still, the question is: Do you make a new model of an old classic, or take the risk and try to make a new one? Ruger did that with the 10/22 and the Blackhawk/Redhawk. I'd like to see them do it again rather than jusy be another guy offering a "me too" 1911.
FQ13
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Good luck to Ruger as well. Some may ho-hum "another 1911" however consider the design, the elegance of what an otherwise NOT changed design has achieved.
A combat pistol.
A combat proven pistol.
A combat proven pistol requested, to this day, by U.S. troops, over the M9.
An SD pistol.
An SD proven pistol.
A pistol that has stood the test of time.
.45 Ball ammo STILL WORKS.
John Browning made a winner, for our great-grandchildren to enjoy, and hopefully never need. But if called for duty, will still perform..
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/The45.jpg)
My S&W Gold Match, Performance Center "tweaked version"....and it is that good.
;)
Something is wrong with your slide. It looks like your 1911 has a glock extractor. GROSS!!! haha
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I like the 1911 but why now? I hope Ruger is going to come out with different caliber options, maybe a rail model. There are just one to many 1911's out there to choose from. I will go out on a limb and say the Ruger will be tough as a bank vault and digest all kinds of ammo.
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I like the 1911 but why now? I hope Ruger is going to come out with different caliber options, maybe a rail model. There are just one to many 1911's out there to choose from. I will go out on a limb and say the Ruger will be tough as a bank vault and digest all kinds of ammo.
That might be a good option. Why not take advantage of Ruger tough and produce a resonably priced Dessert Eagle type option on a 1911 platform? ,357, .44 mag anyone? THAT would get my attention. As it stands, if I want a work horse 1911 I'm buying a Rock Island. If I want a target gun, there are many to choose from.
FQ13
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The thread is "Ruger 1911 at last?" I'm like, "Ruger 1911- what's the point? Are they hoping that Ruger fans will buy one because it says Ruger on it? Is there a circle jerk going on at Ruger?
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Even though I trade for a bunch of different guns I've actually bought more new Ruger's from a dealer than any other brand the last couple years. The one thing I can say about all of them is they flat out work. In the last 2 years I've bought or otherwise acquired 3-LCP's, 1- .38lcr, 1- 357lcr, a .357 SP-101, a .22lr SP-101, a SR9c adn most recently a LC9. All of them have functioned perfectly, no FTF's etc. all have been very well built, better than a lot of "higher end" brands when it comes to fit and finish especially. Sure the triggers could be a bit better on most all of them. I actually emailed Ruger because I thought the trigger was a bit gritty feeling on the LC9, just feeling them out to see if this was an issue. Without even asking they offered to email me a pre-paid UPS label to send it in for them to look at. In a total turnaround of 5 days (I sent it on a Friday afternoon and had it back in my hands at 9:10am the following Wed.) It came back with a much crisper and smoother trigger.
If the pistol looks as good on the other side as that picture, keeping the warning print etc. down to the bare minimum (I'm talking to you S&W) and doesn't have huge gold laser engraved Ruger logos filling the entire slide I'll be buying one. Even if the prices come at the $700-$900 range nobody else is doing an all stainless, internal extractor 1911 made in the USA without gaudy printing all over the slide and frame. I've recently had 3 S&W 1911's and have ended up getting rid of all 3 of them because every time I cleaned it or handled it I just couldn't get past all the crap they chose to print on it. I don't want to pay to get my 1911 refinished just to get all the idiot labeling off of it. I also had an issue with the external extractor but i was willing to try to get used to that if it was the only issue I had. A real shame to because they're good shooting pistols.
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Amen to your aesthetics Basfu. I like a Taurirs for the value, but I hate the bold script on the side. I feel like we are in "the uglieest gun" thread. I am a minimalist. I don't want engraving, gold leaf, or a varninshed stock or other crap on my gun. Seriously, I traded a Weatherby Mark V ultra fancy, with the burled walnut monte carlo stock and gold enlaid bolt hanle, for a blue collar Merkle shotgun and a Ruger M77, and thought I got the better deal. Honestly, that Weatherby (with its Schmidt and Bender scope :P) made me feel like I'd escaped from a French whorehouse. Beautiful burled wood in the varnished Monte Carlo stock, great engraving, the gold was nice, but it wasn't me. God bless my granddad for getting it for me, but I was much happier with my Ruger straight stock with a B@L Elite on top of it. Not only did it shoot better (minute of coke can at 200 yards), but I didn't feel like a fool carrying it. The lesson is this. Some folks like bling. That's fine, its their call and I won't say them nay. Me? I like plain. Form over function. I gues its why I like Glock and Ruger. ;D
FQ13 Who just doesn't like a fancy gun. Deep blue and nice wood is as far as I'll go.
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The thread is "Ruger 1911 at last?" I'm like, "Ruger 1911- what's the point? Are they hoping that Ruger fans will buy one because it says Ruger on it? Is there a circle jerk going on at Ruger?
^
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Amen to your aesthetics Basfu. I like a Taurirs for the value, but I hate the bold script on the side. I feel like we are in "the uglieest gun" thread. I am a minimalist. I don't want engraving, gold leaf, or a varninshed stock or other crap on my gun. Seriously, I traded a Weatherby Mark V ultra fancy, with the burled walnut monte carlo stock and gold enlaid bolt hanle, for a blue collar Merkle shotgun and a Ruger M77, and thought I got the better deal. Honestly, that Weatherby (with its Schmidt and Bender scope :P) made me feel like I'd escaped from a French whorehouse. Beautiful burled wood in the varnished Monte Carlo stock, great engraving, the gold was nice, but it wasn't me. God bless my granddad for getting it for me, but I was much happier with my Ruger straight stock with a B@L Elite on top of it. Not only did it shoot better (minute of coke can at 200 yards), but I didn't feel like a fool carrying it. The lesson is this. Some folks like bling. That's fine, its their call and I won't say them nay. Me? I like plain. Form over function. I gues its why I like Glock and Ruger. ;D
FQ13 Who just doesn't like a fancy gun. Deep blue and nice wood is as far as I'll go.
I know exactly what you mean. I've owned some very "pretty" rifles and shotguns over the years usually something I got in trade or inheritance. You just don't feel right going in the woods with one of those rifles that has 10+ hours of hand rubbed finish on it. I've lowered my hunting cache down to 4 bolt action rifles, I can't hunt anything in North America and most of the world other than big African game and I'm not going to lose sleep if I drop one or get into nasty bush with them. Three of them have synthetic stocks and one has a matte laminated stock. three are stainless. I can go pretty much everywhere and not worry about messing them up. I still have one Citori that is a little fancy for my taste but at the time I got it it was much harder to find a plain, field grade O/U. I only use it for clays and an open dove field so I'm not as worried about it. If I go anywhere with poor conditions I take a pump or auto loader.
I want my handguns even less fancy, especially in the case of say a Taurus. I don't want a $500-$600 gun someone is trying to make look like a $5000 gun. It's the whole lipstick on a pig thing. Not that a Taurus is a pig, it's a well built tool that is being purchased for self defense. If I ever had the inkling for a highly engraved and polished 1911 I'd buy a Colt. I just don't get why you want to dress up a self defense tool with gold inlays and scroll work, especially when it's done by a machine. I respect the work a craftsman can do on a pistol or long gun with the hand engraving or inlays and it is becoming a lost art. I just don't get why you'd want it on a self defense pistol. I can see a defense attorney trying to twist that into the same argument used if you modify the trigger etc. I don't want anything that draws any unnecessary examination or attention to my defensive pistol.
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Hopefully they will be priced well enough to draw some interest..
If they are over $600, which they will be, they won't sell many..
You can still find mint Colt 1911s for around $700-$800 if you do some looking..
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Hopefully they will be priced well enough to draw some interest..
If they are over $600, which they will be, they won't sell many..
You can still find mint Colt 1911s for around $700-$800 if you do some looking..
Brand new Springfield 1911-A1's are around that price or better, and the Remington 1911's are certainly less NIB.....Rock Island has them for $500 or less, in some spots..
Welcome to the DRTV forum Headknocker.
Everyone gun owner should have (at least) "one" 1911..... ;)
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http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SR1911.htm
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If it is as good as the review indicates and with an MSRP of $799 it should do well. Maybe it will put pressure on the other manufacturers to quit pricing their 1911s like they are made of gold
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Me too....enthusiastic review, and at $799 list that's a nice looking piece. It also looks like the finishing is nice- no sharp edges, etc. I have had mixed results with Rugers over the years, but this might be a nice American alternative. We'll see.
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If it is as good as the review indicates and with an MSRP of $799 it should do well. Maybe it will put pressure on the other manufacturers to quit pricing their 1911s like they are made of gold making their 1911's overseas or in South America!
....at least Wilson, Kimber, Les Baer, etc are made here....
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I liked the DRTV video better.
I think its a must have for me. Although it might have to wait. I heard that there are a couple of other offerings from Ruger coming soon and one of those might be first on my list. If that was a lie though, then the 1911 will be joining my merry gang as soon as I can handle one.
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I think its ugly and over priced , I bet it dont shoot worth anything. A good cheap 1911 with a fitted barrel will do better at 300.00 less
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I wouldn't say it's ugly but I've always preferred a blued gun. It's certainly better looking than any Ruger auto-loader to date but then it's a 1911. The beauty is in the design.
Another option, nothing more. I do like that it's made here and from Ruger parts made here as well!
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....at least Wilson, Kimber, Les Baer, etc are made here....
...and none of those can be purchased new for $799 or less.
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I think its ugly and over priced , I bet it dont shoot worth anything. A good cheap 1911 with a fitted barrel will do better at 300.00 less
I challenge you to make a 1911 using all US made parts for the same as their MSRP. You can make it look however you think is beautiful.
You can't do it! This gun is going to sell for around 650. 650-300=350. A rock will cost you that much and THEN you have to buy a barrel and have it fitted. You are now back into the 500-600 price range and still have a phillipine gun. Nothing wrong with that but why not support an American company using American parts and American labor.
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I was excited for the Remington and am excited for the Ruger. More pistols bring down the price. :)
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I was excited for the Remington and am excited for the Ruger. More pistols bring down the price. :)
+1
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Wow! Why hasn't anyone thought to do this before?
A self loading pistol in a stout caliber.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh that's right, everybody has done it before.
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The more the merrier. 8)
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Michael mentioned that 8 round mags were not has reliable as 7 round mags. I'm not going to argue with him but I have 10 round mags from Chip McCormick that were dropped, repeatedly, in the dirt this weekend at Area 6 (USPSA) and I did not have any problems whatsoever. I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder....And I like the idea that the gun is made from materials and is assembled here in America; but I would caution against any mild nationalism about where other guns are made.
As far as the gun itself it looks like it is a solid offering from Ruger. I am wondering about the "special Novak sights" though. Does this mean that we HAVE to buy the sights from Ruger if we want something different than what is offered on the gun? I look forward to seeing an expansion to this product line too. Good on Ruger!
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I noticed that it's based on the MkIV Model 70, not the 80.
Changes include a stouter firing pin spring and a different extractor, flat mainspring housing, and solid bushing.
There's hope that this one could be very "tunable". And at a fairly low price.
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Ask away, kids...what can I tell you?????
Michael B
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Michael mentioned that 8 round mags were not has reliable as 7 round mags. I'm not going to argue with him but I have 10 round mags from Chip McCormick that were dropped, repeatedly, in the dirt this weekend at Area 6 (USPSA) and I did not have any problems whatsoever. I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder....And I like the idea that the gun is made from materials and is assembled here in America; but I would caution against any mild nationalism about where other guns are made.
As far as the gun itself it looks like it is a solid offering from Ruger. I am wondering about the "special Novak sights" though. Does this mean that we HAVE to buy the sights from Ruger if we want something different than what is offered on the gun? I look forward to seeing an expansion to this product line too. Good on Ruger!
10 round mags are a different story since they're longer. The 8 round mags use a modified follower for the +1 capacity, not magazine body length. Some 8 rounders are much better than others and run at or near 100% but none are as tried an true as 7 rounders. That being said I run almost all 8 rounders, either Wilson 47D or ACT's.
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Ask away, kids...what can I tell you?????
Michael B
Are any models going to offer a checkered frontstrap? Are all models going to be stainless, any possible coatings over teh stainless from the factory?
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Bullet points:
- Series 70, not Series 80
- No Swartz safety system
- Titanium firing pin & heavy firing pin spring
- Plunger tube cast into the frame
- Novak sights
- Barrel & bushing from the same bar stock
- Both 7 & 8 round mags included
- Adjustable trigger
- Ruger-made small parts
Can you believe I kept a secret this long?!?!?!?!
Michael B
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My understanding is that there will be a number of additional models...I would imagine checkering wold be high on the let. OTOH I wouldn't hold my breath on finishes over the stainless...although flat dark earth is cool...
mb
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As long as we have the old wise MB lurking here I'm going to try and clear something in my mind:
Is the Swartz safety a firing pin block similar to the Series 80 except it is disengaged by the grip safety rather than the trigger ???
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10 round mags are a different story since they're longer. The 8 round mags use a modified follower for the +1 capacity, not magazine body length. Some 8 rounders are much better than others and run at or near 100% but none are as tried an true as 7 rounders. That being said I run almost all 8 rounders, either Wilson 47D or ACT's.
So an 8 round mag is sort of like a "trick" 7 round mag, right? Your explanation makes sense. Thanks!
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My understanding is that there will be a number of additional models...I would imagine checkering wold be high on the let. OTOH I wouldn't hold my breath on finishes over the stainless...although flat dark earth is cool...
mb
A blued (not parkerized) model with nice wood or Ivory grips would be a nice model option.
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Yeppers...my understanding is that the grip safety disengages the firing pin safety. The problem is that typically the grip safety requires a disproportionate amount of pressure to release the firing pun. Makes the guns a real bitch for people with no so much meat between the thumb and the forefinger. My S&W lightweight Commander-sized 1911 has a Novak "Answer" mainspring housing/grip safety unit to solve that problem...
mb
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So Mr. Bane...
Does this gun use ALL milspec parts? Can one change parts to their liking.
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Best of my knowledge, yes.
And don't call me "Mr."!!!!
mb
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Bullet points:
- Series 70, not Series 80
no big deal
- Titanium firing pin & heavy firing pin spring
not needed
- Plunger tube cast into the frame
I don't like this idea at all, over complcates a casting, very easy to mach
- Barrel & bushing from the same bar stock
bad idea
Can you believe I kept a secret this long?!?!?!?!
Michael B
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Can you believe I kept a secret this long?!?!?!?!
Michael B
yes when you nuts are on the line next to that Signature on the NDA that you would of signed ;)
so Michael while I am re-arranging my to get list,( for when I can afford new toys, not any time soon though :( ) up there near the top is a 1911 ( yes we can actually get these in Australia )
I have had the Para GI in mind along with a couple of others like the Remington or a Kimber
the Ruger now has added another one in to the mix
now take your Ruger sales bloke hat off. better to stretch out the extra cash over the Para ?? as I would not be surprised to see this over $1600 or more here if we can get it over here. ( yes I know, however not that easy for me to move ) unless the Outdoor Channel and DRTV need a full time Apple Tech on staff)
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.....
Does this gun use ALL milspec parts? Can one change parts to their liking.
From the annoucement:
Positive extraction is facilitated by an improved internal extractor.
That would seem to indicate some parts are not compatible with a Colt MkIV Mod 70.
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I'll bite on this one:
Bullet points:
- Series 70, not Series 80
no big deal
- Titanium firing pin & heavy firing pin spring
not needed
Having shot loads with tough primers I see the value in a heavy firing pin spring, and using the heavy spring would make the titanium firing pin nice for longevity
- Plunger tube cast into the frame
I don't like this idea at all, over complcates a casting, very easy to mach
With Ruger being the king of investment casting I wouldn't worry about complicating the process. Also, as someone that has dropped more than one plunger tube I can appreciate an integrated part
- Barrel & bushing from the same bar stock
bad idea
Why??? What is wrong with this material choice?
Can you believe I kept a secret this long?!?!?!?!
Michael B
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You beat me to it, M58....basically what I was going to say.
To add to it:
As long as the bushing and barrel are heat-treated to a different hardness, the wear patterns will be OK, and it would be a positive thing to be made from the same stock. We used to make wear-surface components from the same stock all the time. The variance in heat treating is the key. I hate to make assumptions, but I would think that after all these years of building extremely strong guns, Ruger will have a handle on this.
JMHO, FWIW
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M58 titanium is LIGHTER then steal. The idea behind using it is the firing pin will move faster. Its not needed.
Peg, 2 reasons why think its a bad idea.
1. the bar stock is going to be harder then the slide. bad bushing to slide fit= wear on the slide= you can't really fix it.
2. Friction is always greatest between 2 simlar surfaces. since both the barrel and the bushing will have the same crystalin structure. there will be more friction, then if they were 2 diffrent types of steal.
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Peg, the difference between you and me and our opinions is that you are "humble." I'm just in your face ;D
I'd like to shoot and add one to the collection! Hey MB - How about a contest that would put one in the hands of someone with posts that number, let's just say, in the 5,500 to 6,000 range ;)
Is that clear enough or do I need to clarify it a little? Send me the damn gun!!!
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I thought the reason behind the titanium firing pin and stronger FP spring was to get around the "need" for a firing pin safety. The firing pin is light enough that its mass alone can not overcome the spring and cause an AD if the gun is dropped.
I have no doubt that I will be corrected schooled in firing pin physics if I am mistaken. ;D
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M58 titanium is LIGHTER then steal. The idea behind using it is the firing pin will move faster. Its not needed.
Read a report by someone who did a study of a titanium striker in a Glock.
He used some device, the name of which I do not recall, to measure the speed of the steel striker.
Then used it to indirectly measure the speed of the titanium striker. He could not directly measure the titanium striker because the device only worked on ferrous metals.
The difference in speed, he claimed, was greater than the amount of time it would take a bullet to travel from the muzzle to the target at self defense ranges.
Thus, using a titanium striker, and all other things being equal, your bullet would be hitting your target before his bullet left the muzzle.
Might be a life saver if the guys study was accurate.
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Good point about the NDA, PhilW...gun companies got smart about such things...
You've got a real Down Under dilemma there on 1911s...to borrow a political phrase, I think AT THIS POINT IN TIME both the Remington and the Ruger are worth the bump over the GI Expert or the Kimber. I found the GI Expert to be one of the most accurate out-of-the-box lower end 1911s I'd ever shot (I ran it alongside a C&S Custom as the control), but I had to send it back to have the sear replaced...easy for me, less so if you live on the Far Side of the World! Since I got it back, I've shot the hell out if it, and it has been perfect.
I bought my Remington because I think it is an excellent value. Again, it has been run a lot with zero problems. When I first shot it I ran 270 rounds through it as quickly as we could load magazines, and it just kept shooting one ragged hole at 7 yards on an indoor range. I really like the retro look of the R1, but for an apples-to-apples comparison the Ruger is more akin to the Remington R1 Enhanced announced at SHOT ($940 MSRP). I like fiber optic front sights on a competition gun, but NOT on a carry or self-defense gun...I've busted out a lot of fiber optic tubes over the years. Your mileage may vary.
In terms of the Ruger, I like how it's built (regardless of what our resident contrarians say!!!), and I've seen a lot of 1911s being built.
Here's a thought about 1911s..3 weeks ago I attended the GUNSITE special 1911 commemorative class with some of the top gun writers and firearms experts in the country (this country, anyway). You could NOT get a quorum on one particular brand...there were Colts (I was shooting at Wilson/Colt), Paras, S&Ws, Springfields, Kimbers, a Remington and some old Remington Rands from WW2. The shorter slide guns failed more than the 5-inchers. Our guns ran just fine, but you'd expect that.
One question I always ask of instructors is what they're seeing in their classes -- what's holding up to the battering a class puts on the gun? Right now, in terms of OUT-OF-THE-BOX guns, I hear good things about Colts, Remingtons and S&Ws. That would be consistent with my experience...
Dies that help or is it TOO bullshitty?
Michael B
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M58 titanium is LIGHTER then steal. The idea behind using it is the firing pin will move faster.
True it is lighter, but, As Ichiban said, the lighter firing pin will have less inertia. So if dropped on the muzzle it is less likely to drive through to the primer and cause a discharge. On the other hand, because of the less inertia a stronger main spring is needed to strike it with sufficient velocity to fire the cartridge when desired.
My observation about this type of accident is a) What are the odds of it landing squarely on the muzzle. b) Pretty much a concrete or steel surface is required to induce sufficient inertia. d) even if all the planets align and it does happen, the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction. Albeit a little shrapnel may be involved.
I prefer not to have the firing pin safety myself. More stuff to go wrong.
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I say "at last" for a couple reasons. Number 1, this has been an on-going rumor for 2 or 3 years now. Number 2, the 1911 is my favorite semi-auto handgun of all time, and Ruger has been my favorite gun company. So, to me at least, it is indeed "at last!"
That makes two of us anyway...
I'll admit to having been waiting for this release since I bought my P-85 in 1981. Why they couldn't have done it 5-10 years ago with a price point in the 400>500 range I'll never understand. Ruger certainly has the innovation and technology, but it wasn't to be. I'm hung-up on Kimbers now, but you better believe I'll be looking one over at the first oppertunity. Probably in Pittsburg during NRA 2011...
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M58 titanium is LIGHTER then steal. The idea behind using it is the firing pin will move faster. Its not needed.
Peg, 2 reasons why think its a bad idea.
1. the bar stock is going to be harder then the slide. bad bushing to slide fit= wear on the slide= you can't really fix it.
2. Friction is always greatest between 2 simlar surfaces. since both the barrel and the bushing will have the same crystalin structure. there will be more friction, then if they were 2 diffrent types of steal.
1. It doesn't matter if the bar stock is harder than the slide when related to the bushing. In a standard fit bushing, it doesn't move within the slide enough to matter, except when being taken down for cleaning, and that is of no consequence.
2. Friction is dependent on surface grade, finish, and hardness more than similarity in material. Like I said before, this is where heat treatment comes into play. As long as one component is heat treated to a harder Rockwell standard than the other, it will be OK for normal function. We are not talking about a high RPM racing engine crankshaft here.
**As a side note, the best case scenario for friction surfaces (using real-world materials that are readily available) is stainless steel on titanium....as in a stainless barrel with a titanium bushing.
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Slide wear on 1911s is pretty much inconsequential...you'll see wear on the slide/frame fit after many, many thousands of rounds, but it can always be adjusted. I've never seen an issue of wear between the bushing and the slide, even on some of the softer foreign guns years back.
Galling between similar metal surfaces hasn't been a particular issue for quite some time...I think back to the AMT Hardballer, I think the first all-stainless steel 1911, where galling was endemic with the gun...the problem(s) were that AMT was using the same alloy stainless for both the slide and frame, and both were treated (or not treated) to the same spec. That is no longer the case with any gun manufacturers I know of. They've now got a lot of experience with stainless, and they're good at it. A third problems was that when the Hardballer showed up in the mid-1970s we didn't have the high-zoot lubricants we now all take for granted. I briefly had a Hardballer, and it ran just fine as long as I kept the rails greased.
I think an additional problem had to do with final machining on the frame and slide...the smoother the finish, the less potential for galling. Modern CNC equipment is simply better for cutting metal than lathes and drill presses.
The titanium firing pin is as AlfS. lighter and has less inertia if the gun is dropped...I also agree with AlfS. that the likelihood of such a perfect drop causing a misfire is vanishingly small. I have heard, but cannot confirm, that the newer military 1911s going into service with the SOCOM guys are fitted with titanium firing pins as a rule.
Michael B
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I love all the ruger revolvers, but cant say a good thing about their auto loaders. I have a custom RIA and it didnt cost as much as this to build and will out shoot and out look most hi end guns. Just my .02
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I bought a Remington, and I will be buying a Ruger 1911 later this year.
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A blued (not parkerized) model with nice wood or Ivory grips would be a nice model option.
But if they're only building stainless guns you can't blue or parkerize one. The only finish is a coating that goes over stainless like duracoat, cerakote or something like the finished used by Sig, Springfield and others over stainless.
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I like how it is claimed that the barrel and bushing are machined from the same piece of stock and stay together and therefore are a matched pair. Sorry BS. Just look at the video at about 8:23 it clearly shows that the barrels and bushing are simply piled in bins seperate.
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I like how it is claimed that the barrel and bushing are machined from the same piece of stock and stay together and therefore are a matched pair. Sorry BS. Just look at the video at about 8:23 it clearly shows that the barrels and bushing are simply piled in bins seperate.
staudacher,
I have read and watched much on this gun, not all, but I don't read that it is the same piece of stock. I read that it is the same stock. I would imagine that they have a load of bar stock that is feeding two machines - one making barrels and one making bushings. Same material, but not making barrel, bushing, barrel, bushing, barrel, ...
Regardless, even if they were machined one right after the other it would be of no advantage unless they were fit to each other.
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staudacher,
I have read and watched much on this gun, not all, but I don't read that it is the same piece of stock. I read that it is the same stock. I would imagine that they have a load of bar stock that is feeding two machines - one making barrels and one making bushings. Same material, but not making barrel, bushing, barrel, bushing, barrel, ...
Regardless, even if they were machined one right after the other it would be of no advantage unless they were fit to each other.
The gunblast.com video stated that it was a matched bushing and barrel that stayed together during the whole process from beginning to end.
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In watching the video this evening I noticed one major departure from the days of Mr. William Ruger. Mike Scoggins states it at the 5:35 mark, and MB states it at the 11:40 mark: They spent time with customers and polled customers. The first time I saw William Ruger on video he stated that they didn't need focus groups or surveys. He said that Ruger is a gun company run by gun people, and if they don't know what shooters are looking for they shouldn't be making guns.
Outside of that item catching my eye I really liked the video.
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*YAWN* Another overpriced 5″ .45ACP just like all the others….only one left to make one now is Glock….
Ruger really missed a chance to stand out from the pack….they could have introduced a Lightweight Commander-style 1911 using the aluminum frame material like the P-series or even a polymer one that allows you to add 1911 grips like the new 22/45 does. Maybe even a reduced size one to undercut Springfield’s EMP……
Sorry….the gun world needs another 5″ steel-frame .45ACP 1911 like Texas needs another country-music radio station….
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Seeker,
There may be a lot of 1911's in the world. But for guys like MB and myself that shower with them on, you can never have too many ;D
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The gunblast.com video stated that it was a matched bushing and barrel that stayed together during the whole process from beginning to end.
Sorry, haven't watched that one yet.
Read the release on here and on this thread, and I watched MB's video and a couple others. There is still a lot out there to watch!
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perfect thanks Michael :)
Good point about the NDA, PhilW...gun companies got smart about such things...
getting lessons from Apple seem to work ;)
You've got a real Down Under dilemma there on 1911s...to borrow a political phrase,
yep, we can get them however what they class as Hi Cal ( Category 4 - handguns over .38 calibre ) there are only a few comps we can have them for, Single Action ( Cowboy ) Handgun Metallic Silhouette & Black Powder.
every chance we get we are trying to get them back as I would love to shoot a 1911 .45 for Combined services, ( well it is a service pistol. why not GRRR ) however we do what we can and fight hard for what we can.
the biggest issue and one of the things bugged us was old mates that just would shoot say there own thing saying well it dose not affect me why should i care or the well I only shoot .22 there is no need for anyone to shoot a .338lap.
I don't shoot ducks ( yet ) however I made sure I was at a Public Anti protest meeting pushing the pro hunting message,
seems apathy is alive in the shooting world over here, people stuck in there old ways. ( not everyone just i see it a lot) there is a lot of switched on and motivated people fighting it though ( sorry for the rant )
I think AT THIS POINT IN TIME both the Remington and the Ruger are worth the bump over the GI Expert or the Kimber. I found the GI Expert to be one of the most accurate out-of-the-box lower end 1911s I'd ever shot (I ran it alongside a C&S Custom as the control), but I had to send it back to have the sear replaced...easy for me, less so if you live on the Far Side of the World! Since I got it back, I've shot the hell out if it, and it has been perfect.
I bought my Remington because I think it is an excellent value. Again, it has been run a lot with zero problems. When I first shot it I ran 270 rounds through it as quickly as we could load magazines, and it just kept shooting one ragged hole at 7 yards on an indoor range. I really like the retro look of the R1, but for an apples-to-apples comparison the Ruger is more akin to the Remington R1 Enhanced announced at SHOT ($940 MSRP). I like fiber optic front sights on a competition gun, but NOT on a carry or self-defense gun...I've busted out a lot of fiber optic tubes over the years. Your mileage may vary.
In terms of the Ruger, I like how it's built (regardless of what our resident contrarians say!!!), and I've seen a lot of 1911s being built.
thanks heaps for that. I like the R1 for that reason the retro look, then again my 2 Taurus's ( 9mm & .357) are nice and shiny hehe
Here's a thought about 1911s..3 weeks ago I attended the GUNSITE special 1911 commemorative class with some of the top gun writers and firearms experts in the country (this country, anyway). You could NOT get a quorum on one particular brand...there were Colts (I was shooting at Wilson/Colt), Paras, S&Ws, Springfields, Kimbers, a Remington and some old Remington Rands from WW2. The shorter slide guns failed more than the 5-inchers. Our guns ran just fine, but you'd expect that.
One question I always ask of instructors is what they're seeing in their classes -- what's holding up to the battering a class puts on the gun? Right now, in terms of OUT-OF-THE-BOX guns, I hear good things about Colts, Remingtons and S&Ws. That would be consistent with my experience...
Dies that help or is it TOO bullshitty?
Michael B
perfect thanks
I am going to see if we can get them and how much they will end up being ( as I will need time to save up anyway and get it past the minister or war and finance, as she put a new policy of NO MORE GUNS you have enough)
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In watching the video this evening I noticed one major departure from the days of Mr. William Ruger. Mike Scoggins states it at the 5:35 mark, and MB states it at the 11:40 mark: They spent time with customers and polled customers. The first time I saw William Ruger on video he stated that they didn't need focus groups or surveys. He said that Ruger is a gun company run by gun people, and if they don't know what shooters are looking for they shouldn't be making guns.
This is the difference between an owner/operator and his corporate descendents. I don't think that Ronnie Barret would run a focus group. I also don't think that his son would. But a generation or two down the road..yeah that's what happens.
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In watching the video this evening I noticed one major departure from the days of Mr. William Ruger. Mike Scoggins states it at the 5:35 mark, and MB states it at the 11:40 mark: They spent time with customers and polled customers. The first time I saw William Ruger on video he stated that they didn't need focus groups or surveys. He said that Ruger is a gun company run by gun people, and if they don't know what shooters are looking for they shouldn't be making guns.
Outside of that item catching my eye I really liked the video.
You know,Bill Ruger obviously did not need a focus group, and he obviously did know what customers wanted. Otherwise, he would have went out of business. The Standard Auto, MK 1, Single six, and Blackhawks where complete successes. Not to mention the 10/22, Model 77, #1 etc. Bill Ruger brought out some of these guns that all the experts said would not sell, and he sold a ton of them. He was, indeed, a gun person.
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As far as the, "Why Ruger and why now?" on the marketing of this 1911. I think they are in a position where they almost have to in order to remain in the competitive posture the company has taken since the passing of Bill Ruger. It seems most any and all of the major firearms companies today produce both a AR-15 model, (or many models), and a 1911 in some flavor. Remington and S&W both come to mind.
These 2 models of weapons are immensely popular, and both of them have a huge market. Ruger is in a position to capitalize on it, so in this regard they would almost be foolish not to. Also, with their Investment Casting technology, (Pine Tree Castings), they can produce it at a profit easier than most companies. If you think about it a 1911 pistol is not that easy to build, and it's one of the reasons some companies have to charge what they do to make a buck on them. Or else make them overseas with much cheaper labor. A lot of parts and machining are involved. And if it isn't done correctly you can have a real mess on your hands.
Ruger has come out of the gate with this gun priced competitively. I'm guessing a street price at or slightly below the Remington Standard R-1 Model. They've also elected to go with Stainless Steel which is also becoming more popular by the day. We as gun people really benefit from all of this. Competition drives quality. The more companies that produce the same thing, the harder they have to work at getting your business. This is good for everyone, even if you happen to choose a 1911 other than this new Ruger. The Ruger AR-15 has a large following, and has been a success for them. I suspect this gun will do the same. In an economy that currently stinks on ice, this is a very good thing to see. Bill T.
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Bill,
You make ssome great points but I see it in a slightly different way.
As price becomes important, the only way to be competative is to lower quality to keep the same margins. Maybe Ruger has lower margins than Reminington, but I doubt they do over smaller business.
Me too marketing in business may make sense if a portion of your loyal customer basis is looking to purchase something you do not make. It also takes less engineering to reproduce someone elses work than to be inovative.
However, Me Too marketers are always late to the dance. Somebody else has pioneered the idea and in the case of both 1911 and AR15 reduced it to a standard. How many more people will buy 1911? How many are not happy with who the bought a pistol from the last time? Why would Ruger build a better 1911 than Kimber, STI, Colt, Springfield after all these years?
I will give Ruger management credit for offering new products. It does show they want to be a big player in the industry.
Just not a leader for my $0.02.
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It is my contention that most 1911 owners own more than one. Many own several and are willing to bring another into the fold if it piques their interest. I think people that look at the market and assume that it is a "one gun per buyer" market are way off base, especially where 1911s are concerned. If they make a decent gun at a decent price they will do well. A lot of people wont drop the big bucks on a custom gun like Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, etc., but will eventually spend several times that on multiple guns over the years. 1911 are very addictive.
"Hi. My name is Ichiban and I'm a 1911-aholic."
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Bill,
You make ssome great points but I see it in a slightly different way.
As price becomes important, the only way to be competative is to lower quality to keep the same margins. Maybe Ruger has lower margins than Reminington, but I doubt they do over smaller business.
Me too marketing in business may make sense if a portion of your loyal customer basis is looking to purchase something you do not make. It also takes less engineering to reproduce someone elses work than to be inovative.
However, Me Too marketers are always late to the dance. Somebody else has pioneered the idea and in the case of both 1911 and AR15 reduced it to a standard. How many more people will buy 1911? How many are not happy with who the bought a pistol from the last time? Why would Ruger build a better 1911 than Kimber, STI, Colt, Springfield after all these years?
I will give Ruger management credit for offering new products. It does show they want to be a big player in the industry.
Just not a leader for my $0.02.
That might be true in the shoe business, but "Gun Nuts" don't think that way. No firearm enthusiast is gonna head to the Big Box Store and buy whatever gun is on Buy One, Get One Free that week.
It takes a LONG time for a manufacture with a poor reputation for quality to climb back up no matter how good they have become. I've never owned a Taurus but, from what I gather, they have had their quality control problems in the past and seem to have overcome them in recent products. But still, I'd bet over 50% of "Gun Nuts" give them a thumbs down due to remembering past history.
Making it low quality to make it cheap won't cut it. Making good quality at the best price will win out is this market.
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It is my contention that most 1911 owners own more than one. Many own several and are willing to bring another into the fold if it piques their interest. I think people that look at the market and assume that it is a "one gun per buyer" market are way off base, especially where 1911s are concerned. If they make a decent gun at a decent price they will do well. A lot of people wont drop the big bucks on a custom gun like Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, etc., but will eventually spend several times that on multiple guns over the years. 1911 are very addictive.
"Hi. My name is Ichiban and I'm a 1911-aholic."
I have two and would like a nice officer size model. Being a lefty it won't be a Ruger.
That might be true in the shoe business, but "Gun Nuts" don't think that way. No firearm enthusiast is gonna head to the Big Box Store and buy whatever gun is on Buy One, Get One Free that week.
It takes a LONG time for a manufacture with a poor reputation for quality to climb back up no matter how good they have become. I've never owned a Taurus but, from what I gather, they have had their quality control problems in the past and seem to have overcome them in recent products. But still, I'd bet over 50% of "Gun Nuts" give them a thumbs down due to remembering past history.
Making it low quality to make it cheap won't cut it. Making good quality at the best price will win out is this market.
I'm with you but that what drives lots of folks purchases. They buy cheap, not quality
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It is my contention that most 1911 owners own more than one. Many own several and are willing to bring another into the fold if it piques their interest. I think people that look at the market and assume that it is a "one gun per buyer" market are way off base, especially where 1911s are concerned. If they make a decent gun at a decent price they will do well. A lot of people wont drop the big bucks on a custom gun like Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, etc., but will eventually spend several times that on multiple guns over the years. 1911 are very addictive.
"Hi. My name is Ichiban and I'm a 1911-aholic."
Bingo. This is it exactly. While I do not consider myself a "1911 Aholic", I do own 4 of them. I don't think I'm any different than most other 1911 owners and shooters. I can also say the exact same thing about AR-15 owners and shooters. A great many of them own more than 1. I think this is the market Ruger is going after. I certainly would consider one if and when I'm ready to purchase another.
Ruger has a huge market following, and many will select their 1911 over others based on the Ruger name alone. Much the same as a Smith & Wesson lover will gravitate to their line of 1911's. Ruger has sold a lot of guns over the years. One of the main reasons they have is careful market research. They seem to make guns people want to buy, and they keep them affordable. Ruger is a gun for the masses. This new 1911 falls into that category very well. Bill T.
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I'm with you but that what drives lots of folks purchases. They buy cheap, not quality
I think that might be true of a carry gun or a bed side gun at least by non-gun aficionados. The "only own 1 gun" set. It would be interesting to know the percentage of "gun aficionados" (like us) over total gun ownership. It would also be interesting to know the breakdown of # of guns owned between classifications.
By "1 gun only" I don't mean literally one gun, I mean they more interested in hunting or self defense than in the guns themselves. They've got a 12 gauge pump for birds and a 30/30 for deer and they need something for around the house or in the pick-up. They don't read gun magazines and they aren't a member of any on-line gun forums.
Now true Ruger fans and 1911 fans will want this gun, just because it is.
And it "is" made by a known entity, Ruger and will fill the 1911 desire without breaking the bank. Not a carry gun (at least not small) and not a bulls-eye competition gun.
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The 1911 market is, to me, amazing. If you had asked me in, say 1979, whether I thought the 1911 would be one of the best-selling guns in the world in 2011, I would have laughed hysterically and said absolutely not. Yet here we are. In any market this large, there are multiple drivers — 1911-based guns continue to own the competition market; the fact that high level law enforcement and the military continue to demand and use 1911s is clearly a factor; Kimber's brilliant marketing strategy, which basically sold 1911s the way a clothing retailer would sell this year's fashion hits, changed the baseline; again, Kimber's relentless selling to their own base market (essentially following Glock's lead on that) made other manufacturers follow suit...the result is a much more manufacturer-centric market than back in the early days of 1911s, where we pretty much didn't distinguish between models since we were having them all rebuilt anyway...it was a Wilson gun or a Swenson gun or a Plaxco gun, built on something or other; NOT a Colt, Springfield or Nornico.
Finally, the gun is damn near perfect, especially in its ergonomics. When I was running the NSSF media program, we used to do a sneaky thing with our students. We'd start them on 9mm Glocks. Halfway through the day we'd shift them to 1911s, and — as if by hand of the occult! — their scores suddenly soared!
Like the 10/22 and the AR platform, 1911s are adult male Barbies, capable of being dressed up any way the customer wants. Look at how much of the Midway USA and Brownell's catalogs are devoted to 1911 parts.
I continue to find the gun fascinating...a good 1911 is more than the sum of its parts. As much as I love cowboy guns, if I just open the safe and pick a gun to go shoot, it will always be a 1911. If indeed Quinn the Eskimo descends from the skies with phasers blazing and I have to run out of my bunker with only one pistol, it'll be a 1911 .45ACP. The 2 guns that mean the most to me in the world, guns that I believe I will take with me to the grave, are my father's 1911A1 Remington Rand and my aging Wilson/Colt 1911 competition gun with its hundreds of thousands of rounds through it. Not many guns inspire those kinds of feelings...
Michael B
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PS: Lowering quality isn't the only, and certainly not the best, way of increasing margin. Changing/modernizing manufacturing processes accomplishes the same thing while actually increasing quality. That's why I spend today's podcast talking about the line at Ruger. Think about that EDM'ed breech face as an example. Using a draw tool, for example, to cut the breech face means that each breech face must be examined, then "cleaned up" by hand or an additional tool...not a lot of time, but still time, and time is always money. If the breech face comes out to the EDM machine 100% ready to go, the manufacturer has saved money.
That's why small parts are such an issue...John Browning designed the gun to have the small parts fitted by hand by experts, because at that time expert hand-fitters and gunsmiths were cheap and machines expensive (and limited in what they could machine). If the small parts can be made to very high tolerances and the frame and slide machined appropriately, then final assembly is actually a matter of assembly rather than fitting. And you increase the margin. The control of the small parts has always been one of STI International's secrets of their super high quality guns (IMHO, the highest quality out-of-the-box guns in America) and I was impressed to see Ruger go down the same path.
Michael B
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The 1911 market is, to me, amazing. If you had asked me in, say 1979, whether I thought the 1911 would be one of the best-selling guns in the world in 2011, I would have laughed hysterically and said absolutely not. Yet here we are. In any market this large, there are multiple drivers — 1911-based guns continue to own the competition market; the fact that high level law enforcement and the military continue to demand and use 1911s is clearly a factor; Kimber's brilliant marketing strategy, which basically sold 1911s the way a clothing retailer would sell this year's fashion hits, changed the baseline; again, Kimber's relentless selling to their own base market (essentially following Glock's lead on that) made other manufacturers follow suit...the result is a much more manufacturer-centric market than back in the early days of 1911s, where we pretty much didn't distinguish between models since we were having them all rebuilt anyway...it was a Wilson gun or a Swenson gun or a Plaxco gun, built on something or other; NOT a Colt, Springfield or Nornico.
Finally, the gun is damn near perfect, especially in its ergonomics. When I was running the NSSF media program, we used to do a sneaky thing with our students. We'd start them on 9mm Glocks. Halfway through the day we'd shift them to 1911s, and — as if by hand of the occult! — their scores suddenly soared!
Like the 10/22 and the AR platform, 1911s are adult male Barbies, capable of being dressed up any way the customer wants. Look at how much of the Midway USA and Brownell's catalogs are devoted to 1911 parts.
I continue to find the gun fascinating...a good 1911 is more than the sum of its parts. As much as I love cowboy guns, if I just open the safe and pick a gun to go shoot, it will always be a 1911. If indeed Quinn the Eskimo descends from the skies with phasers blazing and I have to run out of my bunker with only one pistol, it'll be a 1911 .45ACP. The 2 guns that mean the most to me in the world, guns that I believe I will take with me to the grave, are my father's 1911A1 Remington Rand and my aging Wilson/Colt 1911 competition gun with its hundreds of thousands of rounds through it. Not many guns inspire those kinds of feelings...
Michael B
Amen....could not have said it any better, MB. ;)
As I said in another thread, as far as the 1911 is concerned, "Here endeth the lesson." :D
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PS: Lowering quality isn't the only, and certainly not the best, way of increasing margin. Changing/modernizing manufacturing processes accomplishes the same thing while actually increasing quality. That's why I spend today's podcast talking about the line at Ruger. Think about that EDM'ed breech face as an example. Using a draw tool, for example, to cut the breech face means that each breech face must be examined, then "cleaned up" by hand or an additional tool...not a lot of time, but still time, and time is always money. If the breech face comes out to the EDM machine 100% ready to go, the manufacturer has saved money. Michael B
Being a machinist over the last 40 years, this has impressed me the most. If you look at the tangent rear sight on a Mauser 98 for example. That tangent surface the rear sight rides on had to be exact, and right on the money for every single rifle produced. If it wasn't a soldier couldn't hit a thing with it over 100 yards because of the exemplification of error. Today it would be a relatively simple task to produce, but back then? It required tremendous skill to maintain that level of consistency. They did it. How, I have no idea, except for sheer skill.
Fast forward to today and use the example you mentioned on Rugers EDM applied method, along with their advanced vacuum Investment Casting technology. The quality is simply amazing for the price they charge. I think what keeps me buying guns, is after I buy and examine them in detail at home, away from the gun counter, I never cease to be amazed at how they are able to manufacture them for the cost they charge, and still turn a profit. We has firearm owners have a lot to be thankful for today. Bill T.
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Being a machinist over the last 40 years, this has impressed me the most. If you look at the tangent rear sight on a Mauser 98 for example. That tangent surface the rear sight rides on had to be exact, and right on the money for every single rifle produced. If it wasn't a soldier couldn't hit a thing with it over 100 yards because of the exemplification of error. Today it would be a relatively simple task to produce, but back then? It required tremendous skill to maintain that level of consistency. They did it. How, I have no idea, except for sheer skill.
Fast forward to today and use the example you mentioned on Rugers EDM applied method, along with their advanced vacuum Investment Casting technology. The quality is simply amazing for the price they charge. I think what keeps me buying guns, is after I buy and examine them in detail at home, away from the gun counter, I never cease to be amazed at how they are able to manufacture them for the cost they charge, and still turn a profit. We has firearm owners have a lot to be thankful for today. Bill T.
+1
You guys are preaching a down-right sermon on the 1911.......... and I like sittin' in the choir. :D ;)
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I submit that the 1911 is to the handgun world what the .22lr is to the rifle world.
I have read it in many magazines and books, and heard many top shooters say that you can tell the type of person by the .22 in his rack (or in the case of Red and M'ette - The rack on her .22 ;D let me finish this thought and I'll head for the corner).
When I am at matches, gun shows, gun shops with real gun people behind the counter, and ranges sooner or later every handgun conversation will come around to either a single action or the 1911. The generic benchmark for all pistols is the John Browning's 1911. It wasn't the first, but it is the longest lived and best known, and that explains why it is hard to be a handgun manufacturer and not have one in the stable.
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It is my contention that most 1911 owners own more than one. Many own several and are willing to bring another into the fold if it piques their interest. I think people that look at the market and assume that it is a "one gun per buyer" market are way off base, especially where 1911s are concerned. If they make a decent gun at a decent price they will do well. A lot of people wont drop the big bucks on a custom gun like Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, etc., but will eventually spend several times that on multiple guns over the years. 1911 are very addictive.
"Hi. My name is Ichiban and I'm a 1911-aholic."
I'm one of the one's your talking about. I've got around a dozen 1911's of one configuration or another yet I don't own an all stainless model. I have/had an AMT Hardballer that was an all stainless pistol until the slide rail sheered off. It is now an AMT Hardballer stainless frame with a blued Series 70 Colt slide, my bastard child 45. I own 2 different Kimber's with a stainless slide on an aluminum frame but WHEN I purchase my Ruger 1911 it will be my only all stainless 1911. I just have to decide if I wait for a checkered front strap model or buy right away and get it checkered aftermarket. I guess it depends on what kind of deal I can get. I'm curious to see if they try to over-markup these ala the LCP/LCR/LC9 or if there's not enough demand for that.
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I have two and would like a nice officer size model. Being a lefty it won't be a Ruger.
Why does being a lefty preclude you from buying a Ruger 1911? I'm a lefty as well and plan on buying one so I was curious as to your reasoning?
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I'm one of the one's your talking about. I've got around a dozen 1911's of one configuration or another yet I don't own an all stainless model. I have/had an AMT Hardballer that was an all stainless pistol until the slide rail sheered off. It is now an AMT Hardballer stainless frame with a blued Series 70 Colt slide, my bastard child 45. I own 2 different Kimber's with a stainless slide on an aluminum frame but WHEN I purchase my Ruger 1911 it will be my only all stainless 1911. I just have to decide if I wait for a checkered front strap model or buy right away and get it checkered aftermarket. I guess it depends on what kind of deal I can get. I'm curious to see if they try to over-markup these ala the LCP/LCR/LC9 or if there's not enough demand for that.
oh I'm sure all the ruger fan boys will cuase the prices to go thru the roof for atleast the 1st 6 months.
If I was looking to buy one( which I'm not at this point in time, might change after I actually shoot one and see if it hype or not, ruger is known for lots of hype after all)I'd be looking end of 2012 start of 2013. that way the market will cool down and there is even a chance to pick one up used for cheap.
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I'm one of the one's your talking about. I've got around a dozen 1911's of one configuration or another yet I don't own an all stainless model. I have/had an AMT Hardballer that was an all stainless pistol until the slide rail sheered off. It is now an AMT Hardballer stainless frame with a blued Series 70 Colt slide, my bastard child 45. I own 2 different Kimber's with a stainless slide on an aluminum frame but WHEN I purchase my Ruger 1911 it will be my only all stainless 1911. I just have to decide if I wait for a checkered front strap model or buy right away and get it checkered aftermarket. I guess it depends on what kind of deal I can get. I'm curious to see if they try to over-markup these ala the LCP/LCR/LC9 or if there's not enough demand for that.
From what I have seen over the years these probably will not demand a premium. The 1911 is not viewed as a hot new commodity by the masses, so unless Ruger shorts the supplies and as long as we don't stampede to buy every one most shops will be reasonable.
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Quote from: ratcatcher55 on Today at 09:18:32 am
I have two and would like a nice officer size model. Being a lefty it won't be a Ruger.
Why does being a lefty preclude you from buying a Ruger 1911? I'm a lefty as well and plan on buying one so I was curious as to your reasoning?
This is the one thing that I think most mass makers of the 1911 are missing. I would have thought by now someone would have come up with an easily convertible ambi safety. I wouldn't want a dedicated ambi for daily carry, but I would think there would be a market for a safety that could be set up right, left or ambi with a simple part exchange. I have an idea that would be a simple operation with no disassembly, but nobody has asked me ... then again I haven't offered it either.
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From what I have seen over the years these probably will not demand a premium. The 1911 is not viewed as a hot new commodity by the masses, so unless Ruger shorts the supplies and as long as we don't stampede to buy every one most shops will be reasonable.
I was leaning this way as well. I think it will be a hot item but if they are truly targeting the consumer who already owns multiple 1911's then that person probably won't mind waiting a few months to get theirs. As long as they put out a decent number I'd be surprised if you had to pay over MSRP. I would expect to pay less. I recently bought 2 LC9's and paid $339 ea. with $22 shipping, $700 total to my FFL. I'm sure some unscrupulous dealer will try to rape consumers but if you shop it you should be able to buy one at a decent price.
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Quote from: ratcatcher55 on Today at 09:18:32 am
I have two and would like a nice officer size model. Being a lefty it won't be a Ruger.
Why does being a lefty preclude you from buying a Ruger 1911? I'm a lefty as well and plan on buying one so I was curious as to your reasoning?
This is the one thing that I think most mass makers of the 1911 are missing. I would have thought by now someone would have come up with an easily convertible ambi safety. I wouldn't want a dedicated ambi for daily carry, but I would think there would be a market for a safety that could be set up right, left or ambi with a simple part exchange. I have an idea that would be a simple operation with no disassembly, but nobody has asked me ... then again I haven't offered it either.
I'm totally happy with the Wilson Combat slim ambi, not totally drop in but pretty easy to fit. I run them on almost all my 1911's although a couple have Swenson's which I like better but are harder to find.
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Quote from: ratcatcher55 on Today at 09:18:32 am
I have two and would like a nice officer size model. Being a lefty it won't be a Ruger.
Why does being a lefty preclude you from buying a Ruger 1911? I'm a lefty as well and plan on buying one so I was curious as to your reasoning?
This is the one thing that I think most mass makers of the 1911 are missing. I would have thought by now someone would have come up with an easily convertible ambi safety. I wouldn't want a dedicated ambi for daily carry, but I would think there would be a market for a safety that could be set up right, left or ambi with a simple part exchange. I have an idea that would be a simple operation with no disassembly, but nobody has asked me ... then again I haven't offered it either.
I work in 3D modeling. We work primarily with sheet metal but the software was originally designed for molding and machining in mind. I can produce a right or left hand model of anything in a few clicks of a mouse!
It would be nothing to produce a 1911 in a complete left hand version from the design side and the 5 axis machining centers used today could care less what "hand" their milling. I'm surprise that no one has made a complete left hand version of a 1911, a Block, a "insert name here", yada, yada, yada. They've done a few revolvers haven't they? Charter Arms comes to mind...
If they can do it with an AR platform, a 1911 would be a piece of cake!
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Why does being a lefty preclude you from buying a Ruger 1911? I'm a lefty as well and plan on buying one so I was curious as to your reasoning?
My understanding is they are wrong side safety only. A left only would be fine but I use the ambidex safeties on my pistols with manual levers.
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PS: Lowering quality isn't the only, and certainly not the best, way of increasing margin. Changing/modernizing manufacturing processes accomplishes the same thing while actually increasing quality. That's why I spend today's podcast talking about the line at Ruger. Think about that EDM'ed breech face as an example. Using a draw tool, for example, to cut the breech face means that each breech face must be examined, then "cleaned up" by hand or an additional tool...not a lot of time, but still time, and time is always money. If the breech face comes out to the EDM machine 100% ready to go, the manufacturer has saved money.
That's why small parts are such an issue...John Browning designed the gun to have the small parts fitted by hand by experts, because at that time expert hand-fitters and gunsmiths were cheap and machines expensive (and limited in what they could machine). If the small parts can be made to very high tolerances and the frame and slide machined appropriately, then final assembly is actually a matter of assembly rather than fitting. And you increase the margin. The control of the small parts has always been one of STI International's secrets of their super high quality guns (IMHO, the highest quality out-of-the-box guns in America) and I was impressed to see Ruger go down the same path.
Michael B
This implies a large capitol expense. That has to be passed on over some period of time. Add operator training, a non bubba skill and that adds cost.
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This implies a large capitol expense. That has to be passed on over some period of time. Add operator training, a non bubba skill and that adds cost.
Remember ratcatcher55, Ruger is an up and running company that has mastered these processes. They already have most of what they need. A few more machines and a few people maybe, and some retraining for new product, and the 1911 goes into the product rotation of the line.
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I think what keeps me buying guns, is after I buy and examine them in detail at home, away from the gun counter, I never cease to be amazed at how they are able to manufacture them for the cost they charge, and still turn a profit. We has firearm owners have a lot to be thankful for today. Bill T.
and I am sure the whole Firearms industry will thank YOU for continuing to buy new firearms ;)
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Remember ratcatcher55, Ruger is an up and running company that has mastered these processes. They already have most of what they need. A few more machines and a few people maybe, and some retraining for new product, and the 1911 goes into the product rotation of the line.
High end machine tools are anything but cheap.
even a investment of say 3, maching centers and every thing needed to run them is well into the millions.
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Haas, 5 axis vertical is about 350K.........don't know the capability.
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yep and thats with out options, or tooling.
figure a easy mil per machine to get you up and running.
You pretty much have to run these things a min of 2 shifts a day and atleast 6 days a week to make any money with them.
3 shifts and 7 days a week would be better. with maybe 1 or 2 shifts a month for repairs/cleaning and the like.
Unless you want to pay $$$$ in OT that 3x7 needs atleast 5 employees 4 full and one part.
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My understanding is they are wrong side safety only. A left only would be fine but I use the ambidex safeties on my pistols with manual levers.
That's the great thing about 1911's, more aftermarket parts than any other pistol. Pick out the ambi-safety you prefer and install it. Many 1911 models come with RH safety only and this is how that problem has always been solved.
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I'd say more like 500K per machine. Amortized over 10 years, you've gotta get about 500K revenue/year out of the machine to break even figuring a 10% (if you're lucky) net profit margin. Not easy and that doesn't account for the labor side of things.
Tooling is going to depend on the material. Some alloys eat tooling quickly...
That is a high end machine, there are cheaper versions available.
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The question that isn't being answered is how many new tools will be needed? How many operations will be taken on by under utilized machines already on the floor, and how many machines near the end of their depreciation life will be given a second life making new parts.
We have a couple international manufacturing companies with major plants within 30 miles of us (very large residential and commercial lawn care, and one of, if not the largest, agriculture implement companies). Both of them will add new product lines and do most of their new work with existing equipment until all is proven. Then they will rearrange and add more machinery.
It would be interesting to see how many machines Ruger has, how many they are adding, and how many models each of these machines produces parts for.
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I like it. It has the features I like and it's priced pretty nice as well. I may have to adopt one.
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When I said 1 mill I ment for every thing to actually get you into production. things like install, training, software, CMM and etc.
lets also not forget that most of these machines require lots of air, its often about 10 cfm at 100 psi. Thats alot of air and must be 100% duty cycle. Not a motor rated for 100% duty cycle, but the compressor rated for 100% duty cycle. That pretty much means a rotary with atleast 5 hp per machine. does not sound like much, but its about 5k to start. it wil most likly be 460V 3p and around 7 amps, thats like 4500 watts. Thats about $6k a year in just power if you pay $.15/kwh.
Granted thats a drop in the bucket for these operations, but every watt of power you use costs you. I know from exp that power is the largest cost for machine operations.
M58 tom would be able to answer that Q for you. I'd guess 30-60 tools in each machine, I'd guess atleast 10 get swaped out every shift.
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I like the made in the USA, I dont like cheap imports. The only knock against my Springfields is that all there frames made in Brazil. Then again I own at least 12 different Rugers maybe one more wont hurt.
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Seeker Two beat me to making a comment about Glock making a 1911. ;D
Just don't see that happening. Still wondering where the Glock Carbine has been? Guess I should save that for another part of the forum?
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When I said 1 mill I ment for every thing to actually get you into production. things like install, training, software, CMM and etc.
lets also not forget that most of these machines require lots of air, its often about 10 cfm at 100 psi. Thats alot of air and must be 100% duty cycle. Not a motor rated for 100% duty cycle, but the compressor rated for 100% duty cycle. That pretty much means a rotary with atleast 5 hp per machine. does not sound like much, but its about 5k to start. it wil most likly be 460V 3p and around 7 amps, thats like 4500 watts. Thats about $6k a year in just power if you pay $.15/kwh.
I think Mr. Ohm would disagree.................... 3220 watts
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I think Mr. Ohm would disagree.................... 3220 watts
Mr watts agrees with me...
if it was single phase you would be correct...
3 phase is diffrent... you have to account for the 3 phases( same hz just out of phase)
so to find watts in ac single phase its
W=IxExPF
in 3 phase its W=IxEx1.732PF
to find PF in single phase its
PF=W/(vxA)
3 phase its
pf=w/(exix1.732)
http://www.jobsite-generators.com/power_calculators.html
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You are right TAB........ I better go to bed.
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So I guess The Lord High Priests at Ruger have comitted big bucks and/or resources to make this a profitable venture.
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I didn't use all the correct terms - Almost as bad as a clip/magazine snafu :-[
Tools are tools, and there is a cost per gun for wear and tear, and replacement of tools. What I was talking about was the actual CNC machines. I would like to know how much of the new production Ruger is going to ramp up with existing under utilized machines and how much will require expansion in both square footage and added machinery.
If they can increase productivity the start up costs will help keep the pricing low, and it will help economize all Ruger firearms.
TAB, much of your costs of operating machines and tooling are moot points. Those costs are constants for all guns produced and even though producing more guns will cause higher costs of overhead, the cost per gun will remain constant. For every CNC machine and other machine they need to replace, those costs will be factored in on a depreciation formula just like everything else that goes through that building.
Don't forget that early in the video it talks of already supplying frames to another company! This isn't all brand new at every level.
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Keep in mind that Ruger is one of the most sophisticated manufacturing operations I've ever visited (and not just guns). They are state of the art and that requires world-class machine utilization and an easily reconfigurable line. Also, keep in mind that Ruger was already making 1911 parts for other people. Secondly, one of the huge advantages of a large, successful company like Ruger is that they can tool up when necessary.
Michael B
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Keep in mind that Ruger is one of the most sophisticated manufacturing operations I've ever visited (and not just guns). They are state of the art and that requires world-class machine utilization and an easily reconfigurable line. Also, keep in mind that Ruger was already making 1911 parts for other people. Secondly, one of the huge advantages of a large, successful company like Ruger is that they can tool up when necessary.
Michael B
Thanks MB!
That was the direction I was headed with my questions on Ruger's operation.
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Michael,what was wrong with the 8 round mag that didnt work right????? I didnt hear the whole reason. Rich642z
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I like the made in the USA, I dont like cheap imports. The only knock against my Springfields is that all there frames made in Brazil. Then again I own at least 12 different Rugers maybe one more wont hurt.
Made in US don't mean a thing when it comes to saving your life, I use what works best for me , I don't care where its made, if it will save my life.
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Made in US don't mean a thing when it comes to saving your life, I use what works best for me , I don't care where its made, if it will save my life.
that's great, one of the reasons Glocks sell so well. However all things being equal if you can buy an American product for the same or slightly more than a comparable product from, say the Philippines, then as an American you should choose the American product. I don't always blindly buy the American product but I do buy it whenever it makes sense. I can't bring myself to buy a 1911 that isn't American made, it just seems wrong. I recent;y got a Taurus 1911 in trade and as well built as it was (after I replaced all the internals including that f'ing hammer lock) I traded it away anyway because it just felt wrong. The 1911 is a symbol of American superiority and shouldn't be made outside of the US.
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Made in US don't mean a thing when it comes to saving your life, I use what works best for me , I don't care where its made, if it will save my life.
One reason nobody makes anything here anymore. And nobody has a job anymore either.
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Seeker Two beat me to making a comment about Glock making a 1911. ;D
Thanks....can't seem to find my post, though.....hmmm.....
I'm not saying that Ruger can't make a good 1911....in fact, I bet it'll be one of the best 1911's made....I'm just disappointed that Ruger decided to make a "me too" 1911 instead of using the opportunity to do something totally innovative....I mean, this is the company that made the LCP, the LCR, the SR9c, and the LC9.....I expected more from them.... :'(
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... instead of using the opportunity to do something totally innovative....I mean, this is the company that made the LCP, the LCR, the SR9c, and the LC9.....I expected more from them.... :'(
Hmmm, wait a minute:
LCP -- nope, a small, polymer .380 was already out there. Kel-Tec P38T. Ruger took an existing concept and made it with quality and reliable.
LCP -- ok, I'll give you that one. Innovative use of polymer in a revolver and beat S&W to the market.
SR9c -- let's see, a compact polymer 9mm. Only innovative if you discount that the baby Glocks, M&P9 compacts, SA XD9 were already out there.
LC9 -- again, sub-compact, polymer 9mm were already out there. KT PF9, Kahr, etc.
Don't get me wrong. Ruger is a great company. But their strength lies in making rugged, reliable guns, not necessarily super innovative ones. Based on that strategy, thies redition of the 1911 makes perfect sense.
They can be innovative, but it doesn't happen very often.
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Made in US don't mean a thing when it comes to saving your life, I use what works best for me , I don't care where its made, if it will save my life.
Not knocking you a bit but here's where I stand.
RIA is a Philippine company making 1911 handguns. It's an overseas company, no problem with that. Springfield, OTOH is a US company making guns and parts OVERSEAS, sending our work elsewhere and not using US labor.
Completely different for me. I'd buy a RIA 1911 over a Springfield for that reason alone. Hell, I'd buy a Glock out of Smyrna, GA before I bought a Springfield! Hell, I'd buy just about anything over a Springfield Armory gun at this point.
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You say that made in the US means nothing when it comes to the quality of the tool you stake your life on. Ok Glock,Walther,Sig Sauer, HK, these firms make great firearms and also benefit from countless years of experience and high quality standards. On the other hand would you trust your life to a Chinese knock off made of inferior steel and fit and finish.
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The whole "Buy American" argument is a bit pointless today with a global economy so much in play. What's "American" anyway? A Honda Accord made in Marysville, Ohio, or a Ford F-150 assembled in Mexico? Yes, you can argue the profits go to the home corporation. Honda in Japan, and Ford in Michigan. But that argument doesn't really hold water because of the diversification of employees each company has working for them. The American Honda worker in Marysville supports his family here, and buys goods and services in this country, not Japan. The opposite can be said of the Mexican worker Ford employs.
It's the same with guns. Is my Springfield Armory 1911 that is made by Imbrel in Brazil anymore American than my Glock made in Austria, but assembled in Smyrna, Georgia? With Ruger everything is made here, either in New England or else in Prescott, Arizona. Perhaps some parts they use such as springs, pins, etc. are imported, I don't know. The same with Remington and several others like Marlin.
But I think we've reached a point with guns that you really don't know where the money ultimately winds up, let alone who it really supports. Rock Island Armory 1911's are a good example. Is Rock Island Armory an American company producing their weapons in a factory in the Philippines? If so are they any different than Nike producing their line of tennis shoes in Viet Nam? This stuff gets more complicated every day. The old saying used to always be, "Follow the money". Now you have to be an Investment Banker to do that! Bill T.
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The whole "Buy American" argument is a bit pointless today with a global economy so much in play.
Really Bill?
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Really Bill?
Well, which one is the proper choice to support America, the F-150 or the Accord, or neither?
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Well, which one is the proper choice to support America, the F-150 or the Accord, or neither?
Personally, I wouldn't buy either.
I do my research and when possible I buy US manufactured goods. It's not easy....just yesterday I found a 100% US made clothing company that will get my money. Affordable as well....
The rest of you can do what you want, I don't give a flying f.u.c.k anymore about any ones opinion!
Sell America to the highest bidder...we're doomed as a society anyway!
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And....the F150 is built in Kansas City, MO...since 2008
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=29165
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Personally, I wouldn't buy either.
I do my research and when possible I buy US manufactured goods. It's not easy....just yesterday I found a 100% US made clothing company that will get my money. Affordable as well....
The rest of you can do what you want, I don't give a flying f.u.c.k anymore about any ones opinion!
Sell America to the highest bidder...we're doomed as a society anyway!
Timothy, if you have the information that can help one make a pro American choice please share it.
I do not know where to start to do the research on the sources of materials for any company, clothing or vehicle or firearm.
I am sure I, as well as others, would prefer to be able to make an informed pro American choice.
Thanks and take care.
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I'll start a new thread.....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=16252.msg208814#msg208814
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Solus....auto's are bit tougher.
I believe that to be considered "domestic" they only need be comprised of 60% domestically produced parts. That number used to be 80% until Congress decided to sell off the American production capacity to the foreigners under NAFTA....Japanese auto makers got smart when we started taxing the crap out of imports back in the day. By producing their cars here, they can reap the benefits of lower taxes and other things.
I have no problem with either auto mentioned earlier. I just don't need a full size truck and don't care much for the Accord's styling. I was looking at a CRV last year but they are still built in Japan and shipped here for sale. I'm back looking at vehicles again but it's not getting easier. The manufacturers are hiding this information from the consumer, it's not easy to find.
I'll more than likely buy something used anyway and then the point becomes moot in my opinion (which doesn't mean bupkus). My money is going to the dealer that has the car and I do the majority of my own maintenance.
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The whole "Buy American" argument is a bit pointless today with a global economy so much in play. What's "American" anyway? A Honda Accord made in Marysville, Ohio, or a Ford F-150 assembled in Mexico? Yes, you can argue the profits go to the home corporation. Honda in Japan, and Ford in Michigan. But that argument doesn't really hold water because of the diversification of employees each company has working for them. The American Honda worker in Marysville supports his family here, and buys goods and services in this country, not Japan. The opposite can be said of the Mexican worker Ford employs.
It's the same with guns. Is my Springfield Armory 1911 that is made by Imbrel in Brazil anymore American than my Glock made in Austria, but assembled in Smyrna, Georgia? With Ruger everything is made here, either in New England or else in Prescott, Arizona. Perhaps some parts they use such as springs, pins, etc. are imported, I don't know. The same with Remington and several others like Marlin.
But I think we've reached a point with guns that you really don't know where the money ultimately winds up, let alone who it really supports. Rock Island Armory 1911's are a good example. Is Rock Island Armory an American company producing their weapons in a factory in the Philippines? If so are they any different than Nike producing their line of tennis shoes in Viet Nam? This stuff gets more complicated every day. The old saying used to always be, "Follow the money". Now you have to be an Investment Banker to do that! Bill T.
I agree with the auto industry and many other industries that this is the case but there are still some pretty clearly identifiable American companies in the firearms industry. With 1911's you can buy a Kimber, Colt, STI, S&W and now Ruger and get an all American pistol. Remington is made here but is owned by a foreign investment group. Even with the Remington even with the money leaving the country at some point at least it was done with American workers. I personally wouldn't buy a Springfield 1911 even though the higher end models may have American frames because of their practice of doing so much business in Brazil. If I want an item and there's no American option, like a Glock (even though they're doing a lot more assembly in Georgia now so at least US workers benefit) I'll buy what I want. If there's an obvious American choice when I buy something then I will buy that, even at a slight premium.
The auto industry has been clouded for quite a while, not just Honda but Nissan, Toyota, Mazda (partially owned by Ford) and others have been assembling cars in the US for decades. There have been some research that shows that many "Japanese" cars have more American parts and labor hours than many "American" cars so this line is blurred. Thankfully the firearms industry is much clearer. It also uses a lot of skilled labor and higher paying jobs that we as consumers need to support and keep in the US.
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Remington is made here but is owned by a foreign investment group.
Remington Arms is owned by Cerberus Capitol Management which is headquartered in New York. They also own Marlin, Bushmaster, and DPMS. There may be others as well. They are buying firearm companies on an almost continual basis. Now, how many foreign investors do they have? I have no idea, and it would be all but impossible to find out. They are selling bundled investments in these gun companies under the title "Freedom Group". It gets confusing, and you damn near need a score card to keep up. Bill T.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Management
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Remington Arms is owned by Cerberus Capitol Management which is headquartered in New York. They also own Marlin, Bushmaster, and DPMS. There may be others as well. They are buying firearm companies on an almost continual basis. Now, how many foreign investors do they have? I have no idea, and it would be all but impossible to find out. They are selling bundled investments in these gun companies under the title "Freedom Group". It gets confusing, and you damn near need a score card to keep up. Bill T.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Management
I'm pretty sure they're the same company that either owns or owned Chrysler/Dodge as well. I remember when they took over Dodge the news reported they were based in Europe. Like you said it gets pretty confusing trying to keep track of it all.
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Cerberus sold Chrysler to Fiat. I don't know where they are based though.
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I'll start a new thread.....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=16252.msg208814#msg208814
Thanks, Tim. I see that thread as a continued resource for me at least.
I have noticed you have added postings to the originals in a category. That is also great for the future.
Thanks for your time and effort on this and for caring about it enough to do the work.
Take care.
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Cerberus sold Chrysler to Fiat. I don't know where they are based though.
I guess that explains why we're getting a Fiat dealership here in town where the Chrysler dealership had their used lot.
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Thanks, Tim.
Thanks for your time and effort on this and for caring about it enough to do the work.
Take care.
You're welcome!
It's not work if you enjoy the chase. That was about 20 minutes of going back to places I've already vetted out. Finding things made in the USA is nearly impossible without the internet access. Most sites will have link or other vehicle to sort their domestic products. You just have to look for them.
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Cerberus did in fact sell Chrysler to Fiat. Cerberus was not making enough money and will dump something if it is not making them money.
Cerberus also owns Hornady.
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Cerberus also owns Hornady.
Citation please...
I can't find any info on this.