The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: MaOfficer6707 on May 18, 2011, 06:08:45 PM
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Just picked up my new LC9. I got a 50 round box of the Winchester 147gr JHPs. This is the white box personal protection stuff. Is this good ammo or should I just plink with it and get something else? If this is the case what type of JHPs should I get?
~Thanks
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147 gr 9mm tends to be pretty wimpy stuff.
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What type should I go with?
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1st choice Corbon DPX
2nd choice Hornaday Critical Defense
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1st choice Corbon DPX
2nd choice Hornaday Critical Defense
What he said ^^^^
And make sure it feeds reliably.
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Thanks..... What grain?
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Does anybody really know the answer to this? I mean, I could go on about the wonders of Hydrashock or Golden Sabres, and others can talk about different brands. But do we really know what the hell we are talking about? To me, I have gotten a bit cynical about the whole thing. I'm thinking that if its a jacketed hollow point that feeds reliably and goes bang every time, I'm not sure that there is much of a difference. Am I wrong here?
FQ13 who doesn't want to be carry trash, but I'm not really sure how one quality brand is that much better than the other as long as your pistol likes it. ???
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I use Gold Dot in almost all my pistols if they group well. My P series Sigs love 'em, my 1911s not so much. (the 1911s LOVE WWB hps)
124gr in 9mm and 230 in 45, FTX or XTPs in the 44 mag.
I have some CorBon DPX 160s in 45acp that I haven't tested yet.
My usual test is 4 layers of cloth in front of a stack of water or milk jugs filled with water. If the hollow point plugs and acts like hardball, I don't use it for carry. It's not a test of how the bullet will react with human/animal flesh, just a medium to test one bullet against another. (I was not impressed by the expansion of Win PDX1, not enough upset and too deep penetration - but that was only tested once.)
So far it has served to keep me from being attacked by plastic jugs so I think the word has gotten out. ;)
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kmitch, that's good to hear! Those JUGS are dangerous.
Richard
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If it will cycle your pistol, 115 or 124 Corbon DPX
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1st choice Corbon DPX
2nd choice Hornaday Critical Defense
Exception being short barrel, go with Speer Gold Dot for short barrels.
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Thanks..... What grain?
Corbon DPX 115gr +P. Solid Copper 1250fps muzzle - Corbon test barrel
Hornaday Critical Defense 115gr 1140fps muzzle - Hornaday test barrel
In all the objective tests I have seen, Corbon has more reliable and greater expansion and penetration than the other ammunition tested. The Honraday Critical Defense is a good second and most often tests the best when Corbon DPX is not included.
The Corbon is more expensive and often unavailable due to it's high demand. The Hornaday CD is cheaper, more readily available and is not much behind in performance.
The muzzle velocity of these two rounds are fairly close, so "feel" should not be to far off when switching between them.
If you handload, you can make cheaper practice ammo using any hollow point bullet of 115gr. If you have a chronograph, you can duplicate the muzzle velocity of each in your personal weapon and practice with the identical feel as your carry ammo.
As stated by others, you will need to fire enough of each type in your pistol to insure total reliability.
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Does anybody really know the answer to this? I mean, I could go on about the wonders of Hydrashock or Golden Sabres, and others can talk about different brands. But do we really know what the hell we are talking about? To me, I have gotten a bit cynical about the whole thing. I'm thinking that if its a jacketed hollow point that feeds reliably and goes bang every time, I'm not sure that there is much of a difference. Am I wrong here?
FQ13 who doesn't want to be carry trash, but I'm not really sure how one quality brand is that much better than the other as long as your pistol likes it. ???
You could be wrong.
Expansion and penetration is what is required to maximize your chances of stopping the fight, and not having the other guy stop it for you.
The latest improvements in bullet design have allowed the 9mm to approach the performance of larger caliber rounds. However, reliable expansion and penetration are more important to it's success than in the larger calibers.
A hollow point that does not reliably expand and penetrate after passing through a layer or two of clothing leaves you will 9mm ball ammo, which shouldn't be anyone's choice for a self defense round.
In repeated tests using ballistic gelatin and passing through various media before entering the gelatin block, Corbon DPX is found to be the top performer. Whether the difference is worth the price, I can't say for you, but when my life is on the line, I'll take any small advantage I can get.
The current wisdom calls for 12 inches of penetration after passing through some type of clothing as being ideal. Expansion while maintaining the maximum penetration up to 12 inches is desired. And while 12 inches seems a lot, this is in pure gelatin, not a body with bone or other obstructions which will reduce actual penetration.
Penetration over 12 inches is viewed as non-desirable as it will increase the probability of the bullet passing through the target, causing collateral damage.
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Exception being short barrel, go with Speer Gold Dot for short barrels.
Why? What makes them better and in what weight? I started this thread being a cynic, weary of hearing about the "wonder bullet" of the month. Now, I am willing to bow to consensus and get the Hornady or corbons, as they aren't any more money than my current Golden Sabres. But if the Speer is better in short barrel, I'm all ears. Thanks Rastus.
FQ13
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Speer designed the cartridge around a snubby or short barrel and worked it till they reached maximum numbers and expansion. I've not tried any as I don't own a short barreled firearm at the moment.
I too use GS in my .45 but I change weights in the winter to a hotter 185 grain vs. the 230 grain. My pea brain and my own calculations on my super duper HP calculator with the most buttons I've ever seen told me to do so....varying mileage and all that...yes, I speak with my calculator... ;D
I like the Corbon, Hornady and most everything else too. My PARA hasn't ever coughed on anything. I'm certain it will continue to eat what I feed it.
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With competition and high prices for premium SD ammo, most of the top shelf brands will be effective considering the overwhelming ratio of SD shootings occur at 7 yds. or LESS.
The important thing to remember is have TOTAL RELIABILITY in your particular pistol. That does include "investing" NOT spending good money shooting SD ammo at the range to verify proper feed, function, accuracy, recoil, and ejection.
It's your life that will be reliant on your ammo, training, and accuracy.
The Military M9 Beretta, and ol' 1911 service pistols, dropped many a bad guy with ball ammo.... ;)
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Why? What makes them better and in what weight? I started this thread being a cynic, weary of hearing about the "wonder bullet" of the month. Now, I am willing to bow to consensus and get the Hornady or corbons, as they aren't any more money than my current Golden Sabres. But if the Speer is better in short barrel, I'm all ears. Thanks Rastus.
FQ13
I have short barrel Gold Dots in my G27.
The hollow point is much more pronounced that the regular GD. In the shorter barrel they opened up more than their regular GD brothers but still had the weight retention to penetrate.
Faster opening but still enough weight to penetrate. What's not to like? ;D The results of testing the 40 out of the short barrel were impressive. Which is why I carry them daily.
Midway only lists 124gr +p loads for the 9mm short barrel if that bears on your decision. I don't know if they make a non+p version.
I've used Golden Sabres in just about every caliber and never felt like I was short changing myself. I just found the Gold Dots to be more accurate in most of my guns.
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Why? What makes them better and in what weight? I started this thread being a cynic, weary of hearing about the "wonder bullet" of the month. Now, I am willing to bow to consensus and get the Hornady or corbons, as they aren't any more money than my current Golden Sabres. But if the Speer is better in short barrel, I'm all ears. Thanks Rastus.
FQ13
The Corbon ammo you want is it's DPX line.
If you find them close to the same price for other ammo, either you have found a great deal or the other ammo is over priced.
I've not found it being too close to other types in price.
at Midway
Corbon DPX 9mm 115gr +P $36.99/20 $1.85 each
Hornaday Critical Defense 115gr 16.99/25 $.68 each
Both happen to be in stock.
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First and foremost, find the ammo that functions reliably in your gun...whether that's a high-tech hollowpoint or just simple ball ammo. If it fires 50 rounds w/o a stoppage, it's a good round.
One type I prefer is the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball ammo...if a pistol functions with ball ammo, it usually will function with Pow'R'Ball.... http://www.gunblast.com/PowRBall.htm (http://www.gunblast.com/PowRBall.htm)
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I like the theory behind Critical Defense. That is what I currently carry in my .38 +p and .380 acp. As soon as I get lower on JHP and Hydro Shocks I am going to try some in the .45 acp. However, testing the 1911 for new ammo gets a little hard on the pocketbook!
With the cost the reason I haven't done a lot of changing in the .45 acp is that I figure that bullet leaves as big a hole without mushrooming, if the hollowpoint plugs up, as the .38 and .380 leave when all works correctly. That and the force the .45 acp hits with give a good advantage.
Maybe I should just recommend you carry some .45acp and a gun to burn it in ;)
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Does anybody really know the answer to this? I mean, I could go on about the wonders of Hydrashock or Golden Sabres, and others can talk about different brands. But do we really know what the hell we are talking about? To me, I have gotten a bit cynical about the whole thing. I'm thinking that if its a jacketed hollow point that feeds reliably and goes bang every time, I'm not sure that there is much of a difference. Am I wrong here?
FQ13 who doesn't want to be carry trash, but I'm not really sure how one quality brand is that much better than the other as long as your pistol likes it. ???
I agree with Quaker to a point here. That point is really "knowing" what and how a bullet will perform when coming in contact with the target. I know there's the ballistic gelatin test created by Dr. Martin Fackler but even he'll tell you it is an approximation of what happens when a bullet penetrates a human. So I guess I'm saying nothing is 100%.
I use the Winchester 147 gr PDX1 rounds in my 9mm and as far as velocity they are traveling about 950 fps +/-. I would say to MaOfficer to try several different brands and test them using this procedure:
From low ready/high ready with your support hand only.
Fire 6 rounds into an 8" circle at 10 yards in 3 seconds.
The purpose for me is to see if I can control the gun with this round with my support hand to see if I can get "combat accurate" hits on a target in a short period of time. If the gun is snapping so badly that you can not keep the rounds on target, try another.
Disclaimer: I am definitely not an expert on this so I know there is much to be improved on with my approach; but there is some logic to it.
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I agree with Quaker to a point here. That point is really "knowing" what and how a bullet will perform when coming in contact with the target. I know there's the ballistic gelatin test created by Dr. Martin Fackler but even he'll tell you it is an approximation of what happens when a bullet penetrates a human. So I guess I'm saying nothing is 100%.
I use the Winchester 147 gr PDX1 rounds in my 9mm and as far as velocity they are traveling about 950 fps +/-. I would say to MaOfficer to try several different brands and test them using this procedure:
From low ready/high ready with your support hand only.
Fire 6 rounds into an 8" circle at 10 yards in 3 seconds.
The purpose for me is to see if I can control the gun with this round with my support hand to see if I can get "combat accurate" hits on a target in a short period of time. If the gun is snapping so badly that you can not keep the rounds on target, try another.
Disclaimer: I am definitely not an expert on this so I know there is much to be improved on with my approach; but there is some logic to it.
True, but ballistic gelatin is the best approximation we have readily available. If we could use cadavers, or live bodies we might get a better approximation...but maybe not...all the variables of what the shot passed through on it's way to vital organs may make it tough to determine consistent performance, where the gelatin will give consistent medium.
This procedure will give a standard measure with which to compare different configurations.
After you have a relative ranking of different bullet configurations, you then need to do your testing for total reliability and what ever degree of accuracy you feel you need for what you want to accomplish.
I'll stick with the gelatin results by reliable testers to sort my preference order, then choose the highest one that meets my reliability, accuracy, usability and affordability criteria.
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Thanks for all the info!
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Since I CCW & work part time as armed security, I carry what the Security Co. says I must which is Speer Gold Dot because that's what Den. PD. uses. So I use what I have to.
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Gold Dot 124gr +p is the most used load by LE and security forces. The CorBon is a good load but I like using the Gold Dot's because it's unlikely that this load will ever be called into question in court in a self defense situation since it's basically LE endorsed.
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I just picked up a couple boxes of Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense series 9mm. It has better numbers than Hornady CD or TAP (non +P). I just don't know anything more about them beyond the numbers. I've read that they share many commonalities with the Golden Sabre series. Any thoughts?
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Here's a web site that is devoted to ballistics
http://www.brassfetcher.com
Take a look at some his ballistic tests of 9mm ammo. And be sure to look at the high speed video too; I like the one on 147 gr. Black Talon.
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Here's a web site that is devoted to ballistics
http://www.brassfetcher.com
Take a look at some his ballistic tests of 9mm ammo. And be sure to look at the high speed video too; I like the one on 147 gr. Black Talon.
Aren't those made under a different name now, after all the hoopla about cops using "killer bullets" a few years ago?
FQ13 who wonders why you'd use a bullet that wasn't designed to kill. ::)
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Aren't those made under a different name now, after all the hoopla about cops using "killer bullets" a few years ago?
FQ13 who wonders why you'd use a bullet that wasn't designed to kill. ::)
The PDX1 rounds I carry look very similar to them, except for the black coating. I think they changed the name to Ranger TSX, or something like that, for LEOs.
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I just picked up a couple boxes of Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense series 9mm. It has better numbers than Hornady CD or TAP (non +P). I just don't know anything more about them beyond the numbers. I've read that they share many commonalities with the Golden Sabre series. Any thoughts?
By numbers do you mean muzzle velocity and energy or do you include gelatin penetration and expansion also?
Thanks and take care.
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The PDX1 rounds I carry look very similar to them, except for the black coating. I think they changed the name to Ranger TSX, or something like that, for LEOs.
What I've heard is that they changed the name to Ranger XST....which is said to mean eXact Same Thing.
I still have several boxes of Black Talon in 40S&W and 45ACP.
My guess is newer ammunition will out perform them but I have not seen any comparison.
I think I'm hanging on to them because they are the ones that "started it all" or, at least, are the ones that made it all a media circus.
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The Military M9 Beretta, and ol' 1911 service pistols, dropped many a bad guy with ball ammo.... ;)
Don't forget all the Europeans with their Hi-Powers and Israelis with Glocks and Jerichos.
I think American gun enthusiasts in and out of uniform tend to worry overmuch about this stuff. A healthy dose of marketing by the ammo companies doesn't hurt either. IMO pick any current JHP load that gives 100% reliable feeding, extraction and ejection over a few hundred rounds along with acceptable accuracy and call it a day. Don't fret about small increments of expansion or penetration in ballistic gelatin.
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If you get shot in a vital organ (heart, for example) its not really gonna matter is one round has 40 ft. lbs of pressure over another, or if it can go thru 14 inches of gelatin instead on 12. Bad Guy isnt likely to get up and say "Man Im glad that brand x ammo is 100 fps slower than brand y, I thought I was fixin' to get my birth certificate cancelled.." (Yes im cynical on the topic as well.) Find what feeds and cycles well, and stay with something you trust. My personal choice is Golden Sabres, just cause they were readily available and Ive never had a malfunction in my LCP. I just got a M&P 9c today, and its off to test their performance there too.
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In another thread on the 10mm, an article about the Miami Shootings of FBI officers was reported.
It was found that marksmanship of the FBI agents was not faulty and that the bad guys had taken multiple hits with 9mm ammo without going down.
Sure, lots of bad guys have gone down to ball ammo, but those aren't what we are concerned about. It's the ones that don't go down that cause the problem...and too many of them don't when less effective ammo us used.
And yes...if a round manages to penetrate to a vital organ, it has done it's job, but if I use ammo that gives me a 10 to 15% increase in the chance that it will penetrate to that vital organ, I'll take those odds.
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And yes...if a round manages to penetrate to a vital organ, it has done it's job, but if I use ammo that gives me a 10 to 15% increase in the chance that it will penetrate to that vital organ, I'll take those odds.
Good point when you put it in that light.
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Good point when you put it in that light.
There aren't many currently manufactured ammo choices, 9mm and larger, that won't meet or exceed the FBI's magic 12" in ballistic gelatin. Adequate penetration with expansion just isn't an issue any more.
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The age old question:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
Availability [You have to have it with you.]
Reliability [It has to 'go bang.']
Penetration [It has to reach important bits.]
Placement [You have to hit important bits.]
Guess which rd. has ended the lives of the most people? Not in combat, or at war?
Times up.....
The .22. Closely followed by the .25 and .38
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::) What a subject! The best 9mm carry ammo is anything in .45 caliber that fits in a real gun. ;D ;D ;D
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The age old question:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
Availability [You have to have it with you.]
Reliability [It has to 'go bang.']
Penetration [It has to reach important bits.]
Placement [You have to hit important bits.]
Guess which rd. has ended the lives of the most people? Not in combat, or at war?
Times up.....
The .22. Closely followed by the .25 and .38
WOW twyacht... I can't even begin to tell you how bad a place that is to go with this crowd. According to this entire board .22 wouldn't suffice to kill a mosquito on the end of the barrel! Weren't you here for all that? :o :o :o
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The age old question:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
Availability [You have to have it with you.]
Reliability [It has to 'go bang.']
Penetration [It has to reach important bits.]
Placement [You have to hit important bits.]
Guess which rd. has ended the lives of the most people? Not in combat, or at war?
Times up.....
The .22. Closely followed by the .25 and .38
6" penetration in gelatin will not reliably reach vital organs in a human target. No matter what the expansion or damage it does, it is not a dependable fight stopper.
12" in gelatin will greatly increase the chances of penetrating enough to reach vital organs, but without expansion, you would want to start with a .45...they have not been known to shrink.
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WOW twyacht... I can't even begin to tell you how bad a place that is to go with this crowd. According to this entire board .22 wouldn't suffice to kill a mosquito on the end of the barrel! Weren't you here for all that? :o :o :o
If you take into consideration that the main reason the .22 is a "top killer" is just simply a matter of overwhelming numbers, ie: there are just plainly more of them in peoples possession than any other caliber.......so statistics would warrant that more folks are shot by them, and therefore killed by them.
I still wouldn't make the .22 my top choice as a SD round.
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And, I'd figure that most of the deaths by .22 rimfire are from a rifle, not a pee shooter such as that little Beretta...BIG difference!
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FYI, Michael covers this in a recent blog: http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2011/07/power.html (http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2011/07/power.html)
He references this article: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866 (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866) which actually covers how some of the data is "selected" for inclusion in the studies.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
I tend to fall into the "any good "dum dum" round and hit something vital" camp.
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I was watching one of the shows on Wednesday Night On The Range, and someone quoted someone (I don't remember #1 and they couldn't remember #2) and I paraphrase:
While your wondering if your 9mm bullet will expand, I know my .45 will not shrink.
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While your wondering if your 9mm bullet will expand, I know my .45 will not shrink.
;D
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While your wondering if your 9mm bullet will expand, I know my .45 will not shrink.
Then again.....I've never met anyone who was OK with having ONE .355" hole in their chest....much less multiple ones....
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Then again.....I've never met anyone who was OK with having ONE .355" hole in their chest....much less multiple ones....
I can say the same about the .45. However, I can say that I have talked to people that have had .22 and several #6 and #4 holes.
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(http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp280/ford7379trucks/motivator7bcf7b031e4bc4f6da08be6b2e7a88d04e6b8d28.jpg)
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And there's this old poster.
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The age old question:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
Availability [You have to have it with you.]
Reliability [It has to 'go bang.']
Penetration [It has to reach important bits.]
Placement [You have to hit important bits.]
Guess which rd. has ended the lives of the most people? Not in combat, or at war?
Times up.....
The .22. Closely followed by the .25 and .38
2 comments, First, availability/affordability have more to do with those numbers than suitability.
Second, this is comparing apples and oranges, the objective in SD is to STOP THE ATTACKER, in other words it is more effective if he runs away screaming like a girl than if he bleeds out 10 minutes after beating you to death.
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Then again.....I've never met anyone who was OK with having ONE .355" hole in their chest....much less multiple ones....
I'd not be ok with any sized hole in my chest, but given the choice, I'd choose to be shot with a .22 short...or less
If given the choice, would you choose 9mm ball or 9mm Corbon DPX, same shooter, same weapon?
Choices get tougher when it is, say, .40SW CorBon DPX or .45APC ball. That Corbon reliably penetrates deep and expands beyond .45.
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If given the choice, would you choose 9mm ball or 9mm Corbon DPX, same shooter, same weapon?
If you're asking which one I'd rather shoot a bad guy with, I'd go with whichever worked reliably in my pistol....most of the time I split the difference and use CorBon Pow'R'Ball.....
If you're asking which one I'd rather be shot with.....the answer is NEITHER....deep penetrating holes are something I can definitely live without....
Now, if the question is which ball ammo I'd rather have.....I'll choose 9mm ball over .45ACP ball any day....esp. considering that 9mm ball penetrates deeper and punctures intermediate barriers a lot better than .45ACP ball.....