The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: BAC on July 04, 2012, 08:44:23 AM
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http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-drill-sergeant-competition-20120704,0,6522586.story (http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-drill-sergeant-competition-20120704,0,6522586.story)
Army drill sergeants emphasize importance of thinking, teaching in contest to identify best
BROCK VERGAKIS Associated Press
3:18 a.m. EDT, July 4, 2012
NEWPORT NEWS, Va. (AP) — Army Staff Sgt. Jeffrey Heilman kneeled down in a wooded section of Fort Eustis and calmly told six soldiers he had never met before to prepare: They might find an improvised explosive device on their way to relieve some other soldiers at a checkpoint.
"If you encounter an IED before it explodes, make sure you don't make a ruckus. Don't scream," Heilman said as the young soldiers listened intently. "Remember someone put that thing there. They're trying to kill you and if you react to it and they know that you reacted to it, they're going to try their best to get whatever result they can. You might be running away from it but they're still going to blow it up and try to catch you."
Less than a foot away, an evaluator from the Army's Training and Doctrine Command stood with a clipboard in hand and listened to every word Heilman said, evaluating whether he had the right leadership and critical thinking skills to be named the Army's Drill Sergeant of the Year.
Noticeably absent from the test scenarios last week were any of the yelling, screaming and order-barking associated with drill sergeants in popular culture. To be sure, Army drill sergeants can still instill fear in new recruits. But as the Army focuses more on developing the critical thinking skills of its soldiers and less on rote memorization and one-size-fits-all training, some of their top drill sergeants say bellowing is a last resort.
"I really consider myself a new generation of drill instructor. I mean, unless you do something really, really out of place I don't think there's any need to do the whole yelling and screaming," said Staff Sgt. Danneit R. Disla, who is part of the 98th Reserve Division based in Rochester, N.Y. "I just think if you talk to them like a person, like a man, they will act like a man, like a grown man."
There are about 2,400 drill sergeants in the active duty ranks and about 3,000 in the Army Reserves. Six drill sergeants spent the past week in a physically and mentally grueling competition to win top honors in their division, writing essays, answering questions and marching for miles with 50 pound rucksacks on their backs, all the while never knowing what's coming next.
Heilman was named the winner Friday. He will spend a year assigned to the Initial Military Training Center of Excellence, part of the Training and Doctrine Command, where they will help shape the future of the Army. The new breed of drill sergeants means a quiet and unassuming soldier — who can still be vocal when he or she needs to be — is just as effective as the classic drill sergeant.
Sgt. 1st Class Adam McQuiston, who is based at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo., acknowledged being shy before becoming a drill sergeant. He said he's fought that by constantly leading and teaching new recruits, but that doesn't mean he has to be loud.
"Maybe there's a time for the screaming and yelling and constant pushing, but you also need to be that expert trainer at those skills they're going to need out of basic training," McQuiston said.
Part of the drill sergeants' evaluation focused on what they would do if a trainee refused to do as they were told. One drill sergeant tackled the scenario by simply saying "let's talk" and listening to the recruit and then providing mentoring.
The top drill instructors, who each won competitions at the posts where they're based, say being a trainer who excels means finding a way to relate to individual soldiers who come from a variety of backgrounds.
"You have to realize that not every single trainee that you deal with is going to be the same. They're all not all going to relate, take the information the same and relate the same," said Staff Sgt. Jarod Moss, a reservist from Dallas who is part of the 95th Reserve Division based at Lawton, Okla. "Look at it as a different way to teach it."
Underscoring the importance of being able to relate to soldiers, the drill sergeants were evaluated on the correct actions to take in response to a role-playing soldier who was suspected as suicidal.
Among other things, the drill sergeants were also evaluated on how to move soldiers under fire to cover and then return fire, how they would teach soldiers how to enter and clear a room and how to conduct a medical evaluation.
"You don't really just want the most physically fit, or just the smartest. It's got to be a very well-rounded, intelligent, articulate individual that's going to get through this. Much like our basic training has changed from being a mindless basic training, really all about blind obedience, to more of teaching them to think and make decisions under stress," said Command Sgt. Maj. John R. Calpena from Fort Eustis. "In the fight they're in they can't be looking back for the sergeant to know what they're going to do when they come under fire in a marketplace. They have to make a decision, shoot or don't shoot and report. Same with our drill sergeants."
That's not to say physical endurance isn't still important.
On the third day of the competition following a run through an obstacle course filled with ditches, walls and cargo nets similar to the ones recruits go through, McQuiston was so exhausted that he vomited.
Heilman, who is stationed at Fort Jackson outside of Columbia, S.C. and is originally from Philadelphia, complained of having blisters on his feet the size of half-dollars.
"My feet are pretty much just nubs, but I'm able to push through it. Pain, shmain. I don't care. It's a competition," he said during a brief break. "I'm just going to keep pushing until they tell me I have to stop or until I fall over and stop, but I'm not going to quit."
I'm surprised none of the DIs said "You have to pick your battles." What's next? Everyone gets a trophy at the end of basic. If a soldier doesn't meet the requirements they still pass, because the Army doesn't want them to feel bad about themselves. No more soldier of the cycle award, because you're all winners!
Pisses me off. At least we still have the Marines.
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http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-drill-sergeant-competition-20120704,0,6522586.story (http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-drill-sergeant-competition-20120704,0,6522586.story)
I'm surprised none of the DIs said "You have to pick your battles." What's next? Everyone gets a trophy at the end of basic. If a soldier doesn't meet the requirements they still pass, because the Army doesn't want them to feel bad about themselves. No more soldier of the cycle award, because you're all winners!
Pisses me off. At least we still have the Marines.
Actually, that's been going on for years. They've greatly reduced the physical requirements for some of the armed forces in order to cater to the lowest common denominator! It started when I was in basic in 1975 or earlier. It's why you have 5'0", 90 to 120 lb soldiers, sailors, airmen and even Marines of both genders.
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http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-drill-sergeant-competition-20120704,0,6522586.story (http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-drill-sergeant-competition-20120704,0,6522586.story)
I'm surprised none of the DIs said "You have to pick your battles." What's next? Everyone gets a trophy at the end of basic. If a soldier doesn't meet the requirements they still pass, because the Army doesn't want them to feel bad about themselves. No more soldier of the cycle award, because you're all winners!
Pisses me off. At least we still have the Marines.
The Marines do. It's called the EGA and they earn it - not awarded - at the end of The Crucible!
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All of the Services have some form of award for graduating Boot. Marines get to wear the EGA, Sailors go from a Recruit ballcap to one that says Navy for example. The Marines have been "mentoring and guiding" vice yelling for a while now too. They are finding they get better results. My CCs didn't yell and scream at us while our sister company was always being cycled and screamed at. They had a bunch of failures and wash-outs and we had the highest average scores for the PT and knowledge tests.
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Hell, my CC was a Senior Chief of some sort and he wasn't a hard ass by any standard. Our DI's or whatever you call them in the Navy weren't too hard on those that toed the line either but they were hard on those that stepped out or over the line. We were a company of techy geeks and of those 76 young men I went to boot with, I've never seen or heard from any of them since. Do the Marines still train and move on as a cohesive company of men? I don't know...the Navy was different in that you'd probably never see those men again!
I did what I was told and helped those sailors that asked for help because I'd had a father and two brothers that had gone before me! I knew what to expect, what to do and how to get through boot. Physically, it wasn't much harder than JV football practice but the mental stuff could get to some guys. I did well enough to get a meritorious promotion to E2 and about 5 bucks more a month in pay...a lot less than I was charging to spit shine a pair of boondockers!
;D
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OK, so I guess I didn't phrase it properly. My remark about everyone getting a trophy was in reference to little league. You know, leagues that don't keep score (because you're all winners!), and at the end of the season everyone gets a trophy (because you're all winners!). Or the Junior High school in my town, that has 30+ members on the cheerleading squad. Why? Because everyone who tries out makes the team (because...). My bad.
So you guys are Ok with a DI having a chat and some coffee cake with a recruit that disobeys an order? 'Cause nobody mentioned that. That's the part that got my blood pressure up. Interesting.
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So you guys are Ok with a DI having a chat and some coffee cake with a recruit that disobeys an order? Interesting.
No! I'm not!
Sorry if it seemed that way. I was just suggesting that it's nothing new though it appears to be getting worse. I would have never considered having a heart to heart with my DI in boot. After that though, you're expected to use the chain of command, starting with your immediate supervisor who may or may not be your friend. I wasn't in the "regular" Navy so my personal experiences were far different than most sailors. We were a very, very small community.
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No! I'm not!
Sorry if it seemed that way. I was just suggesting that it's nothing new though it appears to be getting worse. I would have never considered having a heart to heart with my DI in boot. After that though, you're expected to use the chain of command, starting with you're immediate supervisor who may or may not be your friend. I wasn't in the "regular" Navy so my personal experiences were far different than most sailors. We were a very, very small community.
Phew! That's a relief. I was starting to think I was on the wrong forum. I went through BCT in '81 and the DIs were still pissed they couldn't touch the recruits any more. One guy who had a real discipline problem did "fall" down the stairs once, though. I guess the coffee cake didn't work. ;D
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My DI in Army Basic was Sgt. Golding.
We learned early on that he was doing the best he could to make us the best we could be. I know it sounds like a recruitment poster, but it was true.
I am sure he had to "dress down" someone in the platoon, but I do not recall the event. He did yell at those not moving fast enough...telling them to "pick it up" or "hustle" or what ever by name. And he would be on your tail till you didn't give it your all. But I don't remember him ever "shaming" one of us.
We has a guy in our platoon, named Slywinski or something. The DI called him Slick Whiskey. The guy was thin and could never stay in step. The DI would remind him regularly to pay attention. One day, Slick Whiskey broke down and started crying. The DI pulled him out of ranks and gave us an About Face. I peeked and he had his arm around the guys shoulder, I guess explaining what the DI's purpose was with training new troops.
I don't know if he did any good, but Slick Whiskey bucked up and did somewhat better....and there were very few NCO's or Officers I came to respect more than Sgt. Golding.
This was in June of 1965.
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Senior Drill instructor 1st Sgt Rainy, His motto was "You may not be the sharpest platoon to ever graduate Parris Island, but you will damn well be the fittest."
This was explained to us, ( and every other person on PI who was not deaf or dead ) while we enjoyed the educational benefits of push ups, "until he got tired".
We took every one of the inter platoon competitions.
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I worked out more than most in boot out of boredom! Something to do between smoke breaks...we had one guy who was such a load that he couldn't do 6 pull ups until the day he actually HAD to do it to graduate. I think they actually lowered the bar for him...
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So you guys are Ok with a DI having a chat and some coffee cake with a recruit that disobeys an order? 'Cause nobody mentioned that. That's the part that got my blood pressure up. Interesting.
Read it again. At no point does it say the DIs are being touchy-feely. There's a huge difference between "mentoring" and being their friend.
"You have to realize that not every single trainee that you deal with is going to be the same. They're all not all going to relate, take the information the same and relate the same," said Staff Sgt. Jarod Moss, a reservist from Dallas who is part of the 95th Reserve Division based at Lawton, Okla. "Look at it as a different way to teach it."√
Also disobeying an order and requiring "remediation" are two distinct scenarios too. I'll talk with someone that "doesn't get it" but stand by I they actually say "I'm not going to..."
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Part of the drill sergeants' evaluation focused on what they would do if a trainee refused to do as they were told. One drill sergeant tackled the scenario by simply saying "let's talk" and listening to the recruit and then providing mentoring.
Not touchy-feely at all. No, not at all.
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I'm fine with it.
The more sissified the better .
If it ever comes that "UN" troops are on American streets, it will be these armed flower children under the blue helmets.
The more they concentrate on "social conscience" the better my odds of survival.
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I got my a$$ chewed on by a 1st Sgt. in Iraq because I did not talk to my soldiers about their feelings. He told me that the old Army guys like me were a dying breed and were no longer needed. We are becoming a better Army without all of the screaming and yelling. No do not smoke them or punish them talk to them. Old school worked on me and I had one crusty NCO that was a Vietnam vet and he got hands on knocking the smarts out of you. I guess that I am going to retire here soon and not have to worry about that anymore.
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I got my a$$ chewed on by a 1st Sgt. in Iraq because I did not talk to my soldiers about their feelings. He told me that the old Army guys like me were a dying breed and were no longer needed. We are becoming a better Army without all of the screaming and yelling. No do not smoke them or punish them talk to them. Old school worked on me and I had one crusty NCO that was a Vietnam vet and he got hands on knocking the smarts out of you. I guess that I am going to retire here soon and not have to worry about that anymore.
Is that why we beat 3 industrialized nations in 4 years with hollering, screaming and an occasional thumping, but we have accomplished nothing in 10 years against a bunch of camel humping hill billies ?
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Is that why we beat 3 industrialized nations in 4 years with hollering, screaming and an occasional thumping, but we have accomplished nothing in 10 years against a bunch of camel humping hill billies ?
Following that logic Tom, we got our a$$'s handed to us while DIs COULD yell and beat Recriuts by a bunch of rice muching hillbillies for almost 15 years.
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Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan were and are un-winable and not worth one single American life!
I do wonder though about the suicide rates over the last ten years in the military. That is a disturbing trend for our troops!
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Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan were and are un-winable and not worth one single American life!
I do wonder though about the suicide rates over the last ten years in the military. That is a disturbing trend for our troops!
Survivors guilt is fairly common with in combat units, look at the rates after service in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam.
All 3 of those wars were very winnable.
Just not by politicians.
Same with Afghanistan, if we had ever had a clearly defined objective it could have been achieved.
Just not by touchy feely political faggots who are more concerned with the "feelings" of the enemy than they are with the survival of our own troops.
Following that logic Tom, we got our a$$'s handed to us while DIs COULD yell and beat Recriuts by a bunch of rice muching hillbillies for almost 15 years.
Actually it holds together J.
They were still allowed to thump recruits during Korea and in order for Truman to snatch stalemate from the jaws of victory he had to relieve MacArthur, experiment with desegregation, and involve the UN.
They stopped thumping recruits officially in the mid 50's, the result was we haven't won a war since.
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My point is that to blame loosing a fight on the way Servicemembers were trained in Boot Camp is not only wrong, its offensive. There is ample proof to show that the political manipulation by the civilian leadership is the cause, not the ability of a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine to think with his head and get the job done that they were ordered to do. That's part of the reason "thumping" Recruits is frowned upon now.
Today's Recruits are smarter and better educated than anytime in our nations history. They also don't HAVE to be there. Retirement beniftis have gone to $h!t. They're forcing experienced personnel out at 10-14 years to get under the mandated force strengths. There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to stay for a full 20 any more unless your already at 15+. If you spend the first two years of an enlistment getting screamed at and thrown around, when you can easily get out and get better pay and benifits on the outside, would you stay?
So a DI can't beat a Recruit into submission, maybe they have to be a little more teacher than disciplinarian. So what? That 18-19 y/o kid didn't have to sign up. Also that same Recruit is given the tools to think on his feet and look at the problem logically instead of just blindly jumping in. Last time I checked that is what can and will save your a$$ in combat. At the same time washout rates have gone down while, if you really look at them, the requirements have stayed basically the same over the last few years. Yes, some of the physical requrements have been modified, but not drastically. Navy Physical Readiness standards have been getting increasingly harder not easier since I joined, not just because I'm officially old now. There is a lot more mental testing too. The desire is for a Servicemember that can not only fight, but be diplomatic and able to make a desicion on thier own. Basic combat hasn't changed in a millenia. Fight the enemy, protect your buddy, get home alive. What has changed is at what level decisions are made and how fast they have to be made.
Data is being pushed to a much lower level than it ever has. Intel that in the 50-60s MIGHT be seen at the Battalion level is now on the individual squad's mobile device. Division leadership can have near-real-time information on individual fire teams. Stuff that was Buck Rodgers fantasy is a reality and it takes a different type of Servicemember to use it. In this age critical thinking skills are much more important than being a mindless drone. NCOs are making stategic plans that would have only been made at the Company or higher level. There are plenty of places that an NCO is the senior person on the ground. Delaying a decision to get higher authority on the radio could have far-ranging implications.
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J, I have to ask you, have you ever REALLY thought about what made Marines in the Pacific wade through a 1/2 of water, often over their heads under heavy fire from machine guns and artillery ?
They were more afraid of their NCO's than they were of the Japanese.
Same was true of the "Blitzkrieg", same was true of the Japanese.
True the wars have actually been lost due to political meddling, but this is nothing but another face of the same coin.
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The same reason we have troopers walking into unkown villages in 20-120 deg heat down a stretch of road that had a dozen IEDs the day before that will probably have at least that many today. For the guys next to them.
That being afraid of the NCOs is a bunch of crap. Sure there was some that could breath fire and scare the rest of them but it's a level of respect, not fear. It's amazing what you can get done with respect instead of screaming. The best leaders aren't the loudest, they were fair. Hell, even Patton was known to sit down and talk with troops one on one. Yes, he could swear up a storm and was short tempered, but he was also smart enough not to if he didn't have to.
The Russians had to motivate at the end of a rifle, and we know how well that turned out.
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The same reason we have troopers walking into unkown villages in 20-120 deg heat down a stretch of road that had a dozen IEDs the day before that will probably have at least that many today. For the guys next to them.
That being afraid of the NCOs is a bunch of crap. Sure there was some that could breath fire and scare the rest of them but it's a level of respect, not fear. It's amazing what you can get done with respect instead of screaming. The best leaders aren't the loudest, they were fair. Hell, even Patton was known to sit down and talk with troops one on one. Yes, he could swear up a storm and was short tempered, but he was also smart enough not to if he didn't have to.
The Russians had to motivate at the end of a rifle, and we know how well that turned out.
They drove the Germans from the Crimea all the way back to Berlin.
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...and lost an entire generation in the process, no thanks
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Oh I talked to my soldiers a lot but there are times that screaming and yelling are necessary. When I catch them screwing off or committing an illegal act (fraternization, dereliction of duty ect. ) I was pissed and these babies of the 1sg were untouchable. He would only punish the ones that he did not like. I still punished all of them the same regardless and I took the a$$ chewing’s for messing with his favorites. When I was a private or buck sergeant I never got to talk to the Commander or 1sg. I knew better because you platoon sergeant would know about it real soon and him and your squad leader would have your arse in a hurt locker quick time. I had several of my specialist and squad leaders thank me for being hard but fair to everyone they appreciated it and respected me for it. The four that the 1sg babied they hate me and still bad mouth me to everyone. I would catch this 1sg in the smoke break area talking to these four dirtbags all the time. He never talked to any of my other soldiers at all. The four could walk in to his office and talk to him anytime they wanted to. My squad leaders were not allowed to talk to him or walk into his office without me being present or heads would roll. He fraternized with the four all the time. He played favorites and a lot of soldiers hate him for it and will never respect him at all. They have to respect the rank but not the man.