The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on February 12, 2013, 06:54:44 PM
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I was reading today's Examiner article by David Codrea and while the article topic has focus on racial aspects, there are several points made from a quoted blog article about lessons that can be garnered from the ongoing incident.
“It is important, up front, to remind ourselves of what we don't know at this stage about Christopher Dorner's one-man guerrilla war against the LAPD,” Mike Vanderboegh of the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog wrote in a post today before the late-breaking developments. “He may be lying dead, frozen up in the mountains. He may be lying low in a hideaway in South Central, awaiting his next chance to strike.
It is this ‘ghost in the machine’ that has gripped the imaginations of the LAPD and motivated them to shoot up innocent newspaper delivery ladies and make other panicky moves that telegraph just how shaken they are by the fact that one of their "Only Ones" is doing this to them. The law enforcement bureaucracy likes to believe that they, personally, are untouchable. Dorner has proven the lie and it scares the bejeezus out of them.
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“One man -- ONE MAN -- has for almost a week frightened and tied up the law enforcement resources of an entire state (and I'm sure the Feds are making their contributions behind the scenes too),” Vanderboegh observed. “This is a cautionary tale for any citizen disarmament advocate who blithely assumes (as stupidly as the LAPD was last week) that the ‘authorities’ are up the challenges of the 4GW civil war that their appetites seem bent upon creating.
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“If the ghost in the LAPD machine teaches anything, it is that the resources of the modern surveillance police state are not even up to the challenge of one madman, let alone a determined, thinking minority,” Vanderboegh concluded.
http://www.examiner.com/article/ghost-dorner-provides-cautionary-tale-as-black-community-seeks-answers
The Killer Ghost in the Machine. Dorner's one-man guerrilla war against the LAPD is a cautionary tale for citizen disarmament advocates.
The Los Angeles Police Department has been stretched to the limit after five days hunting for Christopher Dorner, America's most wanted man, as he seemingly vanishes into thin air.
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http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-killer-ghost-in-machine-dorners-one.html
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Apparently the lesson for Dorner was: Darwin wins.
Sucker is believed to have been burned to death in the cabin where he was holding out.
On the up side, he did manage to shoot a reporter before they got him.
Down side there is the reporter is expected to recover.
Lesson for future Dorners is: Don't mess with the LAPD--they are the biggest gang in the neighborhood.
Crusader Rabbit
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“He may be lying dead, frozen up in the mountains. He may be lying low in a hideaway in South Central, awaiting his next chance to strike."
Umm, actually, he was in a house on Club View Dr., across the street from the Command Post...
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/859801_4726630236711_968451547_o.jpg)
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So what your saying is he was sitting nice and warm, watching the big shots come and go while every one else froze their butts off on the mountain ?
Good bad or indifferent, you have to love that. ;D
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So....Rambo had it all wrong?
DAMN.
;)
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So what your saying is he was sitting nice and warm, watching the big shots come and go while every one else froze their butts off on the mountain ?
Good bad or indifferent, you have to love that. ;D
Pretty much. People are absolutely clueless about their own safety, as MB often says in his podcasts. I live about 12 blocks from here and I've been on red alert the entire time. Meanwhile, school was cancelled on Friday, and yet lots of parents allowed their kids to go snowboarding here, and the place was packed on Saturday!
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With talk about a potential 'civil' (?) war in the future, I was kinda looking at it from the angle of the warning mentioned in the blog article.
Seeing what one man did to disrupt a state, a small group of determined patriots (say, the 3%) might have more of an advantage than initially thought, considering:
One man -- ONE MAN -- has for almost a week frightened and tied up the law enforcement resources of an entire state (and I'm sure the Feds are making their contributions behind the scenes too),” Vanderboegh observed. “This is a cautionary tale for any citizen disarmament advocate who blithely assumes (as stupidly as the LAPD was last week) that the ‘authorities’ are up the challenges of the 4GW civil war that their appetites seem bent upon creating."
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With talk about a potential 'civil' (?) war in the future, I was kinda looking at it from the angle of the warning mentioned in the blog article.
Seeing what one man did to disrupt a state, a small group of determined patriots (say, the 3%) might have more of an advantage than initially thought, considering:
Yes, they will have more of an advantage. But unless it's all-out civil war/WROL, they will still likely wind up in the same untimely fate.
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Yes, they will have more of an advantage. But unless it's all-out civil war/WROL, they will still likely wind up in the same untimely fate.
Yep.... all or nothing..... Individuals or small groups will play out like Waco or Ruby Ridge.... where the small pocket of 'radical resistance' or 'domestic terrorist' is quelled.
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my take away from this....
don't publish a ranting, rambling 31 page declaration of war manifesto against who or whatever your imagined enemy happens to be.
the lo-pro method of things would be something like Ted "The Unibomber" Kaczynski .
manifesto = "come at me, bro!" = dumb, dumb, dumb
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I live about 12 blocks from here and I've been on red alert the entire time. Meanwhile, school was cancelled on Friday, and yet lots of parents allowed their kids to go snowboarding here, and the place was packed on Saturday!
The cabin they showed burning on Fox News last night looked much more rural than the location shown in the photograph. It didn't look like there were even any roads around it???
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my take away from this....
don't publish a ranting, rambling 31 page declaration of war manifesto against who or whatever your imagined enemy happens to be.
the lo-pro method of things would be something like Ted "The Unibomber" Kaczynski .
manifesto = "come at me, bro!" = dumb, dumb, dumb
That clip keeps coming in handy ;D
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The cabin they showed burning on Fox News last night looked much more rural than the location shown in the photograph. It didn't look like there were even any roads around it???
Dorner was killed in a different cabin. He was holed up in this cabin here in town for a couple of days, literally across the street from the PD's Command Post, next to Bear Mountain Ski Resort. On Sunday, the PD packed up and moved the command post to the Sheriff's Station a couple miles away. That's when he had a chance to steal the car and drove down the mountain to Seven Oaks, about 10 miles away as the crow flies.
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What Lessons are there?
Don't piss off the big black guy with military training ?
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Dorner was killed in a different cabin. He was holed up in this cabin here in town for a couple of days, literally across the street from the PD's Command Post, next to Bear Mountain Ski Resort. On Sunday, the PD packed up and moved the command post to the Sheriff's Station a couple miles away. That's when he had a chance to steal the car and drove down the mountain to Seven Oaks, about 10 miles away as the crow flies.
I see said the blind man. I wonder who owned it?
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my take away from this....
don't publish a ranting, rambling 31 page declaration of war manifesto against who or whatever your imagined enemy happens to be.
I read his manifesto. From it, there is no way he couldn't help himself. It's clear he was a huge narcissist and a hot-head to boot. Worst combination, especially for a cop.
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I read his manifesto. From it, there is no way he couldn't help himself. It's clear he was a huge narcissist and a hot-head to boot. Worst combination, especially for a cop.
I caught the same drift. He tried to set himself up as a black Serpico. It didn't pan out. Far too much "woe is me" crap. He took years to compile his entire non convincing load of silly foolishness. He should have moved to the Sudan. With his stupid mentality, he would have fit right in with those murdering idiots.
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What I got is don't get stuck in a burning building surrounded by armed persons that are more than happy to shoot at you, and more importantly don't shoot at THEM first. ;D
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Yep.... all or nothing..... Individuals or small groups will play out like Waco or Ruby Ridge.... where the small pocket of 'radical resistance' or 'domestic terrorist' is quelled.
Not sure I agree with that. Just taking an example from the Afghans. They have managed to keep us mired down for 11 years. Not a huge force either. But by using guerrilla tactics they have held their own. Although, it doesn't appear that the same handcuffing ROE applies for U.S. Citizens.
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Not sure I agree with that. Just taking an example from the Afghans. They have managed to keep us mired down for 11 years. Not a huge force either. But by using guerrilla tactics they have held their own.
And by heavy munitions first supplied by us in the 80s and then by other Arab countries now. Where would a local rebel get a case of RPGs or mortars? Frankly, small arms only goes so far.
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Far too much "woe is me" crap. He took years to compile his entire non convincing load of silly foolishness.
He may have truly been wronged and had a legitimate grievance, but this personality dictated his course of action. He was determined to handle it "his way".
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And by heavy munitions first supplied by us in the 80s and then by other Arab countries now. Where would a local rebel get a case of RPGs or mortars? Frankly, small arms only goes so far.
Exhibit A
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I read his manifesto. From it, there is no way he couldn't help himself. It's clear he was a huge narcissist and a hot-head to boot. Worst combination, especially for a cop.
I caught the same drift. He tried to set himself up as a black Serpico. It didn't pan out. Far too much "woe is me" crap. He took years to compile his entire non convincing load of silly foolishness. He should have moved to the Sudan. With his stupid mentality, he would have fit right in with those murdering idiots.
Neither the LAPD or the media are exactly known for their honesty , or integrity.
I reserve judgement.
It seems darned odd to me that a Naval officer would sulk for 4 years before going on this sort of rampage.
Second, a 31 page manifesto isn't something you spend 4 years writing, especially not with so many up to date references.
If he were that peeved he would have started writing and not stopped until he was done or had to stop for sleep, a couple days at most.
And it's not as if his life were destroyed if he could afford to have a place in Las Vegas.
There's something we're not being told.
As for Afghan weapons, in the tribal area's of Pakistan you can buy any fire arm ever made built to order in a cottage industry that has been in place for a couple hundred years from a traditional "Jezail" like was used to wound Dr Watson, right up to modern (ish) artillery pieces and anti aircraft guns.
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According to DiFi and Villagrossa you can get RPGs and M2s in downtown LA too ;D
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According to DiFi and Villagrossa you can get RPGs and M2s in downtown LA too ;D
Well, of course you can.
The folks selling them went to Mexico to get some of the illegal arms flowing south from the US, then brought them back to flip them in LA.
Shrewd.
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According to DiFi and Villagrossa you can get RPGs and M2s in downtown LA too ;D
Actually, you probably can . Cartel surplus.
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Not sure I agree with that. Just taking an example from the Afghans. They have managed to keep us mired down for 11 years. Not a huge force either. But by using guerrilla tactics they have held their own. Although, it doesn't appear that the same handcuffing ROE applies for U.S. Citizens.
You miss gist of my statement.... by "all or nothing" I was referring to BB's statement about "all-out civil war" and meant the fighting groups need to be of the same 'heart and mind' and united as to the intended goal of their actions.
If one small group in New Hampshire decides to declare war on the Union, it will be played out like a 'Waco scenario' as a wacko group of militia crazies and dealt with. It would take multiple groups (or motivated individuals) across the nation, working for the same intended goal to stall .gov on a large level.....hence my "all or nothing" comment.
The Afghans are doing the same things to us that they did to the Russians when I was a teenager.
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According to DiFi and Villagrossa you can get RPGs and M2s in downtown LA too ;D
The corner 7-11 if I recall correctly ;)
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You miss gist of my statement.... by "all or nothing" I was referring to BB's statement about "all-out civil war" and meant the fighting groups need to be of the same 'heart and mind' and united as to the intended goal of their actions.
If one small group in New Hampshire decides to declare war on the Union, it will be played out like a 'Waco scenario' as a wacko group of militia crazies and dealt with. It would take multiple groups (or motivated individuals) across the nation, working for the same intended goal to stall .gov on a large level.....hence my "all or nothing" comment.
The Afghans are doing the same things to us that they did to the Russians when I was a teenager.
Gotcha, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. This is what I have been really anxious about. I think there are so many people ready for the fight. They are just waiting for someone to step up and lead. The question is who, and when. The problem I see is that until someone steps up who is recognizable, and who has some clout, all there will be is small groups, or individuals, all labeled as wackos.
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Gotcha, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. This is what I have been really anxious about. I think there are so many people ready for the fight. They are just waiting for someone to step up and lead. The question is who, and when. The problem I see is that until someone steps up who is recognizable, and who has some clout, all there will be is small groups, or individuals, all labeled as wackos.
Yep.
Unless it is a big, 'one giant step for mankind' type uprising, .gov will smother the little attempts before they get started......DHS has plenty of ammo these days, you know.
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Yep.
Unless it is a big, 'one giant step for mankind' type uprising, .gov will smother the little attempts before they get started......DHS has plenty of ammo these days, you know.
Off site storage. Isn't that nice of them. ;D
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Off site storage. Isn't that nice of them. ;D
Well, yeah, if you know where they are! 8)
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All it took in 1775 was one shot at the critical moment.
Some sources claim that shot was fired from the Lexington Tavern, possibly by Sam Adams who was present at the time.
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Well, yeah, if you know where they are! 8)
Just look for a big box marked .gov property. It's a good bet you'll find something good in there.
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With my luck it will be 5 years worth of tax records ;D
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My take on Dorner is: "don't start vast projects with half-vast ideas." He had no pre-planned escape route, bounced around from target to target, tried to make a hide-out in the mountains but was foiled by a broken axle, abandoned guns & ammo in his burning vehicle, left tracks in the snow, successfully hid in plain sight of police but bolted too soon. Essentially he planned little after the murder of one cop's daughter and fingered himself with his "manifesto". LAPD wanted him dead from the beginning and they got their wish. Lesson: Screw with one cop, inherit the entire force...no questions asked.
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Plan your fight and fight your plan while keeping it stupidly simple.
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With my luck it will be 5 years worth of tax records ;D
Or you could luck up and find a shipment of guns destined for Mexico.....
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Bet I know where I could sell the ones I didn't want to keep too. ;D
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Remove the race and cop factor, and Dorner was just another murdering crackpot who did himself in when cornered. Newspaper articles are full of them. Especially recently.
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Remove the race and cop factor, and Dorner was just another murdering crackpot who did himself in when cornered. Newspaper articles are full of them. Especially recently.
If that were true why was it so important to kill him that they shot a 71 year old Mexican woman with out warning for driving a pick up similar to his ?
Why did they go to the trouble of using a Waco style "tank" to intentionally burn him out while preventing the FD from responding ?
Something smells.
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I'm not reading any "conspiracy theories" into this. Cops hate cop killers. They really hate cop killers that try to drum up public support for their cause. Most of the time they'll stop at nothing to get them. If that means outright kill them by whatever means, so be it. This was a bad cop gone off the rails. He was stupid or he could have easily done more damage. The LAPD has terrible public relations, no doubt. And the longer this went on, the worse it could have played out for them. Now they look like heroes who stopped a madman. At least that's the way the media will play it, and most people will accept it.
They used "Burners", (Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters), on purpose. They knew it would cause a fire. They knew he would most likely put a bullet in his head rather than burn to death. That turned out to be a better public relations outcome, than if he rushed them, and they shot him 60 times. This guy set himself up to the point the cops could do pretty much anything they wanted to get him. Once he killed the Sheriff's deputy and wounded yet another, all bets were off.
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Bill, you still don't get it.
You're parroting what the media told you.
The same media that reported Jesse Jackson's comment about "assault weapons" shooting down planes and trains .
They actually reported that without laughing and you still take their word at face value ?
Been into the wine lately ?
What's the other side of the story ?
We'll never know because they did a better job than with the Branch Davidians.
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We'll never know because they did a better job than with the Branch Davidians.
Learning curve?
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Bill, you still don't get it.
You're parroting what the media told you.
The same media that reported Jesse Jackson's comment about "assault weapons" shooting down planes and trains .
They actually reported that without laughing and you still take their word at face value ?
Been into the wine lately ?
What's the other side of the story ?
We'll never know because they did a better job than with the Branch Davidians.
It's got nothing to do with the media. The guy is dead, and the cops killed him, or else put the odds in their favor by such a wide margin, he turned the gun on himself. Or.....maybe a cops bullet got him. The point is he's dead. What else is there to go on about except of what he made of all of it?
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If that were true why was it so important to kill him that they shot a 71 year old Mexican woman with out warning for driving a pick up similar to his ?
Why did they go to the trouble of using a Waco style "tank" to intentionally burn him out while preventing the FD from responding ?
Something smells.
OK, next time someone barricades themselves inside a residence, with an unknown number of weapons and ammo, who has already shot at anyone getting close, and the house catches fire, no matter why, we're sending YOU to put the fire out. No FF worth his air tank would go anywhere near a structure were there is a better than average chance they'll get shot, or ammo will start cooking off.
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OK, next time someone barricades themselves inside a residence, with an unknown number of weapons and ammo, who has already shot at anyone getting close, and the house catches fire, no matter why, we're sending YOU to put the fire out. No FF worth his air tank would go anywhere near a structure were there is a better than average chance they'll get shot, or ammo will start cooking off.
You're being a dumb ass.
He had no hostage they needed to rescue like in Alabama where they waited a week .
There was no hurry, he wasn't going anywhere since the place was surrounded .
Why was it so important to go to all the expense of hauling in a tank and getting soaked for the cost of the house, and the court costs of trying to get out of paying for the house, when they could have just waited him out as has been done thousands of times before all over the world ?
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You're being a dumb ass.
He had no hostage they needed to rescue like in Alabama where they waited a week .
There was no hurry, he wasn't going anywhere since the place was surrounded .
Why was it so important to go to all the expense of hauling in a tank and getting soaked for the cost of the house, and the court costs of trying to get out of paying for the house, when they could have just waited him out as has been done thousands of times before all over the world ?
There is no question they wanted him dead and they wanted him dead now.
But here are a couple of scenarios to consider in your decision making about waiting him out.
1.) He has a .50 cal and can kill any officer that exposes him/herself within eyesight of the cabin. How many do you want to lose securing that perimeter?
2.) Now that his location is public knowledge his fanboys start showing up in droves. Crowd control is a lot harder in the woods than in the city. Someone, or a lot of someones, is/are going to get killed.
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How can he have a .50 cal ?
They have been illegal in Ca for years.
And since he burned his truck he sure wasn't toting it with him.
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It's George Bush's fault.
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It's George Bush's fault.
Heck yeah. Pass the kool-aide.
Honestly, might it also have something to do with tourist income, negative PR and getting that area off the nightly news with the bad PR? Which if true says it is OK to kill to $$$$ which is akin to what Tom is saying. I'm just sayin'.
If Dorner set the fire, fine let him burn. If he did not set the fire why send in something that may start a fire? The truth of the matter is we all "know" that the guy was guilty...OK, I even think he was guilty through-and-through. But this is where the due process sucks and protecting citizenship rights for us all comes in.... and yes it's a bad deal for the people who have to enforce it. If someone sent in something to burn him down then the truth is if they start to do it for "bad guys" then they'll do it to the "good guys" too.
Somebody quoted Waco...that was a stunt to get the ATF money as well as there was a political movement at the time to highlight dangerous groups and militias for some reason. The sheriff of the county there stated that they could have arrested Koresh at any time....and Koresh went into town twice a week like clockwork it could have been done outside the compound and the Sheriff was quoted as saying he told the ATF that before the raid. This was quoted in the New Orleans Times Picayune news paper without refute...which is also where the operation was run from (actually on Lake Rd just across the canal in Metairie about 3 blocks up the road from where I once lived). Additionally, the ATF tried to recruit other agencies in the area and called the Customs Office in Lafayette, LA where a friend of mine worked (there was an office there at the time). My friend's boss saw it for the sham it was and said no....ATF tried to intimidate him and the Custom's guy said his people were unavailable on a need-to-know mission....ATF demanded to know what it was and Custom's told them to pound sand.
Bottom line, the Sheriff was quoted saying the nickel-and-dime arms charge was nothing compared to the capital murder arrest he had previously made on Koresh and Koresh's number 1 Lt. previously where the Sheriff walked into the compound, announced what he was there for and Koresh came along willingly arrested and shackled. No resistance whatsoever for a charge that you can be executed for vs. the ATF charge that may have resulted in some prison time...in contrast. And do I ever remember seeing the ATF manager responsible for this tragedy on Channel 6 news doing all he could do to salvage his career dodging questions....like he didn't care about what was happening to people, i.e. citizens we don't like, he was clearly concerned with his own hide....disgusting.
My point is there is a wrong and right way to do things. It sucks if someone in enforcement get's killed....it sucks even more when enforcement begins to terrorize the public with black ninja suits and no-knocks and kills innocent people and intimidates the public....not that this happens, right? So being in enforcement to me means sometimes to "serve and protect" and that a sacrifice really has to happen to preserve the rights of the citizen in the land of the free or we are not free at all....so let's move on about that or if someone in enforcement is stuck on burning an SOB out when he's bad and it's OK because of that (the person is bad) then they need to be a mall ninja somewhere.
Gun owners are citizens that can be demonized and dehumanized....IN FACT IT IS HAPPENING NOW...CAN'T YOU SEE?
Once you are dehumanized, in the same manner as a FETUS, then of what value is your life?
We have to work the politics right now because there is a political movement to eliminate our 2nd Amendment protections (the right is God given not given by decree of law...) and to do so misrepresentative lying, demonizing and dehumanizing is rampant from the left...tomorrow may well be too late to write or call your local politician or to donate to the NRA.
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Following on Rastus's comment I'll bring up this administrations drone murders.
When I found fault with the Govt murder of US citizen Alawi many on here came up with all sorts of BS justification about "He was a terrorist", "He was waging war against the US" .
Can you also justify the missile murder 2 weeks later of his Detroit born 16 year old son who was never accused of anything ?
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Even friggin' JEFFREY DAHMER got a trial. This IS the United States of America, right?
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No, it's not.
It's the Kingdom of Obamaland, ruled by the dictatorship of the easily lead.
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Following on Rastus's comment I'll bring up this administrations drone murders.
When I found fault with the Govt murder of US citizen Alawi many on here came up with all sorts of BS justification about "He was a terrorist", "He was waging war against the US" .
Can you also justify the missile murder 2 weeks later of his Detroit born 16 year old son who was never accused of anything ?
And expanding on Tom's comment above this is why it is important to have leadership that is not RINO in the Republican party. RINO's want to emulate the Dems to steal votes so...they would support something just exactly what Tom's stating above and have supported that. Again, it sucks to be restrained at times but it's better for the nation to value citizens and follow due process.
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Well, this might explain why he was killed. L.A City Council pledged $100,000 reward.
The $1 million pledged by the city was "for information that will lead to Mr. Dorner's capture." Another $100,000 pledged by the L.A. City Council had similar language, stating the money was for information "leading to the identification, apprehension and conviction of Christopher Dorner."
Since Dorner was never captured, apprehended or convicted, and instead died Tuesday night during a dramatic standoff near Big Bear, Calif., when the cabin he barricaded himself in burned down with him inside, the terms were not met.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/15/1m-reward-for-christopher-dorner-may-go-uncollected/
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/34939338.jpg)
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Not sure I agree with that. Just taking an example from the Afghans. They have managed to keep us mired down for 11 years. Not a huge force either. But by using guerrilla tactics they have held their own. Although, it doesn't appear that the same handcuffing ROE applies for U.S. Citizens.
the US signed a treat where we can't use CS gas on the battlefield or against combatants. it's on wikipedia, you can look it up if you want.
the theory was if CS gas were to be used by one side, the other side would respond with Mustard gas or Sarin.
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Plan your fight and fight your plan while keeping it stupidly simple.
No plan survives first contact.
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No plan survives INTACT first contact.
FIFY. There is always a plan, it just may not resemble the original by the time the fight is over ;D
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Don't get me wrong, I am not pro-Dorner.
I am pro-Constitution and pro-due process. Pro-pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.
In my ideal world, once Dorner had secured himself inside that cabin, and things quieted down to a point, I hope the cops gave him an ultimatum broadcasted over a megaphone or a cruiser's PA system: "COME OUT IN TEN MINUTES PEACEFULLY, OR WE ARE GOING TO KNOCK IN THE WALLS AND FIRE UP THE TEAR GAS!"
what this incident basically did was turn the police into judge, jury, and executioner.
if there was cahoot-ness between San Bernadino PD and LAPD that shows they knew those CS canisters cause fires, then I hope somebody like the NAACP or the ACLU gets those documents and files suit.
somebody on another forum said there is a training and then a certification process for administering CS grenades.
if some cop was there who was certified and totally ignored what the training or building volume to gas grenade calculators dictate, I hope he gets charged with arson.
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For information on the "incendiary CS" I refer you to Waco.
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Reports this am said he killed himself prior to the fire or while he was on fire...bullet through the brain bucket!
Convenience?
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Like I said earlier Dorner wasn't going to jail, with or without the cs or "get the cop killer" attitude.
Look at most of these "rampage" shooters, once they get cornered or meet significant resistance they off themselves. Same thing here. I believe, in the absence of the CS, it would have lasted maybe another day before he either outright shoot himself or rushed out to shoot it out, IF he didn't try to slip out in the night. Yes, CS has the capability to start a fire. The other option is giving Dorner a chance to get away in the dark. A perimter was set up and MIGHT have seen him but the tree line was fairly close and so were other cabins so there are gaps in what was under observation.
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If they wanted to drive him out and not kill him why didn't they use non-flammable grenades?
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There is no such thing.
All "diversinary devices," including CS, Flash bangs, rubber ball grenades and the like all have some form of explosive charge. It may be less than a shotgun shell but they still produce heat. Some more than others, but any of them will burn. The CS and smoke types are a chemical reaction that burn a little slower but a flash bang, that only burns for a matter of seconds will light off a structure if it lands next to something flamable. Look around your house, windows specifically since that's where they'd be tossed, how much compustable material do you have in any particular room? The couch, newspaper, pile of cloths, ect
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Though we will probably never know, he could have set the fire himself before he took the frontal lobotomy with the 9mm!
Either way, the POS is dead! LAPD won't suffer or admit to anything untoward...
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somebody on another thread on another forum who is trained and certified in CS grenades and how they should be employed, said that there were basically two types of CS grenades.
The hot ones he referrred to as burners. He said they burn real hot on purpose. It keeps a protestor from picking it up and throwing it back at police. Those are only supposed to be used outside, because they are a fire risk.
The other kind are the cold ones, and he said those are obviously approved for indoor use.
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I've never seen them. Even the "cold" smoke markers we used in our survival vest got hot enough to burn your hand. Maximum time you could hold one was about 45 secs, then it was to hot. It was more than enough to get something to smolder, possibly ignite if it was the right material.
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The remarks on the scanner that went out on the air specified "burners".