The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on August 01, 2008, 05:36:01 PM
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The whole purpose of this post is to spark debate ;D
At what point do patriotic, LAW ABIDING citizens say enough is enough and veto govt, action at gunpoint ? To be blunt, when do we start killing socialists?
Do we start when they infiltrate our institutions like Congress, or Schools ? How about when they desecrate national symbols, Such as burning the flag ? Undermine our Armed Forces ? Promote the views of America's enemies?
Prevent Americans from exercising their rights? Or do we start killing them when they disregard the law of the land?Do you think these things set the bar to low, should we wait until the socialists actively give our country away to invaders from another nation ? Perhaps you think we should wait until the ballot box is no longer effective ?
All of these things have been true for decades, will we start killing them in time or will it simply be the last bloody gasp of a dieing society ?
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This may already be posted elsewhere, but it may be apt here.
If not disregard.
I did not write it, don't know who did, but it is a good read........ In my opinion.
Food for thought…
CATCHING WILD PIGS
One day a professor leading a chemistry lab class noticed a young exchange student who kept rubbing his back, and stretching as if injured.
He asked the young man what was the matter and the student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back.
He had been shot during fighting in his native country by those wanting to install a communist government.
In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question.
He asked, 'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line.
The young man said this was no joke. He said, "You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, hardly noticing the opening getting smaller as the gate quietly creaks closed. Almost suddenly the whole herd realizes it is caught. But not so suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. Some run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they all go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.
The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America.
The government keeps pushing us toward socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc, etc, etc. while we continue to lose our freedoms - just a little at a time.
Generally government will never provide a service more efficiently for you than you can do it yourself.
So, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends.
If you rationalize these programs in the interest of “fairness or kindness” or think the free ride is essential to your way of life then you will probably disagree with this, but God help us all when the gate is closed!
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"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington
Can't get much more "Founding" than that. He might have been in NH when he wrote that.
"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American."
Tench Coxe 2/20/1788 "John Adams described Coxe as a "wiley, winding, subtle, and insidious character."
"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."
Ayn Rand, The Nature of Government
Every time I read this I get really mad.
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people�s liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference�they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington, Jan. 7, 1790, speech to Congress
I'll finish with that, and A Revolution/Civil War, version 2.0 would be terrible. However to answer the question on your post,..
"should we wait until the socialists actively give our country away to invaders from another nation ?"
If it gets to the point of "invaders", well, I'll have these quotes put on a T-shirt and load every single mag I own, and say "enough is enough". Viva La Revolution!
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It's a sad catch-22 type of situation. Those, such as ourselves, who are looking forward and see what might happen to our beloved nation are currently thought of as irrational and paranoid relics of the past by mainstream America. When the majority shifts and eyes begin to open, however, it will be far too late. Much like the wild pig analogy, most Americans won't notice the boundries going up around them until they are trapped. Then we will recieve our vindication, but the big "I told you so" will have lost its sweetness when combined with the bitter coating of our loss of freedom.
Swoop
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The country is ALREADY being handed over to an invading, though generally, unarmed invader. What else would you call illegal immigration if not an invasion by citizens of another country? As the situation is now we could not hold Ca. and most of the Southwest if Mexico said they were taking it back, America would eventually win but we would be starting from a front that would more or less run from Ok. to Or.
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Second Law of Thermodynamics: In any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.
This could be treated by some of you as not related to the question asked by Tom, but don't rush to judgement till you read the following:
http://www.nexialinstitute.com/social_entropy.htm (http://www.nexialinstitute.com/social_entropy.htm)
Please be patient, don't be intimidated by the formulas.
Nobody can full the nature, RKBA is the means to shorten the cycle. By chance or divine providense our founding fathers stumbled upon the very fundamental principals of human society. A right kind of change is definetely needed so, think globaly and act localy. Election time is right around the corner.
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The whole purpose of this post is to spark debate ;D
At what point do patriotic, LAW ABIDING citizens say enough is enough and veto govt, action at gunpoint ? To be blunt, when do we start killing socialists?
Do we start when they infiltrate our institutions like Congress, or Schools ? How about when they desecrate national symbols, Such as burning the flag ? Undermine our Armed Forces ? Promote the views of America's enemies?
Prevent Americans from exercising their rights? Or do we start killing them when they disregard the law of the land?Do you think these things set the bar to low, should we wait until the socialists actively give our country away to invaders from another nation ? Perhaps you think we should wait until the ballot box is no longer effective ?
All of these things have been true for decades, will we start killing them in time or will it simply be the last bloody gasp of a dieing society ?
Well, we came pretty darn close in 1968, but the opportunity passed and here we are forty years later.
They PROMISED us things would be okay if we would just be patient.
Go figure.
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Second Law of Thermodynamics: In any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.
This could be treated by some of you as not related to the question asked by Tom, but don't rush to judgement till you read the following:
http://www.nexialinstitute.com/social_entropy.htm (http://www.nexialinstitute.com/social_entropy.htm)
Please be patient, don't be intimidated by the formulas.
Nobody can full the nature, RKBA is the means to shorten the cycle. By chance or divine providense our founding fathers stumbled upon the very fundamental principals of human society. A right kind of change is definetely needed so, think globaly and act localy. Election time is right around the corner.
I quit school in the 9th grade, your link made my head hurt ;D What I get from this is that (in laymans terms ) The more pissed off the population the higher the chances of bottom up change (revolution).
Here's another possibility, McCain wins the popular vote and the Electoral college goes 51% McCain 49% B Ho with a Dem challenge that has the Supreme court ruling for B Ho, What then ?
What I'm getting at is what limit do you set as a trigger point. Where do you say no, I will not compromise any further. Do you resist when the forces of Govt confiscate YOUR guns, or when they start doing it in your community, as in New Orleans, or in your state ?
At what point would YOU say, "I'm an American and a man and I will kill or die before I surrender any more of my liberty."?
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Very interesting post. The thing is, there are no more George Washington's or Robert E. Lee's to lead the rest of us into battle. And if there were, no one would probably follow them in this cynical age. What I see happening are a bunch of Waco-type stand offs, where the government attempts to dis-arm folks one house at a time. Some will give them up, some will be taken by surprise, and some will be shooting back with everything they have.
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Very interesting post. The thing is, there are no more George Washington's or Robert E. Lee's to lead the rest of us into battle. And if there were, no one would probably follow them in this cynical age. What I see happening are a bunch of Waco-type stand offs, where the government attempts to dis-arm folks one house at a time. Some will give them up, some will be taken by surprise, and some will be shooting back with everything they have.
Let me point out that these 2 were nothing special until challenged by circumstances.
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The country is ALREADY being handed over to an invading, though generally, unarmed invader. What else would you call illegal immigration if not an invasion by citizens of another country? As the situation is now we could not hold Ca. and most of the Southwest if Mexico said they were taking it back, America would eventually win but we would be starting from a front that would more or less run from Ok. to Or.
Tom,
Generally, I agree with you. On this note. no. We are being invaded and in danger of someone/something trying to take over but not from illegal immigration. While the numbers are large, their power is limited. Most of the ones from Mexico are coming to escape Mexico and would/will not obey Mexico if it puts a call to take over Calif or the Southwest. Then there are too many of us that will not allow that to happen. Pat Buchanan is spouting the theory of a fifth column by Mexico to take over the Southwest. Bullshit.
What about the people/corportations and countries that are buying up our country and have tremendous influence on what goes on in this country. A very large part of our country is already out of American hands. Other countries thru their national corporations are working at taking over operations of our country. Case in point, Slick Willy and Dubai almost taking over operations at our ports.
What about the United Nations working to take over the operations of all of our National Parks. I read that they already operate some National Parks. We have Carlsbad Caverns National Parks and they were trying to take over, claiming the Parks belong to the world. Also, the United Nations is working to disarm the world and the United States.
Next we have the radical Islamic and maybe some not so radical that want to take control of the world, beginning with the US in the name of Allah.
Those items are of greater threat to our country and way of life and that is what we will, in more probability, have to fight to keep our country.
Semper Fi, my brother and like Charleston Heston said, " From my cold dead hands".
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Tom,
Generally, I agree with you. On this note. no. We are being invaded and in danger of someone/something trying to take over but not from illegal immigration. While the numbers are large, their power is limited. Most of the ones from Mexico are coming to escape Mexico and would/will not obey Mexico if it puts a call to take over Calif or the Southwest. Then there are too many of us that will not allow that to happen. Pat Buchanan is spouting the theory of a fifth column by Mexico to take over the Southwest. Bullshit.
What about the people/corportations and countries that are buying up our country and have tremendous influence on what goes on in this country. A very large part of our country is already out of American hands. Other countries thru their national corporations are working at taking over operations of our country. Case in point, Slick Willy and Dubai almost taking over operations at our ports.
What about the United Nations working to take over the operations of all of our National Parks. I read that they already operate some National Parks. We have Carlsbad Caverns National Parks and they were trying to take over, claiming the Parks belong to the world. Also, the United Nations is working to disarm the world and the United States.
Next we have the radical Islamic and maybe some not so radical that want to take control of the world, beginning with the US in the name of Allah.
Those items are of greater threat to our country and way of life and that is what we will, in more probability, have to fight to keep our country.
Semper Fi, my brother and like Charleston Heston said, " From my cold dead hands".
I had not heard the Pat Buchanan thing, I was thinking of the protests a year or two ago. It was just a possibility because I did not think of the ones you mention, such as foreign ownership of Major US agri business corporations, and UN meddling in all aspects of our INTERNAL affairs.
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Like most things, the illegals are a symptom and a smokescreen, a problem but not the real problem.
The real problem, as Tom noted, is that the country as a whole has been sold out over the past 40-50 years. And it is all about the Benjamins - and the power.
Benjamins - the multi-national conglomerates are moving us in the direction of the original movie Rollerball - governments no longer matter (or as in the movie do not even exist) because the companies control the political infrastructure and manipulate it where they want it to go.
Don't think so? Consider this - do you ever remember anyone asking you if it was OK for something called a "credit score" to control your life? You probably don't, you were probably (as was I) distracted by some shiny object the government dangled to distract us from noticing.
Power - what needs to be said? Why do you think the politicians keep passing laws like the McCain-Feingold act, often referred to as the incumbent assurance act? To stay in power. And why? to help build big government in partnership with big business and keep moving to better control the populace.
And that explains the libs in particular getting in bed with the UN, easily one of the most vicious and incompetent (an interesting combination BTW) forms of governments ever invented or seen on the face of this earth. Rome was never this incompetent (except maybe under the later emperors). Egypt had it's ups and downs. But everyone of these governments had opponents - Rome had Carthage (for a while), Egypt ran so long it fought nearly everyone in the area - Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Nubians, etc. Same for the Chinese.
Who will the UN compete with?
The police have been militarized over the past 30 years to be the front lines, as we have seen in NO, Greensburg and elsewhere. And our military - and many around the world - are getting great urban warfare training in the Sandbox, Kosovo, even Grenada. Lessons have been learned, and tactics being adapted.
All you have to do is read, like a big puzzle, and put the pieces together. No one will hand you the finished puzzle - yet. When they do? It will be too late.
I'm open to other interpretations. But do you wonder why I'm pessimistic?
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These are great posts, interesting evaluations of our situation. But no one has yet dared to actually address the question.
Once again I ask, where do YOU draw the line and start killing the abusers of power ?
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Tom,
Generally, I agree with you. On this note. no. We are being invaded and in danger of someone/something trying to take over but not from illegal immigration. While the numbers are large, their power is limited. ....
Though I'm not believing any kind of planned subversion, I think your view comes from living in close relations to a "fluid" border situation where people crossing the border is common. Having grown up in the South, living in Louisiana outside Baton Rouge and New Orleans, having traveled extensively in the deep south and Texas and being a bit over 50 years old, I disagree.
There has been a influence on society from immigration that may not be visible to you due to where you live. I worked New Mexico the last two years in the oil business, the society there is quite different from other parts of the country and appears oblivious to cultural changes that the remainder of the country sees. Some of the cultural changes we see in other parts of the country appear to have been always part of the culture of the Southwest. That's fine for the Southwest, but it riles up the rest of us due to the cliquish nature and consequences of being illegal, for a few starters.
Houston...totally different now than it was 20-30 years ago due to illegal invaders. Dallas, ditto. Northwest Arkansas...wow...now that is a huge change in culture foisted by illegals. And this culture is not better than our culture (excluding the welfare handout slime). Disagree with the culture statement, give me some points where the Mexican culture and lifestyle is an improvement over traditional United States American culture and lifestyle....that is to say where is it better than our culture. I know there are outstanding individuals...I'm not speaking of people worthy to enter, I'm talking about the preponderence of one culture over another culture.
I chased an illegal Mexican out of my garage 15 or so years ago. He was an itinerant strawberry picker who ended up in the back country one mile off the main road at the very dead end where I lived. He was where he didn't belong and knew it.....I should have called the police...I did not know then what I know now.
In Oklahoma, where I have now lived for 12 years, I have seen a pendulum change. On arrival, not much of an overrun from Mexicans, as housing construction increased along with builder greed, the population of illegal Mexicans skyrocketed. Undeniably and as so recorded violent crime increased from the Mexicans. I personally knew a person killed by an illegal Mexican and several who have been robbed or otherwise damaged (car accidents, etc.) and there has been no recourse against them. Think I'm full of it on the knowing a person killed by a Mexican, look up in Tulsa....his son and my son had finished basketball practice and dad never showed to pick him up. Illegals are protected by the greedy rich of Tulsa who will not pay a local worker a decent wage....it is wrong to think lower prices are passed on due to savings....greed lines the pockets of "citizens" who hire illegal invaders. Last year, Oklahoma passed a law making it a felony to hire an illegal...in October 2007, there was a huge exodus and the society is better for it. Period.
Too many people far different from the society streaming in far too fast who do not honor our traditions. Though rich people foist it upon the rest of us that still does not make it right. The traditions of Mexcio are similar to those of the Southwest US, so I do not find it unusual that someone living in the Southwest would not see such a problem as people who live outside the Southwest. The Southwest culture is "charming" but when a Mexican culture is introduced to the deep South, New England, etc. it is downright alien.
Those hardworking people who leave Mexico......seem to have children without those values. Our culture, U.S. culture is damaged by this damned welfare state which has created victims who will not work. Illegals who work fill the void for the citizen leaches who do not work. The illegals seem to have children who add to the leaches born of citizens (not all but more than enough). All that is happening is adding to a ever-growing future problem which undeniably looms before us.
We are heavily taxed to pay for the health care and welfare of illegal Mexicans not to mention the huge cost in tax dollars to increase our infrastructure to support illegals. We expand highways, schools, hospitals, police, etc. to accomodate the illegals....or do you somehow think 30 million or so people come over with no cost? I'm damned tired of paying taxes so lazy people can sit on their ass and vote for slugs who give them my money which results in illegals coming to fill the void created by the "citizens" who will not work. Earned income credit...let's not even talk about the money flushed down that program to buy Hispanic votes.....or in fairness, votes of victim-citizens who will not work.
It is not responsible to overlook the Mexican secessionist movement in California and other places. It is not responsible to overlook local and state governments that actively disobey laws to prefer illegal Mexicans and push aside U.S. citizens. It is not responsible to give the wealthy and the politically powerful free reign in destroying our nation so they can achieve their selfish aims.
The threat to our nation is asymmetrical. It is from within first, from without second. I do not blame illegals (Mexican and otherwise) from trying to enter to improve their lot, but I shall not embrace them.
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..........The police have been militarized over the past 30 years to be the front lines, as we have seen in NO, Greensburg and elsewhere. And our military - and many around the world - are getting great urban warfare training in the Sandbox, Kosovo, even Grenada. Lessons have been learned, and tactics being adapted.................
And at places like Gunsite, USSA, Thunder Ranch, etc. Another good reason for citizens to take training....I think it helps law enforcement and citizens to understand we have common goals and interests divergent from the Marxist leaders that are being raised up and who they may one day report to....later having to decide whether or not to support those who do not share the American vision of free citizens and who will be controlling the paychecks. It's good for John Q. Public to train with LEO's to maintain that all-important common bond.
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These are great posts, interesting evaluations of our situation. But no one has yet dared to actually address the question.
Once again I ask, where do YOU draw the line and start killing the abusers of power ?
Well, honestly, I don't think no one want to put down on the internet for the world to see where we would draw the line, simply because the internet cops might come knocking on our door and force our hand sooner than later. Which goes to show just how bad it has become when you will not express yourself for fear of government retribution.
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Though I'm not believing any kind of planned subversion, I think your view comes from living in close relations to a "fluid" border situation where people crossing the border is common. Having grown up in the South, living in Louisiana outside Baton Rouge and New Orleans, having traveled extensively in the deep south and Texas and being a bit over 50 years old, I disagree.
There has been a influence on society from immigration that may not be visible to you due to where you live. I worked New Mexico the last two years in the oil business, the society there is quite different from other parts of the country and appears oblivious to cultural changes that the remainder of the country sees. Some of the cultural changes we see in other parts of the country appear to have been always part of the culture of the Southwest. That's fine for the Southwest, but it riles up the rest of us due to the cliquish nature and consequences of being illegal, for a few starters.
Houston...totally different now than it was 20-30 years ago due to illegal invaders. Dallas, ditto. Northwest Arkansas...wow...now that is a huge change in culture foisted by illegals. And this culture is not better than our culture (excluding the welfare handout slime). Disagree with the culture statement, give me some points where the Mexican culture and lifestyle is an improvement over traditional United States American culture and lifestyle....that is to say where is it better than our culture. I know there are outstanding individuals...I'm not speaking of people worthy to enter, I'm talking about the preponderence of one culture over another culture.
I chased an illegal Mexican out of my garage in Springfield, Lousiana 15 or so years ago. He was an itinerant strawberry picker who ended up in the back country one mile off the main road at the very dead end where I lived. He was where he didn't belong and knew it.....I chased him off with a shotgun but should have called the police...I did not know then what I know now.
In Oklahoma, where I have now lived for 12 years, I have seen a pendulum change. On arrival, not much of an overrun from Mexicans, as housing construction increased along with builder greed, the population of illegal Mexicans skyrocketed. Undeniably and as so recorded violent crime increased from the Mexicans. I personally knew a person killed by an illegal Mexican and several who have been robbed or otherwise damaged (car accidents, etc.) and there has been no recourse against them. Think I'm full of it on the knowing a person killed by a Mexican, look up Randy Berger in Tulsa....his son and my son had finished basketball practice and dad never showed to pick him up. Illegals are protected by the greedy rich of Tulsa who will not pay a local worker a decent wage....it is wrong to think lower prices are passed on due to savings....greed lines the pockets of "citizens" who hire illegal invaders. Last year, Oklahoma passed a law making it a felony to hire an illegal...in October 2007, there was a huge exodus and the society is better for it. Period.
Too many people far different from the society streaming in far too fast who do not honor our traditions. Though rich people foist it upon the rest of us that still does not make it right. The traditions of Mexcio are similar to those of the Southwest US, so I do not find it unusual that someone living in the Southwest would not see such a problem as people who live outside the Southwest. The Southwest culture is "charming" but when a Mexican culture is introduced to the deep South, New England, etc. it is downright alien.
Those hardworking people who leave Mexico......seem to have children without those values. Our culture, U.S. culture is damaged by this damned welfare state which has created victims who will not work. Illegals who work fill the void for the citizen leaches who do not work. The illegals seem to have children who add to the leaches that born of citizens (not all but more than enough). All that is happening is adding to a ever-growing future problem which undeniably looms before us.
We are heavily taxed to pay for the health care and welfare of illegal Mexicans not to mention the huge cost in tax dollars to increase our infrastructure to support illegals. We expand highways, schools, hospitals, police, etc. to accomodate the illegals....or do you somehow think 30 million or so people come over with no cost? I'm damned tired of paying taxes so lazy people can sit on their ass and vote for slugs who give them my money which results in illegals coming to fill the void created by the "citizens" who will not work. Earned income credit...let's not even talk about the money flushed down that program to buy Hispanic votes.....or in fairness, votes of victim-citizens who will not work.
It is not responsible to overlook the Mexican secessionist movement in California and other places. It is not responsible to overlook local and state governments that actively disobey laws to prefer illegal Mexicans and push aside U.S. citizens. It is not responsible to give the wealthy and the politically powerful free reign in destroying our nation so they can achieve their selfish aims.
The threat to our nation is asymmetrical. It is from within first, from without second. I do not blame illegals (Mexican and otherwise) from trying to enter to improve their lot, but I shall not embrace them.
Unrestricted immigration by Huns into the Empire is what eventually brought down the Roman Empire. This has been blamed on many things over the years but the facts are that the Legions were stretched to thin and had to rely on "Legal" Hun immigrants to man the borders, These troops were not very good about keeping their relatives out .
Why were the Legions stretched so thin ? Because POLITICIANS used funds that could have defended the Empire to bribe the masses with free bread and Circuses. Like the Bible says, "There is nothing new under the sun."
Well, honestly, I don't think no one want to put down on the internet for the world to see where we would draw the line, simply because the internet cops might come knocking on our door and force our hand sooner than later. Which goes to show just how bad it has become when you will not express yourself for fear of government retribution.
We can hope that the conclusion they draw is that ordinary people are getting "mad as hell". If the enemy can burn the Flag that so many of us have defended, many to the point of giving their lives to protect what it represents, then I say we to should speak our minds and damn the consequences. It is beyond time for the "Silent Majority" to quit playing coward, that tactic lost us one war in VN, and stands a real good chance of loosing another one in America.
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A direct answer to your question requires the "What happens after?" approach.
Say I go down to my corrupt county commiss meeting and "take care of them", I would be a lone disgruntled citizen, make the news, and go down as some crazed gun owner.
If I go to my lying, bastard gov. here in NC, and "end it for him", I would make the news as a gun nut, and be killed by the NC Highway Patrol.
Chuckie Schumer, the Brady bunch, Even The Anointed One BHO, may give a statement. "The need to reform gun laws,.."etc,..
All this would do is add fuel to the fire for the ANTI-GUN people. and 1 foot fwd. 2 steps back,....thing.
If I did this with a group, we would be classified by the "status quo", just like those militant survivalist groups that hunker down waiting for the end times in Montana somewhere.
Remember the song,..." I fought the law, and the law won ",......
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Let me point out that these 2 were nothing special until challenged by circumstances.
Very true!
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A direct answer to your question requires the "What happens after?" approach.
Say I go down to my corrupt county commiss meeting and "take care of them", I would be a lone disgruntled citizen, make the news, and go down as some crazed gun owner.
If I go to my lying, bastard gov. here in NC, and "end it for him", I would make the news as a gun nut, and be killed by the NC Highway Patrol.
Chuckie Schumer, the Brady bunch, Even The Anointed One BHO, may give a statement. "The need to reform gun laws,.."etc,..
All this would do is add fuel to the fire for the ANTI-GUN people. and 1 foot fwd. 2 steps back,....thing.
If I did this with a group, we would be classified by the "status quo", just like those militant survivalist groups that hunker down waiting for the end times in Montana somewhere.
Remember the song,..." I fought the law, and the law won ",......
The guy's who stood at Lexington and Concord did not care about the status quo,or "what happens after, they just knew that they could NOT allow the "authorities to recover the arms stolen from Fort William and Mary the previous December, only 1/3 or less of the population ever supported the revolution, with equal numbers supporting the Crown, and sitting on the fence.
Also, there is a big difference between removing venal misguided politicians and "robbing people with a six gun"
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A direct answer to your question requires the "What happens after?" approach.
Say I go down to my corrupt county commiss meeting and "take care of them", I would be a lone disgruntled citizen, make the news, and go down as some crazed gun owner.
If I go to my lying, bastard gov. here in NC, and "end it for him", I would make the news as a gun nut, and be killed by the NC Highway Patrol.
Chuckie Schumer, the Brady bunch, Even The Anointed One BHO, may give a statement. "The need to reform gun laws,.."etc,..
All this would do is add fuel to the fire for the ANTI-GUN people. and 1 foot fwd. 2 steps back,....thing.
If I did this with a group, we would be classified by the "status quo", just like those militant survivalist groups that hunker down waiting for the end times in Montana somewhere.
Remember the song,..." I fought the law, and the law won ",......
OK ... you had me until you said Montana!! ;D
Tom ... you would have been appreciated in 1774. But today, whacking those who you disagree with is only going to get you strapped to a gurney with a needle in your arm.
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OK ... you had me until you said Montana!! ;D
Tom ... you would have been appreciated in 1774. But today, whacking those who you disagree with is only going to get you strapped to a gurney with a needle in your arm.
Two things, I won't get a needle if we win, just like Washington and Franklin were not hung as the Traitors they arguably were. Second, I would actually settle for replacing bullets with Horsewhipping and tar and feathers. In fact I think that is more appropriate, since political execution is usually reserved for HONORABLE opponents while tar and feathers was used on scoundrels.
One Man shooting one politician is a vain attempt to send a message. One politician is easily replaced and the spin doctors will distort the facts to fit their deranged assailant scenario. Look at John Wilkes Boothe, 150 years later "learned scholars" are still debating what he hoped to gain, DUH! victory in a lost war. Sarajevo 1914, 1 man, killed 1 politician, the world sees that it sparked a terrible war, the fact that it ended with a Yugoslavia free of Austro Hungarian domination is ignored.That one man died, but his cause WON.
However, a Platoon or Company strength unit, seizing an entire state legislature, say Ca. Pelosi, Fienstein, Boxer, tried, convicted and shot for treason (being the domestic threat we are supposed to defend against) Arnie, citizenship revoked, shipped back to Austria, the lesser offenders either deported to an already Socialist country, or barred from future positions of trust.THAT sends a message that can not be spun, the People are fed up ! Don't ask me about specific tactics, that is stuff for the Pro's, my history back round leaves me better prepared to deal with Strategy and it's implications, than tactics.
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OK ... you had me until you said Montana!! G
Sorry Ron, I didn't mean anything by singling out Montana. There are several other states, If someone like the punk Eric Rudolph can "disappear in the mountains of NC" , until he got stupid, there's hope I'll be through there, with my son,
on my way out to the NorthWest. OR:
NH, is also on the list, didn't someone offer to make the coffee and .223's? Tom? ::)
South Carolina had that mindset once, "However, a Platoon or Company strength unit, seizing an entire state legislature, say Ca. Pelosi, Fienstein, Boxer, tried, convicted and shot for treason (being the domestic threat we are supposed to defend against)"
Short time later,.... Ft. Sumter,..... Leave it to a Carolina boy to take the first shot,..and draw a line in the sand.
One day,.. 8)
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OK ... you had me until you said Montana!! G
Sorry Ron, I didn't mean anything by singling out Montana. There are several other states, If someone like the punk Eric Rudolph can "disappear in the mountains of NC" , until he got stupid, there's hope I'll be through there, with my son,
on my way out to the NorthWest. OR:
NH, is also on the list, didn't someone offer to make the coffee and .223's? Tom? ::)
South Carolina had that mindset once, "However, a Platoon or Company strength unit, seizing an entire state legislature, say Ca. Pelosi, Fienstein, Boxer, tried, convicted and shot for treason (being the domestic threat we are supposed to defend against)"
Short time later,.... Ft. Sumter,..... Leave it to a Carolina boy to take the first shot,..and draw a line in the sand.
One day,.. 8)
Don't have dies for 223, Got .308 and .300 win Mag though
Fort Sumter is an appropriate comparison, The Commander, a Major who's name I can never remember, was pulled off the job of building a Fort at Portsmouth Harbor so that he could be transferred there
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Though I'm not believing any kind of planned subversion, I think your view comes from living in close relations to a "fluid" border situation where people crossing the border is common. Having grown up in the South, living in Louisiana outside Baton Rouge and New Orleans, having traveled extensively in the deep south and Texas and being a bit over 50 years old, I disagree.
There has been a influence on society from immigration that may not be visible to you due to where you live. I worked New Mexico the last two years in the oil business, the society there is quite different from other parts of the country and appears oblivious to cultural changes that the remainder of the country sees. Some of the cultural changes we see in other parts of the country appear to have been always part of the culture of the Southwest. That's fine for the Southwest, but it riles up the rest of us due to the cliquish nature and consequences of being illegal, for a few starters.
The changes that you talk about are very noticeable, even here in the Southwest. The changes are not alarming here as they are to other parts of the country, who is now experiencing changes. I seem to remember reading about the alarms about how the country would change when the Irish came over in droves and same for other nationalities. While the 1st generation illegals do tend to stay hidden, their children are adopting American values. Most 2nd generation young people act just like any other American young person. Most do not speak Spanish, enjoy Ameican music, getting educated, serving and dying in military service and contributing to our country. Yes, there are a lot of illegals committing crimes just a lot of Ameican citizens are commiting crimes. Right now the fad is to publicize what one group of people are doing but pretty soon, the media will look and find something else to raise it ratings and profits. I am 66 years old, with my family being in Texas/New Mexico since before Texas became a state, and have seen great changes in our country and in my hometown. We have gone from a segregated town, whites in the north, Mexican in the south and blacks mainly in the south parts of town. Now, everybody lives where they want and can afford. Now, people are marrying whomever they fall in love or lust with. Yes, we are changing but for the better. What about where the Indians, the Arabs, Chinese, Japanese, the Africans and others are settling and changing our culture.
Houston...totally different now than it was 20-30 years ago due to illegal invaders. Dallas, ditto. Northwest Arkansas...wow...now that is a huge change in culture foisted by illegals. And this culture is not better than our culture (excluding the welfare handout slime). Disagree with the culture statement, give me some points where the Mexican culture and lifestyle is an improvement over traditional United States American culture and lifestyle....that is to say where is it better than our culture. I know there are outstanding individuals...I'm not speaking of people worthy to enter, I'm talking about the preponderence of one culture over another culture.
Nothing stays the same, ever. Wonder what Houston will look like in 20-40 years from now.
I chased an illegal Mexican out of my garage in Springfield, Lousiana 15 or so years ago. He was an itinerant strawberry picker who ended up in the back country one mile off the main road at the very dead end where I lived. He was where he didn't belong and knew it.....I chased him off with a shotgun but should have called the police...I did not know then what I know now.
I have never had an encounter of that type with an illegal or a black, but have had whites trying to hurt me because of the color of my skin, even when on active duty. How do I interpet tha?
In Oklahoma, where I have now lived for 12 years, I have seen a pendulum change. On arrival, not much of an overrun from Mexicans, as housing construction increased along with builder greed, the population of illegal Mexicans skyrocketed. Undeniably and as so recorded violent crime increased from the Mexicans. I personally knew a person killed by an illegal Mexican and several who have been robbed or otherwise damaged (car accidents, etc.) and there has been no recourse against them. Think I'm full of it on the knowing a person killed by a Mexican, look up Randy Berger in Tulsa....his son and my son had finished basketball practice and dad never showed to pick him up. Illegals are protected by the greedy rich of Tulsa who will not pay a local worker a decent wage....it is wrong to think lower prices are passed on due to savings....greed lines the pockets of "citizens" who hire illegal invaders. Last year, Oklahoma passed a law making it a felony to hire an illegal...in October 2007, there was a huge exodus and the society is better for it. Period.
You hit the nail on the head. When employeers start paying Ameican citizens an equitable rate and stop employing illegals, the illegal problem will diminish or end. As long as "Americans" keep providing illegals work in order to make more profit, we will have an "illegal" problem. Same goes for illegal drugs. When we as a country stop demanding those types of drugs, then our "war on drugs" will end. Doubt it will any time soon, too many people making too much money.
Too many people far different from the society streaming in far too fast who do not honor our traditions. Though rich people foist it upon the rest of us that still does not make it right. The traditions of Mexcio are similar to those of the Southwest US, so I do not find it unusual that someone living in the Southwest would not see such a problem as people who live outside the Southwest. The Southwest culture is "charming" but when a Mexican culture is introduced to the deep South, New England, etc. it is downright alien.
Well seems like every other part of the country likes the introduction of Mexican culture. For six years, I traveled extensively throughout the country, from the Atlantic to the Pacific and from Canada to Mexico. The introduction, then, was being activitely accepted and grew to what it is now. Now within the last two to four years, it has become alarming.
Those hardworking people who leave Mexico......seem to have children without those values. Our culture, U.S. culture is damaged by this damned welfare state which has created victims who will not work. Illegals who work fill the void for the citizen leaches who do not work. The illegals seem to have children who add to the leaches born of citizens (not all but more than enough). All that is happening is adding to a ever-growing future problem which undeniably looms before us.
The welfare problem was here before the illegal problem. I used to see, in the 60's, while looking for work and going to the employement office in Los Angeles coming out of welfare office and going to employement office to collect checks and then get into their Cadillacs and drive away. How many generations of welfare families did we create? I guess the rational will sound like, "but they were Americans and that is ok". I see too many children of illegals and illegals, working hard to make a living and become a part of this country. I see a lot of Mexicans, illegal and legal, work two to three jobs to get ahead. I also see some who won't work and milk the system.
We are heavily taxed to pay for the health care and welfare of illegal Mexicans not to mention the huge cost in tax dollars to increase our infrastructure to support illegals. We expand highways, schools, hospitals, police, etc. to accomodate the illegals....or do you somehow think 30 million or so people come over with no cost? I'm damned tired of paying taxes so lazy people can sit on their ass and vote for slugs who give them my money which results in illegals coming to fill the void created by the "citizens" who will not work. Earned income credit...let's not even talk about the money flushed down that program to buy Hispanic votes.....or in fairness, votes of victim-citizens who will not work.
Totally agree with you.
It is not responsible to overlook the Mexican secessionist movement in California and other places. It is not responsible to overlook local and state governments that actively disobey laws to prefer illegal Mexicans and push aside U.S. citizens. It is not responsible to give the wealthy and the politically powerful free reign in destroying our nation so they can achieve their selfish aims.
That is something I have not seen or heard of except from the pundits or people like Buchanan who need something to keep themselves in the spotlight. That is something that I don't think will happen. First, there is no person who can organize or lead the movement. Second, the numbers seem large but the power and money are not there. Third, too many American citizens (all flavors) will not allow it.
The threat to our nation is asymmetrical. It is from within first, from without second. I do not blame illegals (Mexican and otherwise) from trying to enter to improve their lot, but I shall not embrace them.
That is the real problem.
Hope I figured out the highlights and colors right. Great discussion.
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Forgot to answer Tom's question, "When do we starting shooting?". The answer will become clear when the situation becomes such that it becomes a necessity. As always, someone will rise that can motivate the people to take action to protect the country. The problem would be, how to distinguish between false prophets and the real patriot. When Ollie North calls, I'll answer.
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Two things, I won't get a needle if we win, just like Washington and Franklin were not hung as the Traitors they arguably were. Second, I would actually settle for replacing bullets with Horsewhipping and tar and feathers. In fact I think that is more appropriate, since political execution is usually reserved for HONORABLE opponents while tar and feathers was used on scoundrels.
Amen, Brother, Amen!
I think public punishment for crimes would possibly be a deterrent (thoughts?).
Say a 15 year old kid gets caught shoplifting. Instead of a slap on the wrist and some lame community service, whip his ass on the courthouse square and have everyone in his school class out to see it. Heck, put it on TV. Like that time in Singapore (I think it was?) where they caned that American kid that got caught spray painting grafitti. Someone else maybe can refresh my memory on this.
Some would say I'm crazy, but I think executions should be televised. Hangings used to be a public affair. Back in the old days, everyone went armed and if you screwed up badly enough, you paid the price by getting shot or hung....and everyone watched.
Of course, this is just my opinion......... which is like an........well, you know the saying. 8)
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Amen, Brother, Amen!
I think public punishment for crimes would possibly be a deterrent (thoughts?).
Say a 15 year old kid gets caught shoplifting. Instead of a slap on the wrist and some lame community service, whip his ass on the courthouse square and have everyone in his school class out to see it. Heck, put it on TV. Like that time in Singapore (I think it was?) where they caned that American kid that got caught spray painting grafitti. Someone else maybe can refresh my memory on this.
Some would say I'm crazy, but I think executions should be televised. Hangings used to be a public affair. Back in the old days, everyone went armed and if you screwed up badly enough, you paid the price by getting shot or hung....and everyone watched.
Of course, this is just my opinion......... which is like an........well, you know the saying. 8)
Start shooting - All the touchie - feelies left wingers that took away so much.. Wow, look at all the DISRESPECT our young people have.
Teachers get little if no respect, can't touch little Johnie. Even at elementary age children, it's scary to see. I know it all starts at home..
Puplic display of punishment maybe not a bad idea?
Death row should mean DEATH sooner than later..
Aaahhh Hell, where do I sign up >:( >:(
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What would it take to get a "Million Patriot" march together? An assembly in Washington D.C. to demand a return toward the constitututional values laid down by the founders. Less government, more individual responsiblity, tax reform, voter reform, immigration reform, etc. I know that many, if not most, are generally dissatisfied with the government. If most are like me, then there is not an abundance of free time in order to become the squeaky wheel. So how can a large enough group be assembled to make enough of an impact to be taken seriously? I think that the silent majority needs to speak up. I am not advocating any violent or forceful action, but the collective conservative voice need to be heard and there must to be a big enough group that their views will be taken seriously and addressed. I feel that it can only come from a grass roots effort.
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What about a large number of individual localized gatherings where the numbers could be added. Sortof like the illegals did when they wanted to flaunt their flags.
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That's a good idea, too. Maybe five figures of folks in several state capitols. That could at least open some eyes and perhaps show those who would support the cause, but are reluctant to speak up, that there are actually a lot of us.
Who's on board?
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That's a good idea, too. Maybe five figures of folks in several state capitols. That could at least open some eyes and perhaps show those who would support the cause, but are reluctant to speak up, that there are actually a lot of us.
Who's on board?
I'm in, let's set a meaningful date. Like April 19th (Lexington and Concord)? Or June 26th (Heller day)?
The state capital is only 3 hours away.
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What about a large number of individual localized gatherings where the numbers could be added. Sortof like the illegals did when they wanted to flaunt their flags.
I'd go to a march on a capitol. Maybe we could get all 4 and a half million NRA members. AZ's capitol is probably a little closer to me, but the message is probably a lot more important to be made in Sacramento, so I pledge to make the drive. California politicians need to be reminded that there are still a lot of us here!
We could all fly the Gadsden flags (Don't tread on me!). And of course the stars and stripes. No flags of other countries!
I vote for Heller day.
This is really a great idea. How can we mobilize this?
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To add to a large organized gathering, The WHAT IF? all particpants were to show up with a rifle or firearm that is UNLOADED and has a trigger lock on it, or tie-wrapped like at a gun show. Probably 1 idiot would ruin it for everyone else, and the LEO's would get too jumpy. Just a thought.
I think the message would be more pronounced if a Million Patriot March happened and we all had a rifle. Even if it had a lock on it.
The Mr. Heston Speech comes to mind.
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So who knows somebody at the NRA? We could really get some big names out there if they would help sponsor this. Also, maybe The Heritage Foundation and or Grassroots.org would like in on the action. I agree with the unloaded rifles. That would really make a cool statement. There will have to be some way to keep the riff raff out, though. A few idiots could really foul things up.
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Probably just having so many VOTERS show up would be a pretty big message. They would have to face that we aren't some little fringe group of lunatics. I think Heller Day should really become something. Good day for presents.
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I tried to Organize something similar last spring, 20,000 gun Owning voters at each of 50 state capitals. I contacted NRA, SAC, GOA, and JFPO for ORGANIZATIONAL and ADMINISTRATIVE assistance or advice on some one I could contact for advice on organizing this event. I was seeking ADVICE, NOT financial help. I contacted them in late Feb. and early March, if I get a reply I will post it here.
If I don't die of freaking shock first. >:(
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My humble thoughts on this are:
1. Leave the big guys out, they will jump on the bandwagon if and when the ball gets rolling. Doesn't mean we can't use their resources, though, like contacting the local NRA reps for local help.
2. No guns on the march (except CCW of course), as noted it will be impossible to keep the riff raff from being and doing something stupid.
3. It would help if we focused on what the message to be transmitted is, keep it simple, likes it's all for the children (their RKBA that is), something the local average skeet, trap, hunting and rifle clubs would grab hold of and support by publicizing and turning their members out.
4. If a million people decked out in camo or ghillie suits carrying guns, some with bayonets, and more than a few locked and loaded or carrying inappropriately or illegally (see "stupid" comment above), it will be a field day for our enemies, so we need to do all we can to avoid that.
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Probably just having so many VOTERS show up would be a pretty big message. They would have to face that we aren't some little fringe group of lunatics. I think Heller Day should really become something. Good day for presents.
Big +1 Fuzz! I'm going to start my Heller Day list. ( and I thought Christmas was getting expensive) ;D
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4. If a million people decked out in camo or ghillie suits carrying guns, some with bayonets, and more than a few locked and loaded or carrying inappropriately or illegally (see "stupid" comment above), it will be a field day for our enemies, so we need to do all we can to avoid that.
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If a million people decked out Camo and ghille suits with guns and bayonettes showed up, we would have to decide who we would have run the new government, as I am more than certain that the old one would just leave...LOL
Just an attempt at humor, not making light of your point. I do see the problems inherent in having that many firearms out there with a number of unkowns.
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4. If a million people decked out in camo or ghillie suits carrying guns, some with bayonets, and more than a few locked and loaded or carrying inappropriately or illegally (see "stupid" comment above), it will be a field day for our enemies, so we need to do all we can to avoid that.
If a million people decked out Camo and ghille suits with guns and bayonettes showed up, we would have to decide who we would have run the new government, as I am more than certain that the old one would just leave...LOL
Just an attempt at humor, not making light of your point. I do see the problems inherent in having that many firearms out there with a number of unkowns.
Or die of fright ;D
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If a million people decked out Camo and ghille suits with guns and bayonettes showed up, we would have to decide who we would have run the new government, as I am more than certain that the old one would just leave...LOL
Or die of fright ;D
Either one works for me. ;D
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I say we all show up in professional attire, partially just to get the point across, but also so the media will have more trouble judging the color of anyone's neck. If this doesn't go down, I may go alone next June. I'll put on a sandwich board and march around the capitol.
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Everyone should show up in decked out in full regalia from Revolutionary era.
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Everyone should show up in decked out in full regalia from Revolutionary era.
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We would have to do it in the winter or we would wind up with that revolutionary era funk, don't ya know. That would be pretty neat, though. You know, we should all put this up on other boards to get it some more exposure. Also come up with a name for it. Maybe "The Patriot Group" or something. Ideas?
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Everyone should show up in decked out in full regalia from Revolutionary era.
Dec. 15 1774 was the date that arms and powder were stolen from Fort William and Mary in Portsmouth NH. These were the arms the Redcoats were attempting to seize in April of 1775.
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Everyone should show up in decked out in full regalia from Revolutionary era.
I like this. This attire sends a subtle yet very profound message. On the other hand, would it be OK if I didn't wear a wig and tights? ;D
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I like this. This attire sends a subtle yet very profound message. On the other hand, would it be OK if I didn't wear a wig and tights? ;D
Well, you could wear a wig and tights but you would have to wear a lot more too. This ain't no gay pride parade!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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This post kind of died out over the last week or so. I will try to keep it near the top of the page so folks are more apt to look at it. I think there are some good ideas here and we need to generate more.
Tom
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The day they come to take my guns.
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Bump, because it needs it
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…There need be no ambiguity about this. Nor is it farfetched. Notice the slave laws are no longer in force, even though they had Supreme Court approval for seventy years. Is it reasonable a Constitutional Amendment invalidated the slave laws, yet another, older Amendment doesn’t invalidate the gun laws? Who today would support a “reasonable compromise” that allows owning slaves with some “common sense” conditions? Nobody. Non-negotiable is non-negotiable. And so is the right to keep and bear arms…
– Ol’ Remus, in the latest Woodpile Report
http://www.woodpilereport.com/html/index-306.htm
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Currently reading the book - The War of All the People: The Nexus of Latin American Radicalism and Middle Eastern Terrorism by Jon B. Perdue, Stephen Johnson.
Gives a history of lefty groups both abroad and those close to home, how they are connected to lefty/lib/Marxist/socialist people throughout the world. How countries like Mexico have been infiltrated by terrorist groups, how the left isn't fighting from the outside but from within (elected to Gov. positions) to destroy the U.S., how the U.S. better wake up to the threat from the Latin-American countries (Mexico). I feel we get closer to the answer to your question every day.
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Currently reading the book - The War of All the People: The Nexus of Latin American Radicalism and Middle Eastern Terrorism by Jon B. Perdue, Stephen Johnson.
Gives a history of lefty groups both abroad and those close to home, how they are connected to lefty/lib/Marxist/socialist people throughout the world. How countries like Mexico have been infiltrated by terrorist groups, how the left isn't fighting from the outside but from within (elected to Gov. positions) to destroy the U.S., how the U.S. better wake up to the threat from the Latin-American countries (Mexico). I feel we get closer to the answer to your question every day.
This is exactly what I have been talking about when I harp on America spending decades fighting the wrong Cold War.
The conflict was not between nations, but between idea's.
The threat was not the Soviet Union, but the "progressive" elements infiltrating our own institutions as seen in todays media and education industries.
It is interesting to note that while today's terrorist training camps may be focused on Muslim Jihad, those of the past in places like Libya were often training people from violently opposed factions at the same time, sometimes in the the same class.
For example students from both IRA, and Irish Protestant groups.
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My answer to when? is;
Not Now and not Never. I have not been able to narrow it down much more than that yet!
For me one way to say what has made this country great and unique is its foundation on Individual Liberty which can also be called Individual Responsibility.
So I reframe your question into: At what point does my commitment to Individual Responsibility cause me to choose to revolt and bring down the govt?
I think a more realistic scenario is succession of a state or states (say Utah, Nevada, Arizona) into a liberty zone. I would join at least until the pols and lawyers screwed it up!
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My answer to when? is;
Not Now and not Never. I have not been able to narrow it down much more than that yet!
For me one way to say what has made this country great and unique is its foundation on Individual Liberty which can also be called Individual Responsibility.
So I reframe your question into: At what point does my commitment to Individual Responsibility cause me to choose to revolt and bring down the govt?
I think a more realistic scenario is succession of a state or states (say Utah, Nevada, Arizona) into a liberty zone. I would join at least until the pols and lawyers screwed it up!
I'm sure glad those guys in Lexington and Concord did not think like you.
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My answer to when? is;
Not Now and not Never. I have not been able to narrow it down much more than that yet!
For me one way to say what has made this country great and unique is its foundation on Individual Liberty which can also be called Individual Responsibility.
So I reframe your question into: At what point does my commitment to Individual Responsibility cause me to choose to revolt and bring down the govt?
I think a more realistic scenario is succession of a state or states (say Utah, Nevada, Arizona) into a liberty zone. I would join at least until the pols and lawyers screwed it up!
Target rich post, thank you. Individual Responsibility was never an easy task, nor should it be. The problem with society today is that it is very easy to "coast", watching MNF, drinking beer, paying taxes, shuttling kids here and there and cursing politicians for their actions or in-actions but never doing ANYTHING about it.
Succession has been tried and the result was the BLOODIEST war fought on US soil, the one and only Civil War. Our country is broken, the rules are not being followed and no one, NO ONE, is questioning the actions of the powers that be. Do you realize that two of the first Supreme Court justices were removed from their posts for being drunk in PRIVATE and for cursing? We are so far off course it will either take a long haul-gentle-course correction or and immediate hard right. Neither of which seems to be supported by either political party.
The day will come, it WILL come, when you will have the choice to resist or register/turn in your guns. If not you, your children. It sucks I know, no one wants to think it is even possible let alone likely that our .gov will force us to armed resistance- there is a term "Normaliy Bias" that is applicable here, that is it causes people to underestimate both the possibility of a disaster occurring and its possible effects.
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Every where through out history people have said "Oh, that can't happen here." right up till the day it does.
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I'm sure glad those guys in Lexington and Concord did not think like you.
Actually I believe that they did think like me. You asked about violence. Not protest or political action or complaining.
Some sort of insurrection today would look like Browns Ferry and be viewed as wacko militias threatening the public if for no other reason than we are geographically mixed in with the sheep. We are not fighting wolves but a chronic wasting disease. We are more like 1700's England than the wilds of America. Our ancestors voted with their feet first and then fought back.
Acting out because you are mad is not a plan it is surrender.
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We've been following your plan for 80 years and it has been a miserable failure .
We've gone from minor annoyances like a tax system that violates the Constitution to an administration that thinks it's OK to take out unpopular citizens with a missile attack.
Not what I would consider progress.
And I think you mean "Harper's Ferry".
On that subject it is worth noting that the Civil war started in the 1850's in Kansas, and Missouri, long before the fighting became general in 1861.
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The Civil War started in 1789 when we allowed the first big compromise (on slavery) to be included in the Constitution, long before any hostilities. And in history, "it can't happen here" usually isn't rued until the day AFTER it happens...kinda like you have to pass the bill so you can see what's in it.
In my opinion, we don't start shooting until after all other recourse is expended. If we claim to be supporters of the Constitution, then we should use that document's provisions to reclaim our rights and restore that document to its rightful place in our country.
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<snip>. If we claim to be supporters of the Constitution, then we should use that document's provisions to reclaim our rights and restore that document to its rightful place in our country.
That would be the first thing to do. Our founders for years petitioned the English and their King to honor the contracts and covenants they made with us. They made great efforts to avoid rebellion and then separated themselves with cause when the foundation of separation was self-evident and the recourse was exhausted. "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. " <snip>.
Laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle us. It's very important to remember that or there will be failure. The War Between The States may have turned out differently had that thought been foremost and that the effort managed differently.
Not to be picky here guys, but if this nation "blows up" into a civil war it will not look like the "Civil War" which was actually a war between two nations. What we will have will be much more like Kosovo, etc. If that ever happens it will be hell to live and work in a city.
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So, does any of this look familiar today with a few slight twists?
•He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
•He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
•He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
•He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
•He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
•He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
•He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
•He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
•He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
•He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
•He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
•He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
•He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their acts of pretended Legislation: ◦For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
◦For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
◦For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
◦For imposing taxes on us without our Consent:
◦For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
◦For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
◦For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
◦For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
◦For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
•He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
•He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
•He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
•He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
•He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions
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Thank you Rastus.
If I had replied to that post I would have questioned, first his intelligence and then his manhood.
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Thank you Rastus.
If I had replied to that post I would have questioned, first his intelligence and then his manhood.
Not always a good thing to do. Even though you and I disagree on things we should remain cognizant that this is often an educational effort and leave rank inflammatory and non-productive comments out of things. As you know, that's not something I'm always good at. I need to find that thread where I disagree with something you wrote to spin you up a bit now.
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We've been following your plan for 80 years and it has been a miserable failure .
And I think you mean "Harper's Ferry".
Not My plan as I have not reached 80 yet! I am just playing the cards I am dealt.
Yes it was John Brown' raid that did not spark a rebellion as he had planned. Can you imagine the sheeple actually having enough of a clue to rebel against their twittering mind control trend setters. I am not betting my future on them.
They voted to put BHO back in power. What else do you need to know about their situational awareness?
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50.5 % with wide spread vote fraud being common knowledge.
I will remind you that at the time Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown there were more "Americans" serving in the Kings forces than in the Continental Army.
John Browns raid at Harper's Ferry may not have brought on general fighting in the East but again I remind you, in Kansas and Missouri where he came from there had been open warfare for years of the type that could be expected today, neighbors who thought one way killing neighbors who thought the other way.
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Lock and load, here it comes.
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Lock and load, here it comes.
Use 'em or lose 'em.
There has to be a line in the sand some where and any one who thinks it can be after gun registration, or confiscation will desreve what they get.
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JoeG you seem like a very savvy bloke, with a cogniscent awareness. The wheat amongst the chaffe,... I would urge and encourage you to read Col. Jeff Cooper.
A wise and sage Marine, that left action and deeds that was intentional for us to consider.
"One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street ... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time."
"All the people constitute the militia - according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the 'well-regulated' militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment .... Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M-16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen."
"The conclusions seem inescapable that in certain circles a tendency has arisen to fear people who fear government. Government, as the Father of Our Country put it so well, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. People who understand history, especially the history of government, do well to fear it. For a people to express openly their fear of those of us who are afraid of tyranny is alarming. Fear of the state is in no sense subversive. It is, to the contrary, the healthiest political philosophy for a free people."
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/425108_458716334152332_1315367316_n_zps2e90fac9.jpg)
It is interesting to hear certain kinds of people insist that the citizen cannot fight the government. This would have been news to the men of Lexington and Concord, as well as the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan. The citizen most certainly can fight the government, and usually wins when he tries. Organized national armies are useful primarily for fighting against other organized national armies. When they try to fight against the people, they find themselves at a very serious disadvantage. If you will just look around at the state of the world today, you will see that the guerillero has the upper hand. Irregulars usually defeat regulars, providing they have the will. Such fighting is horrible to contemplate, but will continue to dominate brute strength.
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The citizen most certainly can fight the government, and usually wins when he tries. Organized national armies are useful primarily for fighting against other organized national armies. When they try to fight against the people, they find themselves at a very serious disadvantage. If you will just look around at the state of the world today, you will see that the guerillero has the upper hand. Irregulars usually defeat regulars, providing they have the will. Such fighting is horrible to contemplate, but will continue to dominate brute strength.
That's the key. It has to be a large group of people standing together. Not a lone person. If someone went out tonight and started shooting, they would be lumped right in with all the wack-jobs like the L.A. cop killer, that orange haired Colorado punk, and the cowardly child killer in Newtown.
All that person would do is give more political ammo to the entrenched who want all guns taken away.
Small groups aren't big enough either. They'd be called "homegrown" terrorists.
The only time something so drastic should be considered is when entire counties stand united against threats and tyranny against the citizens of the United States.
Show me one county commission that presented, voted on, and approved the use of violence against any act of firearm regulation and/or confiscation and I'll freely state the time is close.
Until then, it's just wind.
As of now, I choose to fight with words, letters, and conviction; not bullets.
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That's the key. It has to be a large group of people standing together. Not a lone person. If someone went out tonight and started shooting, they would be lumped right in with all the wack-jobs like the L.A. cop killer, that orange haired Colorado punk, and the cowardly child killer in Newtown.
All that person would do is give more political ammo to the entrenched who want all guns taken away.
Small groups aren't big enough either. They'd be called "homegrown" terrorists.
The only time something so drastic should be considered is when entire counties stand united against threats and tyranny against the citizens of the United States.
Show me one county commission that presented, voted on, and approved the use of violence against any act of firearm regulation and/or confiscation and I'll freely state the time is close.
Until then, it's just wind.
As of now, I choose to fight with words, letters, and conviction; not bullets.
Oh horse crap.
American Revolution, 3% fought for freedom
The American Indians spent more time fighting each other than the Whites and it still took over 200 years to defeat them.
Then of course there are the Viet Cong who operated mostly with out NVA troops until 1968.
Then the Afghans against the Soviets. That's just 4 examples history shows that a "majority" is never needed in a rebellion, just guts which seems to be the one thing lacking in America today.
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Then I humbly stand corrected.
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One other would be the Warsaw Ghetto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
A handful of "rebels" made a laughing stock of Europes strongest forces for months with a handful of rag tag arms and guerilla tactics.
Those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
I pray it is not repeated......
But I will damn sure remind them of it.
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You may get a test case for your theories here in NJ if things keep going the way they've been. The arrogance in our state government is staggering and completely out of touch with the voters, with reality, and with their duties as public officials.
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One other would be the Warsaw Ghetto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
A handful of "rebels" made a laughing stock of Europes strongest forces for months with a handful of rag tag arms and guerilla tactics.
Those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
I pray it is not repeated......
But I will damn sure remind them of it.
Something to remember is that the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto held out longer than either Poland or France .
Man or mouse time for M58.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=22000.0;topicseen
Minnesota Democrats are pushing similar legislation using nearly identical language as the Missouri bill.
MN H.F. No. 241, as introduced – 88th Legislative Session (2013-2014) Posted on Jan 31, 2013
10.20 Sec. 7. PERSONS POSSESSING ASSAULT WEAPONS ON EFFECTIVE DATE
ACT; REQUIRED ACTIONS.
Any person who, on February 1, 2013, legally owns or is in possession of an assault weapon has until September 1, 2013, to do any of the following without being subject to
prosecution under Minnesota Statutes, section 624.7133:
(1) remove the weapon from the state;
(2) surrender the weapon to a law enforcement agency for destruction;
(3) render the weapon permanently inoperable; or
(4) if eligible, register the weapon as provided in Minnesota Statutes, section 624.7133, subdivision 5.
EFFECTIVE DATE.This section is effective the day following final enactment.
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My answer to when? is;
Not Now and not Never. I have not been able to narrow it down much more than that yet!
Just make sure the abuse is warranted, Did you understand that I meant that I am not there yet but that it it does seem likely that we will end up moving from political protest to a "more aggressive posture" at some point. I am watching but unwilling to provide the asshole opposition with specific details.
I believe that the lesson of the Warsaw ghetto is that you cannot let them take your firearms away or you are lost. The recognition that threat levels had reached a new high after 9/11 was one a big reason for me to return to shooting after 30 years away and teach my son. (Beside that it has been fun.)
One of the lessons that I had to learn when I took on my corporate security role 15 years ago was to be clear about my scope of responsibility. I am charged with keeping our employees safe not with "putting criminals away". If I can get the threat out of my workplace with a minimum of impact and minimal emotional attachment to my company then I have succeeded. If that includes putting a scary bastard away by assisting the police that is gravy, Not My Job.
My kids safety is my job, then mine, then friends and family within reason. I am prepared to do what it takes for that mission. While I am prepared to give my life for the ideals of the constitution which I consider the single greatest human achievement outside of science, that does not mean I will throw it away for the sheeple.
I do not believe there are enough folks left in the country who even understand the constitution to save the whole nation at this point. that is why I suspect that those of us with a clue will eventually congregate in regions that we can defend politically as well as physically. NY and CA are in my opinion lost causes without some dramatic significant emotional event that changes the sheeple's behavior.
At this point in time, I decline to expend my life attempting to be the catalyst for that event. They will just change the channel.
Highest regards for the grit to grapple with reality.
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Just make sure the abuse is warranted, Did you understand that I meant that I am not there yet but that it it does seem likely that we will end up moving from political protest to a "more aggressive posture" at some point. I am watching but unwilling to provide the asshole opposition with specific details.
I believe that the lesson of the Warsaw ghetto is that you cannot let them take your firearms away or you are lost. The recognition that threat levels had reached a new high after 9/11 was one a big reason for me to return to shooting after 30 years away and teach my son. (Beside that it has been fun.)
One of the lessons that I had to learn when I took on my corporate security role 15 years ago was to be clear about my scope of responsibility. I am charged with keeping our employees safe not with "putting criminals away". If I can get the threat out of my workplace with a minimum of impact and minimal emotional attachment to my company then I have succeeded. If that includes putting a scary bastard away by assisting the police that is gravy, Not My Job.
My kids safety is my job, then mine, then friends and family within reason. I am prepared to do what it takes for that mission. While I am prepared to give my life for the ideals of the constitution which I consider the single greatest human achievement outside of science, that does not mean I will throw it away for the sheeple.
I do not believe there are enough folks left in the country who even understand the constitution to save the whole nation at this point. that is why I suspect that those of us with a clue will eventually congregate in regions that we can defend politically as well as physically. NY and CA are in my opinion lost causes without some dramatic significant emotional event that changes the sheeple's behavior.
At this point in time, I decline to expend my life attempting to be the catalyst for that event. They will just change the channel.
Highest regards for the grit to grapple with reality.
That post absolutely deserves favorable comment , especially the highlighted part .
Unfortunately I haven't completely formulated one yet beyond 2 items.
1 individual action beyond self defense is useless since it would be unlikely to be large enough to be effective and any individual action would be portrayed as a "lunatic" as were Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians.
2 Choice of stronghold regions would need to take into account strategic considerations besides merely the political climate, access to resources is an absolute need, as well as access, preferably to both ocean traffic and an international border for purposes of supply.
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Choice of stronghold regions would need to take into account strategic considerations besides merely the political climate, access to resources is an absolute need, as well as access, preferably to both ocean traffic and an international border for purposes of supply.
Texas. I'm trying to convince Mrs. FBG we need to go. She ain't wearing a tinfoil hat, yet, but I'm trying.
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Just let me know, you know where to find me 8)
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Ulmus, I think you were right, so stand your ground. The USAF (actually it was a general in the old Army Air Corps) once said "if you are taking flak, you must be over the target". When Tom attacks your intelligence or your manhood, well that's just like taking flak. Rastus, thanks for reminding me of the bill of particulars against the King. So how many of them fit the current monarch and do all have be a fit before you act?
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I did this off the top of my head, if any one sees offenses I've missed please post them
•He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
No budget since he took office
•He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
Law suit against Az for enforcing Immigration laws
•He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
Obama care
•He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
•He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
•He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
•He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
A bunch of those "Agenda 21 " EPA and BLM "policies" probably fulfill this one
•He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
Philly Black Panther voter intimidation, his meddling in the Gates and Zimmerman cases probably qualifies as well.
•He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
•He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
Obamacare and Czars
•He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
•He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
•He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their acts of pretended Legislation: ◦For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
◦For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
Going to the UN instead of Congress for "war powers" in Libya. Plus, the Ft Hood terrorist has still not seen trial, and of course the 2 seperate drone murders of Alawi and his 16 year old son.
◦For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
◦For imposing taxes on us without our Consent:
Obamacare again.
◦For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
◦For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
◦For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
◦For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
◦For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
•He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
•He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
•He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
•He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
•He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions
His policy of racial and class divisiveness fills this role, but so wouldn't his support for the Muslim Brotherhood uprisings and weapons sales
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So, if any of those highlighted are high crimes and misdemeanors why don't we impeach him?
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So, if any of those highlighted are high crimes and misdemeanors why don't we impeach him?
Because the House has to many nutless RINO's and the Senate is run by his co conspirators.
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Ulmus, I think you were right, so stand your ground. The USAF (actually it was a general in the old Army Air Corps) once said "if you are taking flak, you must be over the target". When Tom attacks your intelligence or your manhood, well that's just like taking flak. Rastus, thanks for reminding me of the bill of particulars against the King. So how many of them fit the current monarch and do all have be a fit before you act?
Thanks for the kind words. Tom and I disagree on many things and this one would've just ended up with a lot of time wasted on useless posts that wouldn't change either of our minds. (In a way, we are similar with our stubborness. :) )
The three percenters theory doesn't work for me because I don't see three percent of the three percenters leading. I've been looking for anyone offering to lead and found only one. This guy.
http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/02/police-chief-wants-citizens-as-reserve-force-to-defend-against-feds/ (http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/02/police-chief-wants-citizens-as-reserve-force-to-defend-against-feds/)
I have no idea how many have taken up his offer; but I do know that there are 5681 members here and don't see 168 (3%) agreeing with the notion.
However, I did forget the entire reason for this post.
The whole purpose of this post is to spark debate
And that it did. There are 25 members who commented on this post. (That's 14% of the 3%) Job well done. :)
As for when we start shooting? It's gotta get much worse than what it is now. If I was to call it on the Defcon level, I'd say we were at a "3". There's been group protests and mass letters on our side. Psychologically the next "aggressive steps" towards a shooting scenario (in theory) woukd be:
Forced gun confisaction by authorities on a mass scale. (City, county wide)
Destructive retaliation by civilians. (arson/riots)
Authorized killing of said civilians by authorities. (Maybe even accidental)
Bingo! Shooting scenario.
While I've heard of many states trying to authorize or have authorized confiscation, I've yet to hear of it starting in a mass scale.
Until then, it's just a shouting match.
As far as I'm concerned the question shouldn't be "When do we start shooting?" but "What do we do to prevent a shooting scenario?"
I'd rather try to get my State legislators to create a law/policy/whatever that not only protects what we have now, but insures we can get whatever weapon system is developed in th future as well.
If the state legislator have restricted or coid my 2nd amendment rights, I'd try to get all the pro 2nd amendment county commisioners and city commisioners to rally against the state legislators and their oppressive laws.
That's where are energy needs to be spent on, not distracting posts.
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I'm not any kind of sociologist or psychologist but I suspect the shooting might start with the Forced Gun Confiscation.
Didn't hear of that happening during the gun grab with Katrina, but there were neighborhoods where folks did have an armed Neighborhood watch. Don't know if they were outside the city or inside and wisely left alone.
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I'm no phsycologist either. I just look at patterns and trends.
You are right. There is achance the shooting could start with gun confiscation. It all depends on how it's done, where, and what sort of air play it gets.
Katrina was a different scenario where the people did not band together but splintered because of the effects and aftermath of the hurricane. There is no outside force to distract anyone this time.
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Was just thinking about how/where people might come together....
Figure maybe I should visit the local VFW and American Legion.
Might be just talk there...but don't know till you listen in.
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Great idea.
I'd love to read about what you find. 8)
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Came across a Frontsight ad and Piazza seems to be following TomB's view of "Use them or lose them."
"What is the difference between a man who has no gun; and one who has a gun, but refuses or fails to use it?"
The one thing the gun grabbers can't stop is your ability and willingness to use the gun(s) you do have.
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If anyone can get people to join together, it just might get interesting.