The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: 2HOW on September 03, 2008, 07:31:04 PM
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Im gonna build up my 1300 and along with mechanical improvements I want some tips on ammo. I have come to the conclusion that 00 buck is the load to use but what about things like hardened shot and buffers to keep the shot from deforming too soon? all advice will be welcome. also advice on slugs for a cylinder bore 18" barrel..
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Copper or nickel-plated shot is preferred because of the lubricity. It doesn't deform as much and either chilled lead or high antimony lead and produces better patterns. In addition, buffers will result in better patterns. However, buffers can do odd things to pressure levels and the loading must be adjusted accordingly. 00 buck is the industry standard and pretty much can't be beat (exempting odd situations). However, if you would like to up the effectiveness of your weapon, Hevi-Shot buckshot can be purchased (at a hefty price). Its density is greater than lead and it basically the Holy Grail of shot. If you really want to get the most out of a shotshell load, you're going to need to get into reloading. MEC single-stage reloaders are a good starting point and Ballistic Products offers a good variety of wads that will allow you to tailor a load to your specifications. Many people consider cylinder bore acceptable for most situations, however, I am an adamant believer in screw-in chokes. Good luck and have fun!
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Hey 2HOW, Rob Pincus at the Valhalla Elk Mountain training facility in Co, and his ICE training, ran through this scenario with shotguns for home defense.http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1322226816
Since your post didn't mention what type of application you want, target, clays, hunting, SD, etc,.. if I'm missing the mark, I apologize and just disregard.
For a home defense environment, Pincus demonstrated with walls, halls, bedrooms, and simulated badguys, the effects of different 2 3/4" and 3" rounds in the home with standard construction, 2X4 studs, and sheetrock walls.
Surprisingly to me, #9 , 2 3/4" shot created the most damage at close range, (less than 7 yards), without overpenetration into an adjoining bedroom where one could have the rest of the family in a safe room type scenario.
Slugs WILL work, no question. Depends on your residential environment, neighbors, kids, the mother-in-law, (nevermind) ::)
#2, 00 Buckshot, 9 pellet was the next choice. But all work. His point was TACTICS. Stalking the BG with a 1300, as you know, requires a really good sense of who,what and where.
Your talking about one of the most powerful defensive platforms at close range on the planet.
Hardened shot and buffers won't make a difference in the home defense scenario. The lethality will be well, its a shotgun at close range,...
If you were referring to another type of application, other than home defense, I apologize.
My Rem 870 is kept "close" with #2, 00 Buck, staggered with #9, and the last 2 are 3" Sabot Slugs, if it has to get to that point, increase the damage potential, until I get my "black rifle". I hope it never gets to that point at all, but I am a firm advocate of the castle doctrine.
Again, sorry if I misunderstood your post.
Just my .02 cents.
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I saw the "defensive" loads in the title,.. sorry. My bad.
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A lot depends on the range. Bird shot may work at 10 feet well, buffers and premium shot can extend the range out to about 70 yards, but that seems a bit more offensive than defensive...
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Im thinkin out to about 50 yards max , not worried about collateral damage. there are slugs and rifled slugs right? no rifled slugs for cyinder bore right? what is the least amount of pellets in 00 buck ? is it 9 ? I thought you could go as low as 4? what advantage does 3" have over 2 3/4 ?
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Pretty good specs and data on this Remington LEO section.
http://www.remingtonle.com/ammo/ss_tac8.htm
8 pellet, 1325 fps. 2 3/4"
Difference between 2 3/4 + 3? Not much for SD.
What limits a shotgun is chamber pressure. The high velocity slugs in 2 3/4" are pretty much maxing out the chamber pressure with great accuracy. The 3" slugs are using a slower burning magnum powder to gain a slightly higher muzzle velocity (sometimes), however, the 2 3/4" seem to be more accurate and many are actually faster than the 3" mags. Check out the ballistics on some of the newer sabot slugs in 2 3/4". I don't mind the recoil at all and have shot almost every slug out there to find the best performing out of my gun. So far the 2 3/4" have been the most accurate, fastest, and hardest kicking.
Who or whatever is on the receiving end of either size, won't matter.
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For what it's worth, I have liked the Federal LE 132 00 Buck.
I load only 00 in the magazine. I carry 5 slugs on a butt pouch and practice exchanging slugs for buckshot if the need would arise to take on targets over 30 yards. With a little practice not very hard and pretty quick with an 870.
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The 1300 is a nice shotgun. We had those in the army. For your range full-power 00 Buck would be hard to beat. I like the non-magnum 9-pellet loads. It will likely do better with something other than Cylinder bore. Improved Cylinder is almost always better for slugs and shot. Most of the high-tech slugs require a rifled barrel or rifled choke tube to live up to their reputation. Brenneke and Foster type rifled slugs are good for smoothbores. Buffered shot is mostly to avoid deformation going through the choke that you don't even have. They're a waste of money IMO.
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Im gonna build up my 1300 and along with mechanical improvements I want some tips on ammo. I have come to the conclusion that 00 buck is the load to use but what about things like hardened shot and buffers to keep the shot from deforming too soon? all advice will be welcome. also advice on slugs for a cylinder bore 18" barrel..
Good choice in shotguns.
I have a 1300 Defender with the 8-shot tube.
I load 3 rounds of Remington #4 pheasant loads, then 3 rounds of Remington 00 Buck, and 2 rounds of Winchester Slugs.
I hope I never need it, but I think it will help me get the job done....or....at least get me to more firepower.
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If you want to specialize, you can also load "buck and ball" loads---a hybridization of buckshot and slugs.
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Good choice in shotguns.
I have a 1300 Defender with the 8-shot tube.
I load 3 rounds of Remington #4 pheasant loads, then 3 rounds of Remington 00 Buck, and 2 rounds of Winchester Slugs.
I hope I never need it, but I think it will help me get the job done....or....at least get me to more firepower.
I have the same, going to put a speed feed pistol grip stock and some good sites, along with some other goodies. I have been loading #4 but after 30 ft. its not very effective. Ive had the gun for a long time and its time to get it up to par and ready to go.
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#4 not effective past 10 yards? Something isn't right.
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It would be effective on me a lot farther out than that. ;D You must expect a lot tougher varmints.
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If you want to specialize, you can also load "buck and ball" loads---a hybridization of buckshot and slugs.
I like many others refer to this type of loading as "candy striping" and is done with many variations of loads, but in a house I use a 6 or 8 for the first 2 rounds then follows by a slug and then back to the standard number 6. For out in the woods where I mifgt meet up with Mr. and Mrs. Yogi and the little ones its all slugs!
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Buck and ball was around in colonial times. George Washinton even used it. You drop a round ball down the musket barrel followed by some buckshot so you have it all in one shot. Even near misses count. :) Hand-loading your own shotgun shells would be cheaper but I've seen loaded buck and ball ammo for sale too. The best deal I've found is at the Sportsman's Guide. It's a .65 caliber ball and 6 #1 Buckshot. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126 Duplex loads are along the same lines but have buck and birdshot or two birdshot sizes instead of a slug or round ball in it.
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Buck and ball was around in colonial times. George Washinton even used it. You drop a round ball down the musket barrel followed by some buckshot so you have it all in one shot. Even near misses count. :) Hand-loading your own shotgun shells would be cheaper but I've seen loaded buck and ball ammo for sale too. The best deal I've found is at the Sportsman's Guide. It's a .65 caliber ball and 6 #1 Buckshot. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126 Duplex loads are along the same lines but have buck and birdshot or two birdshot sizes instead of a slug or round ball in it.
It was also a standard load for muskets in the early days of the Civil war.
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Buck and ball was around in colonial times. George Washinton even used it. You drop a round ball down the musket barrel followed by some buckshot so you have it all in one shot. Even near misses count. :) Hand-loading your own shotgun shells would be cheaper but I've seen loaded buck and ball ammo for sale too. The best deal I've found is at the Sportsman's Guide. It's a .65 caliber ball and 6 #1 Buckshot. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126 Duplex loads are along the same lines but have buck and birdshot or two birdshot sizes instead of a slug or round ball in it.
I've have this same load in my FN Police Shotgun (Winchester 1300). I think it would be pretty effective in any situation. Buyer comments from sportsman's guide below:
Very impressive, will be ordering this item again in the future
JOE / KAREN L, FLOODWOOD, MN 8/27/2008 9:20:36 AM
Awesome
JAMES W, DERRY, NH 8/5/2008 1:49:48 PM
Awesome pattern at 25 yards.
KRISTOPHER, BRISTOL, FL 8/5/2008 8:37:35 AM
Good deal and good product
GREGG, FEDERAL WAY, WA 8/2/2008 8:56:07 AM
THEY ARE A GREAT SHELL
GREGORY R, SEYMOUR, TN 7/20/2008 8:33:34 AM
THEY WILL DO THE JOB
GREGORY R, SEYMOUR, TN 7/8/2008 9:48:14 AM
Perfect for when you can't decide between a slug and buckshot. Great performance.
CLIFF, KALISPELL, MT 6/3/2008 8:56:31 PM
I've never seen these anywhere else, and feel it's a great home defense round....hope I never have to try it. I'd feel sorry for whoever is on the wrong side of this load!
KEVIN, RIVERSIDE, CA 5/29/2008 10:11:20 AM
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I remember reading long ago that #4 Buck was shown by the military to be the optimum vacination for bad guys. I may have run across it in Ackley or one of the other writers back in the 60's.
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When I used Buckshot for home defense it was #4. I think 27 pellets is 3 times as good as 9 pellets. At my range it has all the penetration I need and would make 3 times as many holes as 00. Multiple wounds on the bad guy is always better. If I was shooting at people 50 yards away I would rather have 00 but my house is only 8 yards across. Smaller shot is better for me.
If that didn't do the trick I used to have some S&W police ammo with extra hard BRI sabot slugs. They were made specifically to shoot through car wheels and crack engine blocks. I don't think a bad guy wearing body armor would have a chance. 4 or 5 rounds of 27-pellet #4 Buck and a couple of those slugs made me feel safe until I got a pistol that works better for inside the house.
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When I used Buckshot for home defense it was #4. I think 27 pellets is 3 times as good as 9 pellets. At my range it has all the penetration I need and would make 3 times as many holes as 00. Multiple wounds on the bad guy is always better. If I was shooting at people 50 yards away I would rather have 00 but my house is only 8 yards across. Smaller shot is better for me.
If that didn't do the trick I used to have some S&W police ammo with extra hard BRI sabot slugs. They were made specifically to shoot through car wheels and crack engine blocks. I don't think a bad guy wearing body armor would have a chance. 4 or 5 rounds of 27-pellet #4 Buck and a couple of those slugs made me feel safe until I got a pistol that works better for inside the house.
Very good point.
I measured, and the longest possible shot (across open space, from cover to cover) anywhere in my house is 50 feet.
Heck, rock salt would work there... :) .
You have to go with what is best for your given situation.
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I think the buck and ball is what Im after, Im always in the sportsmans guide dont know how I missed it. Thanks Jumbofrank. Thank all of yoy for the input. :)
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No thanks neccesary. I added 100 rounds to my cart so when I go shopping for something else it's waiting for me. Flechette ammo is really cool too. It has about 20-40 little steel darts compared to 9 pellets of 00 Buck. A shotgun won't nail people to trees like a howitzer in Vietnam would, but it still has long range, good penetration, and a much high hit probability. The army quit using it in 12 gauge years ago when they eliminated the majority of their different types of small arms ammo to streamline the system. But it worked.
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Fleshettes are great for heavy cover, I like the bird bombs also check out this site http://www.firequest.com/catalog/showcase_item_4.html
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House shotgun has Hornady TAPs #00 buckshot...
Michael B
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Fleshettes are great for heavy cover, I like the bird bombs also check out this site http://www.firequest.com/catalog/showcase_item_4.html
I used to have some 37mm bird bombs before they were outlawed as being destructive devices, or whatever stupid thing the government called them. THOSE would scare someone if you lobbed it in their direction. It didn't even have to be close to make them reconsider what they're doing. Not much reason to shoot my flare guns anymore without those awesome bird bombs.