The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: USSA-1 on September 28, 2007, 12:30:06 PM
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All,
I wanted to take this opportunity to say hello. My name is Erik Lund and I have to honor of being a moderator on this forum. I'm a Senior Instructor with the United States Shooting Academy. I'll be dropping by from time to time to check on the forum and offer any assistance I can. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or if there is anything I can help you with. I look forward to developing the Tactical Rifle section into an informative resource that we all can use better our knowledge, skills, and techiques.
Good shooting,
Erik
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Welcome aboard, look forward to your posts. I enjoyed the videos 1,2,3 and 4. I likes me some tactical rifle shooting.
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Nice to meet you. :)
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Hi there Erik.. :)
Glad you have jumped on board. We are so lucky to have you with us here on Down Range.
I will do all I can to not harass or make you blush ( has that ever been done??) too much on here, but as you know,that is a pretty big promise for me to fulfill...but I can give it my best shot.. (http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/225.gif) ;D
I'd like to tell everyone here that you will never meet a better guy than this one. He is top notch!
He's smart, funny, a great conversationalist and to watch him work in his element is nothing less than awesome.
(As you have seen in the video's)
* And to top it off..he is reeeeal nice to look at too (http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/yes.gif)) *
Hope to get to see you soon Erik..and once again.. welcome to the family of Down Range.
Marshal'ette...Teresa
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All,
. . . I'm a Senior Instructor with the United States Shooting Academy. . . . Erik
Welcome Erik - good to have you with us.
My Daughter and family live in Tulsa, so I intend to stop by the USSA next visit.
Crescendo
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erik
love the videos very informative
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Crescendo,
Come on out next weekend. The USPSA 3-Gun Nationals are next weekend at the facility. I'll be out next weekend competing in the match. Bring your daughter along and come say hello. If you've never seen a 3-gun match, you should definitely come out. They are a lot of fun to watch.
Erik
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All,
I wanted to take this opportunity to say hello. My name is Erik Lund and I have to honor of being a moderator on this forum. I'm a Senior Instructor with the United States Shooting Academy. I'll be dropping by from time to time to check on the forum and offer any assistance I can. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or if there is anything I can help you with. I look forward to developing the Tactical Rifle section into an informative resource that we all can use better our knowledge, skills, and techiques.
Good shooting,
Erik
Greetings!
While I hate to beat a dead horse to within an inch of it's life, since you are the Tactical Rifle guy would you like to put in
your two cents about Micheal Bane's July Broadcast about the proper care and feeding of a Juneteenth mob?
I have only reached partial closure on the topic after lo, these many weeks.
Link here: http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=444.0
Best regards and enjoy your time on Downrange TV,
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Greetings!
While I hate to beat a dead horse to within an inch of it's life, since you are the Tactical Rifle guy would you like to put in
your two cents about Micheal Bane's July Broadcast about the proper care and feeding of a Juneteenth mob?
I have only reached partial closure on the topic after lo, these many weeks.
JJ, what's not to get?
1. Don't be there in the first place
2. When things start going hinkey, get the he|| out of there ASAP, lock the car doors and GO! Or head on foot to the woods, away from the crowds, and GO!
3. When you see you way out blocked or difficult, refer back to #2, nothing gets in the way
4. Gunplay in that situation may save your bacon temporarily, but if around a crowd, IMHO you are dead when you pull the trigger the first time, you will not be allowed to survive.
I have been in Chicago when these "festivities" hit the Forest Preserves each June. Trust me, they always brew up at at least one FP. Also trust me, trying to make a stand is a suicide mission, you will not win without about 300 or more of the local PD's finest around you. So be gone and let the PD deal with the mess.
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Crescendo,
Come on out next weekend. The USPSA 3-Gun Nationals are next weekend at the facility. I'll be out next weekend competing in the match. Bring your daughter along and come say hello. If you've never seen a 3-gun match, you should definitely come out. They are a lot of fun to watch. Erik
Thanx Erik - I plan on spending a good bit of time there. Unfortunately, I will not be there for a couple of weeks yet - - but rest assured, I will be be looking you folks up when I get there. After my daughter has her second child (My second Grandchild) I will be having here go through a few basic self-defense classes there.
Looking forward to meeting you - Crescendo
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JJ, what's not to get?
1. Don't be there in the first place
2. When things start going hinkey, get the he|| out of there ASAP, lock the car doors and GO! Or head on foot to the woods, away from the crowds, and GO!
3. When you see you way out blocked or difficult, refer back to #2, nothing gets in the way
4. Gunplay in that situation may save your bacon temporarily, but if around a crowd, IMHO you are dead when you pull the trigger the first time, you will not be allowed to survive.
I have been in Chicago when these "festivities" hit the Forest Preserves each June. Trust me, they always brew up at at least one FP. Also trust me, trying to make a stand is a suicide mission, you will not win without about 300 or more of the local PD's finest around you. So be gone and let the PD deal with the mess.
Boy, you are preaching to the choir here..
Mr. Bane's podcast involved an uncased AK-47 underfolder and a separate magazine in the driver side door pocket mixed together with a combination of legal and political flaming hoops.
The combination of overpenetration and retention issues seemed treacherous to me.
Someone has moved that thread from the podcast forum to this forum since I posted the first message. The URL remains the same.
Best regards,
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Wow! Talk about being thrown into the fire right out the gate!
It looks as though this topic has pretty well run its course and I would echo the advise given by Pathfinder as avoiding this predicament is your best option, but I will touch upon two aspects related more to selection of a rifle for this particular situation.
First, selecting an AK for use or deployment from a vehicle. I did manage to listen to the pod cast in question, but I did not read the blog or other discussions, so please excuse me if this has already been covered. The idea of using a weapons platform that does not have a buffer tube to allow for a true folding stock is a valid concern. Even 11" AR's can be cumbersome in a confined space such as a vehicle. Note I said "cumbersome", not unmanageable. I still see images of Marines using 20" M16's in full battle gear, operating inside HUMVEE's during convoy operations. It can be done, but it does take some training and practice. A rifle with a folding stock will greatly improve confined space movement. Having said that, I would not select an AK. I say this purely for perceptional reasons. No one can deny the reliability and durability of the AK. It's biggest problem is perception. An AK is what the black hat is to an old western movie- bad guy. No matter what the situation, if you deploy an AK in any kind of public setting, you will be deemed to be a bad guy, terrorist (either foreign or domestic), or active shooter nutcase. I doubt very much that any LE would even give you the chance to demonstrate your intentions. Most LE would shoot on the sight of an AK simply because of what it represents. The second you started cranking rounds into the air to disperse the crowd, you'd have rounds in the air coming your way.
I would strongly consider some other platform that does not convey immediate bad guy status.
Second, penetration and retention issues. Proper load selection, even with an AK will help with penetration issues, but the fact remains that mobs are by their very nature defined by large masses of people in a very tight group or confined space. Any firearm is going to have penetration issues because if the bullet leaves the body, it will have an extremely high probability of hitting another person. It's an issue of odds more than overpenetration. Give the penetration concern its due diligence, but I would not let it rule my decision were I faced with a potential mob situation.
Retention concerns? I wouldn't be concerned with it. You can defeat one or two subjects trying to disarm you if your skilled at CQB retention technques, but not 5, 10, 20, or 30 etc., you get my point. If a person is close enough to you to take a rife away from you, he's close enough to get your pistol. It may require a little more skill or determination, but it can still be done. I would not shy away from a long gun in this situation. The intimidation factor alone may be enough to cause a mob to back off, but if the mob is determined, only for a short time.
Erik
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Erik,
Welcome, even though I am a bit late, and they already put you in the scalding pan.. :)
But then Marshal'ette gave you some good ... um... ... cudo's, thats it. :)
-Bidah
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Erik,
Glad you're on the board. I liked all 4 videos. Yesterday I got some trigger time (68, sunny w/slight breeze) and installed a Eotech on my M&P 15. After zero I tried your methods. A lot different than 60's Army training with a M14. I liked the standing position where the stock is close to face and high on the shoulder.
I hope the videos keep coming.
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Wow! Talk about being thrown into the fire right out the gate!
Well, heck, if your friends and disciples can't make your life hot, who can???
;D
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Wow! Talk about being thrown into the fire right out the gate!
It looks as though this topic has pretty well run its course and I would echo the advise given by Pathfinder as avoiding this predicament is your best option, but I will touch upon two aspects related more to selection of a rifle for this particular situation.
Most LE would shoot on the sight of an AK simply because of what it represents. The second you started cranking rounds into the air to disperse the crowd, you'd have rounds in the air coming your way.
I would strongly consider some other platform that does not convey immediate bad guy status.
Second, penetration and retention issues. Proper load selection, even with an AK will help with penetration issues, but the fact remains that mobs are by their very nature defined by large masses of people in a very tight group or confined space.
Retention concerns? I wouldn't be concerned with it. You can defeat one or two subjects trying to disarm you if your skilled at CQB retention technques, but not 5, 10, 20, or 30 etc., you get my point. I
Many thanks for the thoughtful and proportionate response. I had not considered the public relations aspect of AK 47's.
For personal reasons I am slow to join the platform weapon party.
I still believe that if it absolutely, positively must go bang, a bolt action or levergun will have fewer moving parts to break or be unrepairable. AND they do have a much better Public Relations quotient.
The only auto loader action that has me excited is the Benelli Inertial Bolt Setup and other than to handle one a few times I have yet to wring any out in the field.
If we ever restore the Constitution to Government in this country I believe a Benelli Inertial Bolt in a coach shotgun configuration (say 22 inches overall length?) with a box, banana or drum magazine would be the ultimate riot control weapon. You could even
topload beanbags for the first few warning rounds.
Apologies if I threw a hard curve on the first pitch.
Best regards,
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Thanks for joining Eric, your rifle vids are good stuff, I have to add a few of your tips to by bag. Personally in a crowd situation if I have to brandish a rifle, Im bringing my big mean ugly AK , with all the goodies. And do just enough to get out of the AO. I think I would prefer to stay in the car and drive out. But Not being there is the key.