Author Topic: Checking in  (Read 13569 times)

JohnJacobH

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2007, 12:11:13 AM »
JJ, what's not to get?

1. Don't be there in the first place
2. When things start going hinkey, get the he|| out of there ASAP, lock the car doors and GO! Or head on foot to the woods, away from the crowds, and GO!
3. When you see you way out blocked or difficult, refer back to #2, nothing gets in the way
4. Gunplay in that situation may save your bacon temporarily, but if around a crowd, IMHO you are dead when you pull the trigger the first time, you will not be allowed to survive.

I have been in Chicago when these "festivities" hit the Forest Preserves each June. Trust me, they always brew up at at least one FP. Also trust me, trying to make a stand is a suicide mission, you will not win without about 300 or more of the local PD's finest around you. So be gone and let the PD deal with the mess.

Boy, you are preaching to the choir here..

Mr. Bane's podcast involved an uncased AK-47 underfolder and a separate magazine in the driver side door pocket mixed together with a combination of legal and political flaming hoops.

The combination of overpenetration and retention issues seemed treacherous to me.

Someone has moved that thread from the podcast forum to this forum since I posted the first message. The URL remains the same.

Best regards,

USSA-1

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 08:52:03 AM »
Wow! Talk about being thrown into the fire right out the gate!

It looks as though this topic has pretty well run its course and I would echo the advise given by Pathfinder as avoiding this predicament is your best option, but I will touch upon two aspects related more to selection of a rifle for this particular situation.

First, selecting an AK for use or deployment from a vehicle.  I did manage to listen to the pod cast in question, but I did not read the blog or other discussions, so please excuse me if this has already been covered.  The idea of using a weapons platform that does not have a buffer tube to allow for a true folding stock is a valid concern.  Even 11" AR's can be cumbersome in a confined space such as a vehicle.  Note I said "cumbersome", not unmanageable.  I still see images of Marines using 20" M16's in full battle gear, operating inside HUMVEE's during convoy operations.  It can be done, but it does take some training and practice.  A rifle with a folding stock will greatly improve confined space movement.  Having said that, I would not select an AK.  I say this purely for perceptional reasons.  No one can deny the reliability and durability of the AK.  It's biggest problem is perception.  An AK is what the black hat is to an old western movie- bad guy.  No matter what the situation, if you deploy an AK in any kind of public setting, you will be deemed to be a bad guy, terrorist (either foreign or domestic), or active shooter nutcase.  I doubt very much that any LE would even give you the chance to demonstrate your intentions.  Most LE would shoot on the sight of an AK simply because of what it represents.  The second you started cranking rounds into the air to disperse the crowd, you'd have rounds in the air coming your way.

I would strongly consider some other platform that does not convey immediate bad guy status.

Second, penetration and retention issues.  Proper load selection, even with an AK will help with penetration issues, but the fact remains that mobs are by their very nature defined by large masses of people in a very tight group or confined space.  Any firearm is going to have penetration issues because if the bullet leaves the body, it will have an extremely high probability of hitting another person.  It's an issue of odds more than overpenetration.  Give the penetration concern its due diligence, but I would not let it rule my decision were I faced with a potential mob situation.

Retention concerns?  I wouldn't be concerned with it.  You can defeat one or two subjects trying to disarm you if your skilled at CQB retention technques, but not 5, 10, 20, or 30 etc., you get my point.  If a person is close enough to you to take a rife away from you, he's close enough to get your pistol.  It may require a little more skill or determination, but it can still be done.  I would not shy away from a long gun in this situation.  The intimidation factor alone may be enough to cause a mob to back off, but if the mob is determined, only for a short time.

Erik
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Bidah

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 12:40:51 PM »
Erik,

Welcome, even though I am a bit late, and they already put you in the scalding pan.. :) 

But then Marshal'ette gave you some good ... um... ...  cudo's, thats it.  :)

-Bidah
“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”  The Doctor

CLP

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 03:41:07 PM »
Erik,

  Glad you're on the board.  I liked all 4 videos.  Yesterday I got some trigger time (68, sunny w/slight breeze) and installed a Eotech on my M&P 15.  After zero I tried your methods.  A lot different than 60's Army training with a M14.  I liked the standing position where the stock is close to face and high on the shoulder.
  I hope the videos keep coming.

Pathfinder

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 06:27:39 PM »
Wow! Talk about being thrown into the fire right out the gate!

Well, heck, if your friends and disciples can't make your life hot, who can???

 ;D
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do this to others and I require the same from them"

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #15 on: Today at 05:14:15 AM »

JohnJacobH

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2007, 08:16:50 PM »
Wow! Talk about being thrown into the fire right out the gate!

It looks as though this topic has pretty well run its course and I would echo the advise given by Pathfinder as avoiding this predicament is your best option, but I will touch upon two aspects related more to selection of a rifle for this particular situation.

  Most LE would shoot on the sight of an AK simply because of what it represents.  The second you started cranking rounds into the air to disperse the crowd, you'd have rounds in the air coming your way.

I would strongly consider some other platform that does not convey immediate bad guy status.

Second, penetration and retention issues.  Proper load selection, even with an AK will help with penetration issues, but the fact remains that mobs are by their very nature defined by large masses of people in a very tight group or confined space. 

Retention concerns?  I wouldn't be concerned with it.  You can defeat one or two subjects trying to disarm you if your skilled at CQB retention technques, but not 5, 10, 20, or 30 etc., you get my point.  I

Many thanks for the thoughtful and proportionate response.  I had not considered the public relations aspect of AK 47's.

For personal reasons I am slow to join the platform weapon party.

 I still believe that if it absolutely, positively must go bang, a bolt action or levergun will have fewer moving parts to break or be unrepairable.  AND they do have a much better Public Relations quotient.

The only auto loader action that has me excited is the Benelli Inertial Bolt Setup and other than to  handle one a few times I have yet to wring any out in the field.

If we ever restore the Constitution to Government  in this country I believe a Benelli Inertial Bolt in a coach shotgun configuration (say 22 inches overall length?) with a box, banana or drum magazine would be the ultimate riot control weapon. You could even
topload beanbags for the first few warning rounds.


Apologies if I threw a hard curve on the first pitch.



Best regards,


2HOW

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Re: Checking in
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2007, 12:16:05 PM »
Thanks for joining Eric, your rifle vids are good stuff, I have to add a few of your tips to by bag. Personally in a crowd situation if I have to brandish a rifle, Im bringing my big mean ugly AK , with all the goodies. And do just enough to get out of the AO. I think I would prefer to stay in the car and drive out. But Not being there is the key.
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