The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: ericire12 on July 20, 2009, 10:25:46 AM
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http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/an-open-letter-to-all-montana-ffl/
An Open Letter To All Montana Federal Firearms Licenses
U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Assistant Director
Montana - -(AmmoLand.com)- The purpose of this letter is to provide guidance on your obligations as a Federal firearms licensee (FFL). The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is dedicated to your success in meeting requirements as a Federal Firearms licensee.
The passage of the Montana Firearms Freedom Act, House Bill 246 (Act), effective, October 1, 2009, has generated questions from industry members as to how this State law may affect them while engaged in firearms business activity. The Act purports to exempt personal firearms, firearms accessories and ammunition manufactured in the State, from most Federal Firearms laws and regulations. However, because the Act conflicts with Federal firearms laws and regulations, Federal law supercedes the Act, and all provisions of the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act, and their corresponding regulations, continue to apply.
As you may know, Federal law requires a license to engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition, or to deal in firearms, even if the firearms or ammunition remain in the state. All firearms manufactured by a licensee must be properly marked. Additionally, each licensee must record the type, model, caliber or gauge and serial number of each firearm manufactured or otherwise, and the date such manufacture or other acquistion was made. Firearms transaction records and NICS background checks must be conducted prior to disposition of firearms to unlicensed persons. These, as well as other Federal requirements and prohibitions, apply whether or not the firearms or ammunitions have crossed state lines.
If you have any questions regarding the Federal firearms laws and regulations, please contact your local ATF office. ATF works closely with the firearms industry and appreciates the important role the industry plays in combating violent crime. A listing of phone numbers can be found at : http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm
It is signed by Carson W. Carroll Assistant Director (Enforcement Programs and Services)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/071709-montana-openletter.pdf
More here:
http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/07/18/the-battle-begins-atf-vs-the-constitution/
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Section 8
Clause 1:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Clause 2:
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
Clause 3:
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Clause 4:
To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
Clause 5:
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
Clause 6:
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
Clause 7:
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
Clause 8:
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
Clause 9:
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
Clause 10:
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
Clause 11:
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
Clause 12:
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
Clause 13:
To provide and maintain a Navy;
Clause 14:
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
Clause 15:
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
Clause 16:
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Clause 17:
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
http://www.law.emory.edu/law-library/research/ready-reference/us-federal-law-and-documents/historical-documents-constitution-of-the-united-states/article-i-the-legislative-branch.html#c7642
Clause 18:
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
You see anything in that that says the ATF has any authority over ANYTHING ?
FU#K ATF,
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"Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a store, not an agency."
-Unknown
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the only problem is that most firearm sales from manufactures to dealers are out of state transactions, so the ATF can claim they are just regulating between the state commerce. Also if you want a "Federal" license you have to jump through their hoops. If everything you do stays in the state you are fine.
So what you do is have one dealer be federally licensed. He purchases the inventory and then sells it to an "in state" only dealer that sells to residents only. Thus the federal law was followed to get the guns into the state and then once there it is a state matter and the feds can stay out. Then if the ATF has a problem call up some Montana state resevests under control of the govenor to protect the dealers from wrongful search and seasure.
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This was expected, and the state is prepared.
-Bidah
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This was expected, and the state is prepared.
-Bidah
Yes, figured they expected it, but the ATF is still an unconstitutional agency.
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"Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a store, not an agency."
-Unknown
I always liked that one - well spoken by whomever said it first!!!!!
Hopefully this is the start of a states rights versus federal rights movement - sadly overdue. Unfortunately I am in Florida & here there is no such luck. We have a governor that begs for BHo's 'stimulus' (but not as bad as CA!!), but is quitting to run for Senate (I'll make sure he looses or try my best!) - another RINO for sure. We do have fairly liberal gun laws though thanks to Jeb Bush et al. Maybe the tide is starting to turn?
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I always liked that one - well spoken by whomever said it first!!!!!
Hopefully this is the start of a states rights versus federal rights movement - sadly overdue. Unfortunately I am in Florida & here there is no such luck. We have a governor that begs for BHo's 'stimulus' (but not as bad as CA!!), but is quitting to run for Senate (I'll make sure he looses or try my best!) - another RINO for sure. We do have fairly liberal gun laws though thanks to Jeb Bush et al. Maybe the tide is starting to turn?
NH's Senate is full of a bunch of socialists that support Gay Marriage and legal pot but ruled the 10th Amendment bill "inexpedient" because they wanted their cut of the pie from the post turtle in chief.
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The "sticker" is the FFL's, They are not Montana Firearms License's, they are Fed. Soooooooo, the ATF can stick it's big Fed nose is there, as it pertains to the FFL's.
They have the FFL's in Montana over a pickle barrel;, lose/ forfeit the FFL, and you can't conduct interstate business, anywhere except Montana, and there would would be some ATF folks that would come knocking if you did for the "other" Federal Firearm Laws.
I doubt the FFL dealers in Montana would forfeit the license's they worked so hard to get.
The other option is to secede, but that is a big can o' worms all its own.
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The "sticker" is the FFL's, They are not Montana Firearms License's, they are Fed. Soooooooo, the ATF can stick it's big Fed nose is there, as it pertains to the FFL's.
They have the FFL's in Montana over a pickle barrel;, lose/ forfeit the FFL, and you can't conduct interstate business, anywhere except Montana, and there would would be some ATF folks that would come knocking if you did for the "other" Federal Firearm Laws.
I doubt the FFL dealers in Montana would forfeit the license's they worked so hard to get.
The other option is to secede, but that is a big can o' worms all its own.
You can buy dope in any school yard in America, but Gun Dealers can't get around these socialist bastards ?
The way the Irish won Independence for the Republic in 1921 was through a campaign of "NON COMPLIANCE", The British had their colonial administration set up and their taxes, and laws on everything. But the people following the leadership of Sinn Fein ignored them, they said "stuff your laws" and they evaded the taxes and they jumped the tax collectors and beat the crap out them,and they shot at the troops and cops trying to enforce the British laws. They set their own laws and collected their own taxes. Any body who didn't go along was ostracized, any one who ratted was ostracized. That means the whole family became invisible, they go into a store to buy bread, they'd starve to death and rot before they got service, same thing in the pub, they go to church they got no Communion, they or a relative died, they might be buried in a church yard, but it wouldn't be any where where any one knew who they were, and if some one found out after they might get dug up and dumped in a ditch.
Eventually it got to the point where it was cheaper for England to just give them what they wanted and be done with it, they kept having to spend more and more money on Troops, Cops and snitches and they weren't getting much back to pay for it (not that many Protestant Loyalists outside of Ulster)
Thats the kind of thing we have to do to start. Set up our own Continental Congress and to hell with those assholes in Washington.
There are less than 12 cities that if you blockaded them till the food ran out would roll over, renounce the Socialist regime and totally cripple the elitist system.
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Why Tom, you sound like southerner in 1861, who told the North and Politicians up there to "get stuffed" when it involved the Feds interfering and trampling states rights.
Very similar tones for the Irish in 1921, but that violence and bloodshed lasted until recent years.
I take back all the times I called you a Yankee.. ;)
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Why Tom, you sound like southerner in 1861, who told the North and Politicians up there to "get stuffed" when it involved the Feds interfering and trampling states rights.
Very similar tones for the Irish in 1921, but that violence and bloodshed lasted until recent years.
I take back all the times I called you a Yankee.. ;)
The First one started up here remember. ;D
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The First one started up here remember. ;D
That is absolutely a BULLSEYE!
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Most "Nawtheners" don't mind a bit being called "Yankee"!
Unless your referring to the team of the same name in the city that never sleeps, cleans up after itself, bursting at the seems with illegals and shitheaps of human asshattery and steals all or most of it's fresh water from the rest of the hardworking Americans residing there.
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An Open Letter To All Montana Federal Firearms Licenses
U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Assistant Director
Montana - -(AmmoLand.com)- The purpose of this letter is to provide guidance on your obligations as a Federal firearms licensee (FFL). The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is dedicated to your success in meeting requirements as a Federal Firearms licensee.
The passage of the Montana Firearms Freedom Act, House Bill 246 (Act), effective, October 1, 2009, has generated questions from industry members as to how this State law may affect them while engaged in firearms business activity. The Act purports to exempt personal firearms, firearms accessories and ammunition manufactured in the State, from most Federal Firearms laws and regulations. However, because the Act conflicts with Federal firearms laws and regulations, Federal law supercedes the Act, and all provisions of the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act, and their corresponding regulations, continue to apply.
As you may know, Federal law requires a license to engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition, or to deal in firearms, even if the firearms or ammunition remain in the state. All firearms manufactured by a licensee must be properly marked. Additionally, each licensee must record the type, model, caliber or gauge and serial number of each firearm manufactured or otherwise, and the date such manufacture or other acquistion was made. Firearms transaction records and NICS background checks must be conducted prior to disposition of firearms to unlicensed persons. These, as well as other Federal requirements and prohibitions, apply whether or not the firearms or ammunitions have crossed state lines.
If you have any questions regarding the Federal firearms laws and regulations, please contact your local ATF office. ATF works closely with the firearms industry and appreciates the important role the industry plays in combating violent crime. A listing of phone numbers can be found at : http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm
It is signed by Carson W. Carroll Assistant Director (Enforcement Programs and Services)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/071709-montana-openletter.pdf
BULLSHIT
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The whole point of the law is that you don't need an FFL, so this will be tested by some brave soul, probably without an FFL, who makes a gun in MT, then sells it to another resident of MT.
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Most "Nawtheners" don't mind a bit being called "Yankee"!
Unless your referring to the team of the same name in the city that never sleeps, cleans up after itself, bursting at the seems with illegals and shitheaps of human asshattery and steals all or most of it's fresh water from the rest of the hardworking Americans residing there.
Them Yankees can go to hell. I don't care if the Red Sox finish in next to last place, just as long as they are ahead of them Damn Yankees.
Other wise, No, REAL Yankees don't mind it any more than Southerners mind "Redneck".
There don't seem to be many of us Natives left though, we're over run with Masshole liberals and New Yorkers.
Before the Revolution NH was pretty much at war with NY over "the Grants" ( Vermont now) Might happen again.
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I always liked that one - well spoken by whomever said it first!!!!!
Hopefully this is the start of a states rights versus federal rights movement - sadly overdue. Unfortunately I am in Florida & here there is no such luck. We have a governor that begs for BHo's 'stimulus' (but not as bad as CA!!), but is quitting to run for Senate (I'll make sure he looses or try my best!) - another RINO for sure. We do have fairly liberal gun laws though thanks to Jeb Bush et al. Maybe the tide is starting to turn?
+1
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I am glad to see it done, and I admire the courage that Montana has shown by "standing up" to the Feds. I just hope they have the fortitude and a really good plan to see this through, or the feds will once again push an individual, group, or state around that disagrees with the feds "proclamation".
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I am glad to see it done, and I admire the courage that Montana has shown by "standing up" to the Feds. I just hope they have the fortitude and a really good plan to see this through, or the feds will once again push an individual, group, or state around that disagrees with the feds "proclamation".
Could be...another Ruby Ridge or Waco. You know, the fact the marshalls shot the guy's dogs bothered me but I can deal with that...the fact that the marshalls killed the dogs and didn't announce who they were and pointed the guns as Weaver's son and friend...it bothered me bad...I can dismiss the fact that the kid and/or friend raised their weapons at the marshalls because the marshalls jumped from behind cover, blew the dogs away and ponted their guns at the kid and friend without identification, but the fact that Weaver's young son had his arm shot off, hanging/dangling by some meat, running home screaming for his Daddy and was shot in the back to finish him off...it's the kind of thing dissenters will have to realize they may well be facing to go against their public servants.
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States Rights were lost before 1861 and that issue was settled in 1865, the federal government rules the subservient states and its people. When the states have the ability to enforce their sovereignty they will be able to make laws the federal government doesn't agree with.
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States Rights were lost before 1861 and that issue was settled in 1865, the federal government rules the subservient states and its people. When the states have the ability to enforce their sovereignty they will be able to make laws the federal government doesn't agree with.
Even if federal law DOES supersede state law, the Constitution says the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Far more ambiguous language in other amendments has been used to justify everything from abortion to Flag burning. It is still the FEDERAL Govt. that is not in compliance with the law.
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Unfortunately what will happen is 1st blood in my opinion and the states response, now that some of our states have given notice, then if the fed responds in attacks, then it is up to the state to ARREST them, PROSECUTE, AND IMPRISON THEM. That is the real notice. The feds don't have enough to even come close to our local LE's and prosecuters, but WE all know we have to get on the same page as a state. National guard is the arm of the Governor, but can be controlled by the fed if the Governor allows, if otherwise then the posse comitatus applies, and it's anybodies bet how that will go, if it is local troops, then probably ok, but if out of state troops, who knows, but there are a lot of veterans from Iraq, and the middle east who are now home that I personally will count on. Don't want it, but if it happens then WE MUST FIGHT BACK. It is our state after all.
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Unfortunately what will happen is 1st blood in my opinion and the states response, now that some of our states have given notice, then if the fed responds in attacks, then it is up to the state to ARREST them, PROSECUTE, AND IMPRISON THEM. That is the real notice. The feds don't have enough to even come close to our local LE's and prosecuters, but WE all know we have to get on the same page as a state. National guard is the arm of the Governor, but can be controlled by the fed if the Governor allows, if otherwise then the posse comitatus applies, and it's anybodies bet how that will go, if it is local troops, then probably ok, but if out of state troops, who knows, but there are a lot of veterans from Iraq, and the middle east who are now home that I personally will count on. Don't want it, but if it happens then WE MUST FIGHT BACK. It is our state after all.
Don't put to much faith in Posse Comitatus, it has been severely modified and weakened over the last 30 years. First to allow military participation in the "War on Drugs" later in response to 9-11.
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UPDATE: They told Tenn too:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104674