The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: blackwolfe on July 29, 2009, 12:38:10 AM
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Many of us have heard MB talk about his secret hidden bunker and the new one his is going to build. If you had the means and opportuinty where would you call home?
I've always thought I'd love a place in the country or "The Big North Woods". Either in Northern Michigan or MI upper pinnsula. I also like the wide open spaces in the midwest to the west from the southern border to the northern border. Regardless of where, it would be nice to be on the water surrounded by more wildlife than people. Of course there would have to be a personal range and enough land for a garden, fruit and nut trees, and some livestock. A place where you can shoot off the back porch, pee off the front, and make love on the dock. Sounds like heaven to me.
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The UP in Michigan, upstate NY, the Poconos, the Rockies, Coeur D'Alene, Idaho, the Ozarks in Arkansas, the Carolinas, or maybe a little tropical island in the South Pacific. So many choices.
Next year we plan on taking a motorcoach around the country to make that very decision, and we have already selected a shelter manufacturer.
http://www.hardenedstructures.com/2050727/default.aspx
Of course all the following of your listed requirements are a must: Regardless of where, it would be nice to be on the water surrounded by more wildlife than people. Of course there would have to be a personal range and enough land for a garden and a few fruit trees. A place where you can shoot of the back porch, pee off the front, and make love on the dock. Sounds like heaven to me.
We have feelers out for a private lake, minimum of 20 acres, and at least 40 acres of land. We need 2 houses. One for my family and one for my Brother-in-Law (should just read Brother) and esteemed business partner. You may have met Johnny Bravo on the forum.
I do need to add that we would build with solar, wind and battery storage or we would add it to any existing structure that we purchase. We have discussed the fact that the money put into living off the energy grid would never be recouped, at todays prices, not even if we are able to sell excess power back to the energy company. We believe that the expense is justified by the independence and the security that are provided. The shelter will be installed discretely and the entrance will be from within our home.
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awhile back I bought some land out side of bend... plenty of places here in CA i would love, but all are $$$$
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I want me one of them missile silo conversions. ;D
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I want me one of them missile silo conversions. ;D
a client of mine has a tree house. its 3500 sqft, 5 bed 4 bath, was about 1 mill to build. its about 15 mins away from me.
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I've thought about becoming the next El Presidente for life of Cuba ;D, but with the moves toward sovereinghty (ugh) that Texas, Montana, and Nebraska has been taking I'm thinking one of those three are looking pretty attractive.
I've thought about getting some land out towards the North Dakota Badlands.
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The key here is sustainability.As Clint said "A man has to know his limitations". Some of us can do the pioneer farmer self sufficiency thing. Some can't. Know which category you fall into before you buy. Also calculate how close to a highway, you are.Will you be able to get there, and how about the zillion folks who think your place looks pretty good as well?. Its a hard call. Me, I'm in So. Fl. with an ex, but still a good friend with a '36 foot sail boat, and its stocked and ready, and we'll sail where we need to. Don't think a place in the country will save you if you can't get there first, defend it, and make it work. Just my .02.
FQ13
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The key here is sustainability.As Clint said "A man has to know his limitations". Some of us can do the pioneer farmer self sufficiency thing. Some can't. Know which category you fall into before you buy. Also calculate how close to a highway, you are.Will you be able to get there, and how about the zillion folks who think your place looks pretty good as well?. Its a hard call. Me, I'm in So. Fl. with an ex, but still a good friend with a '36 foot sail boat, and its stocked and ready, and we'll sail where we need to. Don't think a place in the country will save you if you can't get there first, defend it, and make it work. Just my .02.
FQ13
That's what I had in mind with the badlands.
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I would pick the hills overlooking the Connecticut River in western NH. Like the link Kid put up.
Good size Garden, Veggies, herbs, Apple trees Walnut trees and Maple trees GOT TO have a shop and some sort of renewable energy source, wind, Solar or water turbine, even consider a methane generator.
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I always wanted property in the Texas Hill Country west of Austin. Prefer 100+ acres with flowing water. House made of ICF block with geothermal and water wells...solar panels, and 1 wind turbine. I want to avoid getting power from a company through wires. And in case of emergency a SCUPP from radius engineering.
My shelter would be a radius engineering shelter with the vault door in the basement, and another ground level exit at teh other end.
http://www.bomb-shelter.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=71
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Cool site
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4769.0
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Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
+10 Kid
This city would be a perfect spot. Water, wildlife and cover. Plenty of space and good soil for gardens. Haven't been there since 1991 but I will not forget how spectacular it was.
Western Montana, ie the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Missoula and Helena would also be nice. Plenty of area to fish and wildlife is bountiful.
Kid, thanks for the link to the Bomb/Weather proof homes. Just gave me some great ideas.
I do like the circular structures like the one built in Greensburg, Kansas.
A copy of "Country Wisdom and Know-How Everything you need to know to live off the Land" would accompany me. If you guys and gals have a chance to go to a Hastings, Waldenbooks, etc, take a glance at this book if you have extra time. Tons of great info in that book.
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"Country Wisdom and Know-How Everything you need to know to live off the Land"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqyAa0Eg9YU ;)
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Thanks Shooter 32. Have not heard that song in probably 22 years. Sad, but I finally listened to the lyrics and it really hits home. Not in to Country Music but always had respect for Hank Williams, Jr. Also appreciated Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash.
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Already there. :)
Depending on your circumstances, making your current home into a place to bug in with a bunker might be more plausible. Yes it is nice to be so far out in the sticks that you are off the map, but what if you need to work, or even barter for that matter.
-Bidah
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Already there. :)
Depending on your circumstances, making your current home into a place to bug in with a bunker might be more plausible. Yes it is nice to be so far out in the sticks that you are off the map, but what if you need to work, or even barter for that matter.
-Bidah
That's exactly why I live in town, the best places to live have no jobs to support yourself.
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That's exactly why I live in town, the best places to live have no jobs to support yourself.
Yup. The trouble with living in paradise is that everyone else has discovered it. Evac routes will be jammed, and "the sticks" won't be the sticks, when the cities empty. I have what I need for 30 days. After that, I improvise.
FQ13
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You need water and a way to grow your own food. Everything else, as they say, is commentary.
I'm thinking someplace a little warmer in the winter, with longer growing seasons than ND.
There are multiple threads on multiple sites (like the preparedness podcast or survival podcast fora) re' BOLs, BILs, and the BOVs necessary to get to your BOL with your BOB. ;D
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I would pick the hills overlooking the Connecticut River in western NH. Like the link Kid put up.
Good size Garden, Veggies, herbs, Apple trees Walnut trees and Maple trees GOT TO have a shop and some sort of renewable energy source, wind, Solar or water turbine, even consider a methane generator.
With all the BS on this site there would be no problem with a fuel source.
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I've run through the "doomsday scenario thing" in my head a few times myself and have questions... :-\
You buy a shelter. Be it a standard cabin out in the woods with solar panels / wind mill, or underground steel and concrete re-enforced armored bunker, do you have so much as even a two track road leading to it? Yes? Then people will find it! You will be killed by looters.
I know, I know, everybody's thinking. "NOT ME! I'VE GOT GUNS AND AMMO FALLING OUT MY REAR!" Won't matter. If you ever leave that shelter you will be killed.
Gotta dump your waste? Gotta hunt food, fish, or tend crops? Gotta check on why your power source isnt working (solar panels, windmill, whatever. Yes, I shot it)? How long can you hold out without opening the hatch? Open the hatch = you will be killed.
Everybody take a deep breath and cool off. I've proposed this scenario to MANY, MANY people, and have only gotten a legit solution once, after hours of discussion, but lets run through some idea's we can all learn from. People get hot QUICK when you shoot down their "fool proof plans", so everybody please dont get bent out of shape, lets just learn.
NOW. Lets suppose I can aford a very fine high powered rifle. But NOT a very fine shelter or supplies. Quite a differance in cost here! I like any person want to survive, so what do I do when things are very bad looking for me?
While specific location makes NO differance, lets say I drive up north (I lived in MI for 14 years and just moved 2 weeks ago, so I know the U.P., & Northern lower peninsula well!), I look for remote, long two track roads and drive down them for a quick investigation much like MANY, MANY others looking for food / help will. I find at the end of this road a cabin, shelter, man hole and vents for an underground shelter, whatever the situation may be, and drive away. Park my car blocking the road (dont really care what happens to it at this point), put on my ghilli suit, camo up, and stalk my way back to a good shooting position as far away from my target (your door, manhole, access point) as I can position myself with a clear shot with my sniper rifle. I have enough supplies to last a week or two, and simply wait you out... Up pops a head, and boom. I wait two more days before aproaching my new found treasure. If others should pop up. Same result. Your family WILL burst out of the shelter into open fire having seen you shot down. Its called panic. But again, I wait two days to be sure.
I stock up on your goodies and leave. Walk a FEW miles, and find my next target.
I know its ugly. But you REALLY believe MANY people wont be doing this!?!?!?! What's to stop me from years of this living this way??? There ARE answers.
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Go for the ECA 70-132. Plenty of room for an indoor rifle range.
;D
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A few other things to consider with the scenario above. What if I've brought friends? And you DONT want to blockade your road! That would be the equivelent to putting up a sign that said. "LOTS OF FOOD AND GOODIES HERE!"
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When I started this thread I used the term "bunker" lightly as I was thinking more along the terms of where you would like to live, what type of home, and surroundings. I like the idea of a well built home, not neccessilary hardened for a zombie attack, and the idea of as much self suficiency as practical or possible. I do and have had relatives that have farmed in NW Kansas and NE Colorado. When the family farmstead was started in the early 1900's it was pretty much self sufficent. Windmill for water pumping and the early wind generators for power. Not sure what they used for heat, but now it is propane. The country side was not wired for quite sometime. At times they are still pretty much on their own as far as power goes as both blizzards and thunderstorms with or without tornados can leave them on their own for extended periods. If a SHTF event does happen none of us may be safe, but I figure the further you are away from population centers and the more you can rely on yourself the better.
After saying all this I still want a place where I can pee off the front porch, shoot off the back porch and not be bothered with neighbors getting bent out of shape when I do it. I'll let the dog feret out and alert me to the sniper in the ghili suit.
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I've run through the "doomsday scenario thing" in my head a few times myself and have questions... :-\
You buy a shelter. Be it a standard cabin out in the woods with solar panels / wind mill, or underground steel and concrete re-enforced armored bunker, do you have so much as even a two track road leading to it? Yes? Then people will find it! You will be killed by looters.
I know, I know, everybody's thinking. "NOT ME! I'VE GOT GUNS AND AMMO FALLING OUT MY REAR!" Won't matter. If you ever leave that shelter you will be killed.
Gotta dump your waste? Gotta hunt food, fish, or tend crops? Gotta check on why your power source isnt working (solar panels, windmill, whatever. Yes, I shot it)? How long can you hold out without opening the hatch? Open the hatch = you will be killed.
Everybody take a deep breath and cool off. I've proposed this scenario to MANY, MANY people, and have only gotten a legit solution once, after hours of discussion, but lets run through some idea's we can all learn from. People get hot QUICK when you shoot down their "fool proof plans", so everybody please dont get bent out of shape, lets just learn.
NOW. Lets suppose I can aford a very fine high powered rifle. But NOT a very fine shelter or supplies. Quite a differance in cost here! I like any person want to survive, so what do I do when things are very bad looking for me?
While specific location makes NO differance, lets say I drive up north (I lived in MI for 14 years and just moved 2 weeks ago, so I know the U.P., & Northern lower peninsula well!), I look for remote, long two track roads and drive down them for a quick investigation much like MANY, MANY others looking for food / help will. I find at the end of this road a cabin, shelter, man hole and vents for an underground shelter, whatever the situation may be, and drive away. Park my car blocking the road (dont really care what happens to it at this point), put on my ghilli suit, camo up, and stalk my way back to a good shooting position as far away from my target (your door, manhole, access point) as I can position myself with a clear shot with my sniper rifle. I have enough supplies to last a week or two, and simply wait you out... Up pops a head, and boom. I wait two more days before aproaching my new found treasure. If others should pop up. Same result. Your family WILL burst out of the shelter into open fire having seen you shot down. Its called panic. But again, I wait two days to be sure.
I stock up on your goodies and leave. Walk a FEW miles, and find my next target.
I know its ugly. But you REALLY believe MANY people wont be doing this!?!?!?! What's to stop me from years of this living this way??? There ARE answers.
Yup, them damn looters have nothing better to do than wait around without supplies in the middle of no where while the folks in the cities swipe all the good shit, just to rob one isolated armed guy. It amazes me none of us were smart enough to catch that, You Da man BM.
However, I happened to notice that those shelters can accommodate up to 120 people. Hmmmm ::) (_?_)
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my mother just put her house up for sale in Nova Scotia. (that's Canada, eh) for a reasonable price. can't see any neighbors, has a basement, barnhouse garage with furnished loft, (for the in-laws) on a beautiful lake. and the best part? they don't speak french there! plenty of wildlife too. the down side? socialized medicine and it isn't USA. they left because of the medicine, my stepfather is in his eighties and getting frail. had to travel to Maine to get any medical care that's worth a damn. so now they live in New Mex.
I think the place would be perfect if I had the money for it. oh well.
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The Canuks are very anti gun. Limits amount of ammo you can have. While it is very pretty, not worth the hassle. The strippers are great though.
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I know its ugly. But you REALLY believe MANY people wont be doing this!?!?!?! What's to stop me from years of this living this way??? There ARE answers.
Not a lot of people will find it. Most people will starve before then...average food on the shelf is two weeks or less. The cities start to empty to the country...no or little food, malnourished and dying...I don't think they will get as far and in as good health as you give them credit for. Many/most would have died from drinking the bad water...if it's this bad...there won't be water or sanitation sources. The starving city dwellers will easily outnumber and zero out a few Mad Max's among them that look healthy and have food...it won't be like Hollywood. People outside the suburbs with food and supplies will be healthy and in good shape relative to the zombies out looking for a snack moving from home to home...that's gonna be high risk for them...their mortality rate will be very high, not more than a few will make it past 3 or 4 homes in the county and huge overwhelming coherent numbers of zombies will not exist as Hollywood sometimes portrays.
I won't be worried about them walking up to the house...they have to get there first and I don't have to be there to stop them. All hail the mighty Mad Max...up to the point where that mindless, emotionless, snare zeroes out his butt. They'll have to shoot the dogs if they get closer than that....
You don't really think the people in the country are going to be stupid enough to let you drive right up and take their goodies,eh? Won't be long the bridges and choke points will be blocked.....dream on with waltzing through the outdoor goodie store and taking what you want. Those that have will protect it and they won't be waiting at home with a big stupid smile painted on their faces waiting for someone big and strong and smart like you to kick their door down and snipe them in their fields. You won't make it past the first roadblock with that attitude, like your plans and person are going to be invisible for you to set up the perfect scenario....
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SaltyDog said
The strippers are great though.
I will always have a soft spot in my heart and a empty wallet for Windsor! ;D
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I've run through the "doomsday scenario thing" in my head a few times myself and have questions... :-\
You buy a shelter. Be it a standard cabin out in the woods with solar panels / wind mill, or underground steel and concrete re-enforced armored bunker, do you have so much as even a two track road leading to it? Yes? Then people will find it! You will be killed by looters.
I know, I know, everybody's thinking. "NOT ME! I'VE GOT GUNS AND AMMO FALLING OUT MY REAR!" Won't matter. If you ever leave that shelter you will be killed.
Gotta dump your waste? Gotta hunt food, fish, or tend crops? Gotta check on why your power source isnt working (solar panels, windmill, whatever. Yes, I shot it)? How long can you hold out without opening the hatch? Open the hatch = you will be killed.
Everybody take a deep breath and cool off. I've proposed this scenario to MANY, MANY people, and have only gotten a legit solution once, after hours of discussion, but lets run through some idea's we can all learn from. People get hot QUICK when you shoot down their "fool proof plans", so everybody please dont get bent out of shape, lets just learn.
NOW. Lets suppose I can aford a very fine high powered rifle. But NOT a very fine shelter or supplies. Quite a differance in cost here! I like any person want to survive, so what do I do when things are very bad looking for me?
While specific location makes NO differance, lets say I drive up north (I lived in MI for 14 years and just moved 2 weeks ago, so I know the U.P., & Northern lower peninsula well!), I look for remote, long two track roads and drive down them for a quick investigation much like MANY, MANY others looking for food / help will. I find at the end of this road a cabin, shelter, man hole and vents for an underground shelter, whatever the situation may be, and drive away. Park my car blocking the road (dont really care what happens to it at this point), put on my ghilli suit, camo up, and stalk my way back to a good shooting position as far away from my target (your door, manhole, access point) as I can position myself with a clear shot with my sniper rifle. I have enough supplies to last a week or two, and simply wait you out... Up pops a head, and boom. I wait two more days before aproaching my new found treasure. If others should pop up. Same result. Your family WILL burst out of the shelter into open fire having seen you shot down. Its called panic. But again, I wait two days to be sure.
I stock up on your goodies and leave. Walk a FEW miles, and find my next target.
I know its ugly. But you REALLY believe MANY people wont be doing this!?!?!?! What's to stop me from years of this living this way??? There ARE answers.
You are forgetting one of the basics of survival in a post SHTF scenario. Do you really think that I would be stupid enough to just jump into a bunker/cabin/hole in the ground, by myself with no way of being aware of my surroundings? You don't go into the sticks alone. You post security. 24/7 And when you see some badger in a ghillie suit, you knee cap him and siphon his gas tank.
That ought to run the generator for another couple of days. ;D
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My personal purposes for a shelter and for living off of the energy grid are different that the scenarios that Badger lists. I am not trying to prepare for Armageddon.
I like the independence and self reliance of living off the grid. I will enjoy the fresh fruit and vegetables that we grow (we will also have a small greenhouse). I prefer the idea of having a shelter for storm protection. The shelter may come in handy in a SHTF scenario, but I continue to believe, hope and pray that the use, for that type of situation, would never become necessary.
As demonstrated in this years Best Defense Survival, a little preparation can go a long way.
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Yup, them damn looters have nothing better to do than wait around without supplies in the middle of no where while the folks in the cities swipe all the good shit, just to rob one isolated armed guy. It amazes me none of us were smart enough to catch that, You Da man BM.
However, I happened to notice that those shelters can accommodate up to 120 people. Hmmmm ::) (_?_)
Think continuum - day 1, day 2....day 30....day 90... and so on. Stores will be looted and then what? Then the crowds go around city/town looking for easy targets. Then what? A smart, enterprising BG figures out that peiople have fled the city and pickings are getting harder, so they head out of town. Then what? and so on...
That is why you need to be self-sufficient with food and out of sight as much as possible.
my mother just put her house up for sale in Nova Scotia. (that's Canada, eh) for a reasonable price. can't see any neighbors, has a basement, barnhouse garage with furnished loft, (for the in-laws) on a beautiful lake. and the best part? they don't speak french there! plenty of wildlife too. the down side? socialized medicine and it isn't USA. they left because of the medicine, my stepfather is in his eighties and getting frail. had to travel to Maine to get any medical care that's worth a damn. so now they live in New Mex.
I think the place would be perfect if I had the money for it. oh well.
Man, I love NS, have visited there from Portsmouth to Cape Breton. Fantastic music, nice people, but alas in Canada. And watch out for the Nor'easters.
Sounds like a nice place though, but getting there in a SHTF scenario would be a bitch. The 9-hour ferries probably won't be running and the drive is looooooong.
Me, I am looking more for a place to retire to (warm is good, hot is not, and humid is not desirable) and grow food. Money will be tight, but in the right place I can survive.
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my mother just put her house up for sale in Nova Scotia. (that's Canada, eh) for a reasonable price. can't see any neighbors, has a basement, barnhouse garage with furnished loft, (for the in-laws) on a beautiful lake. and the best part? they don't speak french there! plenty of wildlife too. the down side? socialized medicine and it isn't USA. they left because of the medicine, my stepfather is in his eighties and getting frail. had to travel to Maine to get any medical care that's worth a damn. so now they live in New Mex.
I think the place would be perfect if I had the money for it. oh well.
My Great Grandfather grew up in Beaver Harbor New Brunswick. If it wasn't for their anti gun laws I would have been back there decades ago, Fresh water lake and fields on one side ocean on the other.
Take the motor out of the tractor to run the Fishing boat, Woods right down to the ocean in many places and virgin beach combing.
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My wife and I are looking at some land about 20 min outside of town. 8-10 acres. Trees and river access. Pretty flat land, but we are hoping to find a spot that butts up against the mountain. Actually most of you have probably seen this area. If any of you have seen the John Wayne classic Hellfighters. They used this area as the stand in for Argentina? I believe. Actually very good farming area, and well protected from the weather. Far enough away from town to be fairly isolated. (shoot of back porch, pee off front) But close enough to be convenient.
I'm not so much concerned with isolation, as much as self sufficiency. Like most of you have touched on, after 2-3 months, the cities will be deserted. The only ones able to sustain any kind of life, will be those who can grow and shoot there own food, procure water, and shelter themselves without assistance.
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I stand by my Texas decision... if funds were of no concern...you know like i won the powerball tonight...i would by this piece of property
http://www.landsoftexas.com/texas/index.cfm?Detail=&INV_ID=232268
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I stand by my Texas decision... if funds were of no concern...you know like i won the powerball tonight...i would by this piece of property
http://www.landsoftexas.com/texas/index.cfm?Detail=&INV_ID=232268
Not if I get there first! That, in the hill country, is about as close to heaven as I am likely to get. ;D
FQ13 who will buy a powerball tonight :-\
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I stand by my Texas decision... if funds were of no concern...you know like i won the powerball tonight...i would by this piece of property
http://www.landsoftexas.com/texas/index.cfm?Detail=&INV_ID=232268
Pretty sweet patch of ground.
My wife's family has a 1200 acre ranch close to Fredericksburg. It is between Mason and Fredericksburg and it also has a river on their property. They have cattle and a healthy, managed, deer population as well as lots of turkey and other wildlife. I love the ranch and the Hill Country, but my wife says no way. She feels that it is way too dry most of the time.
Bummer, but as they say: "If momma ain't happy, no one is happy." ;D
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Nobody here's able to defend themselves against such a person? These people will be out there. I'm not talking about inner city dwellers, that will be condemed to death by gangs and rioting. I'm talking about suburbanites who were prepared for a month or two. Or the people already living in rural places who after a few weeks are running low on supplies. These people will be the ones making attacks on remote cabins. Along with some of the city gang idiots that make it that far / long. But, the gang idiots WILL be easy kills for a well guarded cabin.
I have to say. I'm as shocked as I am disapointed nobody here is able to defend against such an attack. :(
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Where is Green Mountain Gringo and Hawkfish?
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Nobody here's able to defend themselves against such a person? These people will be out there. I'm not talking about inner city dwellers, that will be condemed to death by gangs and rioting. I'm talking about suburbanites who were prepared for a month or two. Or the people already living in rural places who after a few weeks are running low on supplies. These people will be the ones making attacks on remote cabins. Along with some of the city gang idiots that make it that far / long. But, the gang idiots WILL be easy kills for a well guarded cabin.
I have to say. I'm as shocked as I am disapointed nobody here is able to defend against such an attack. :(
I hate to poke ANOTHER hole in your theory here, but you keep assuming that no one here would have the presence of mind to post security. Your plan only works under the assumption that you are a very small group, huddled in a bunker, with no security, and no situational awareness. Ad to that the fact that your "sniper" has to be able to make the stalk undetected, and make the shot. Anyone who puts a reasonable amount of thought into a retreat like that is going to have some sort of perimeter security, and will probably have many family/friends that reside there too. That's a lot of eyes to escape. Besides that, do you really think that you won't be detected when you just drive right up to the cabin?
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Where is Green Mountain Gringo and Hawkfish?
Gringo was on the forum on 07/26/09.
Hawkfish has been MIA since 04/29/09. :(
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Badgersmilk appears to be a fixated idiot.
For starters we are not talking about a "Retreat" that you visit on vacation and only move to in the event of a disaster, We are discussing SELF SUFFICIENT HOMES. The older people here who listened to the stories their parents and Grandparents told know that during the Great Depression the only rural people who suffered more than a lack of cash money were the ones wiped out by the "Dust bowl" which was a coincidentally timed but unrelated event, not likely to be repeated. Otherwise people in the country ate well, and got by on barter.
Another thing he overlooks, is that it is only "city people" who don't know the folks around them. As an example: I live in a 6 unit Apt. building, of the 10 people there I only know 2 of them by name and only talk to ANY of them if we meet in the door or hallway. I don't work with them, I don't meet any of them when going about my business, and we don't meet up at local events like the fireworks or parades. When I used to live in Maine however I was acquainted with every one for a couple of miles around because the smaller population led to more interaction, because there were fewer places to go there fore more likely hood of meeting the same people, limited job market and entertainment possibilities increased the likely hood that you had worked with a particular person or met them at the store or restaurant. The more widely spread the population the greater the likely hood they will band together for mutual benefit
Next, "putting up a gate says food and stuff here" That statement tells me you don't have much imagination. Or possibly you have never heard the term "preparing the battlespace" there are many ways that terrain and other natural features can be used to channelize traffic for control purposes. Think you're going to just "barrel up my driveway ? Easily home made spike strip will slow you down and the Maple and Walnut trees and drainage ditches will keep you from going around..them.
Personally I've put a lot of thought into "Dual use" landscaping.Since I'm not much interested in raising animals I see no need for Barbed wire, It's way to much work putting it up and it won't keep out what I want kept out. Blackberries, or Beach Roses are far more effective, less work, and a source of food and booze.
The absolute most important considerations for a home are sufficient fuel ( Cooking, heating,light, and transportation) water supplies, and adequate sanitation facilities.
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Badgersmilk appears to be a fixated idiot.
For starters we are not talking about a "Retreat" that you visit on vacation and only move to in the event of a disaster, We are discussing SELF SUFFICIENT HOMES. The older people here who listened to the stories their parents and Grandparents told know that during the Great Depression the only rural people who suffered more than a lack of cash money were the ones wiped out by the "Dust bowl" which was a coincidentally timed but unrelated event, not likely to be repeated. Otherwise people in the country ate well, and got by on barter.
Another thing he overlooks, is that it is only "city people" who don't know the folks around them. As an example: I live in a 6 unit Apt. building, of the 10 people there I only know 2 of them by name and only talk to ANY of them if we meet in the door or hallway. I don't work with them, I don't meet any of them when going about my business, and we don't meet up at local events like the fireworks or parades. When I used to live in Maine however I was acquainted with every one for a couple of miles around because the smaller population led to more interaction, because there were fewer places to go there fore more likely hood of meeting the same people, limited job market and entertainment possibilities increased the likely hood that you had worked with a particular person or met them at the store or restaurant. The more widely spread the population the greater the likely hood they will band together for mutual benefit
Next, "putting up a gate says food and stuff here" That statement tells me you don't have much imagination. Or possibly you have never heard the term "preparing the battlespace" there are many ways that terrain and other natural features can be used to channelize traffic for control purposes. Think you're going to just "barrel up my driveway ? Easily home made spike strip will slow you down and the Maple and Walnut trees and drainage ditches will keep you from going around..them.
Personally I've put a lot of thought into "Dual use" landscaping.Since I'm not much interested in raising animals I see no need for Barbed wire, It's way to much work putting it up and it won't keep out what I want kept out. Blackberries, or Beach Roses are far more effective, less work, and a source of food and booze.
The absolute most important considerations for a home are sufficient fuel ( Cooking, heating,light, and transportation) water supplies, and adequate sanitation facilities.
I hate to say this butTom is both one hundred percent right and as sad as I am. :-\ Th thing is, I live in a gated community (even though its nothing but but basic 3 bedroom suburban houses), with a home owner association. They are a bunch of Yankee busy bodies who want $1k per year to pay the bush trimming Guatemalans and pay Barney Fife at the gate. (Sorry, but I don't want the gate and am willing, and would prefer, to mow my own damn grass, but such is life in Fl.). The thing is that the very architecture works against knowing your neighbors. Every house (and they are built alike in a very Stepford way) has a protruding garage and no front porch. You come home, drive your car in and don't see your front yard. The back yards have tastefuly painted 6 foot walls between them. Good for privacy, but you can't tallk to your neighbor over the fence. The point is, its easy to not even know your next door neighbors name unless you put some effort into it. This makes it very hard to arrange for something like community protection (here I'm talking hurricane not zombie attack). It rally is kind of sad that we design our communities this way. Compare and cotrast to the old southern homes( middle class stuff, not mansions) where the front porch was the second living room. See how much closer neighbors were.
FQ13
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I hate to say this butTom is both one hundred percent right and as sad as I am. :-\ Th thing is, I live in a gated community (even though its nothing but but basic 3 bedroom suburban houses), with a home owner association. They are a bunch of Yankee busy bodies who want $1k per year to pay the bush trimming Guatemalans and pay Barney Fife at the gate. (Sorry, but I don't want the gate and am willing, and would prefer, to mow my own damn grass, but such is life in Fl.). The thing is that the very architecture works against knowing your neighbors. Every house (and they are built alike in a very Stepford way) has a protruding garage and no front porch. You come home, drive your car in and don't see your front yard. The back yards have tastefuly painted 6 foot walls between them. Good for privacy, but you can't tallk to your neighbor over the fence. The point is, its easy to not even know your next door neighbors name unless you put some effort into it. This makes it very hard to arrange for something like community protection (here I'm talking hurricane not zombie attack). It rally is kind of sad that we design our communities this way. Compare and cotrast to the old southern homes( middle class stuff, not mansions) where the front porch was the second living room. See how much closer neighbors were.
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I guess I'm lucky in one respect.......we know and like all our neighbors (closest are 1/4 mile away) and in our neck of the woods many neighbors, in the old southern tradition, still "visit" one another regularly to see how things are going..... or at least call.
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I hate to say this butTom is both one hundred percent right and as sad as I am. :-\ Th thing is, I live in a gated community (even though its nothing but but basic 3 bedroom suburban houses), with a home owner association. They are a bunch of Yankee busy bodies who want $1k per year to pay the bush trimming Guatemalans and pay Barney Fife at the gate. (Sorry, but I don't want the gate and am willing, and would prefer, to mow my own damn grass, but such is life in Fl.). The thing is that the very architecture works against knowing your neighbors. Every house (and they are built alike in a very Stepford way) has a protruding garage and no front porch. You come home, drive your car in and don't see your front yard. The back yards have tastefuly painted 6 foot walls between them. Good for privacy, but you can't tallk to your neighbor over the fence. The point is, its easy to not even know your next door neighbors name unless you put some effort into it. This makes it very hard to arrange for something like community protection (here I'm talking hurricane not zombie attack). It rally is kind of sad that we design our communities this way. Compare and cotrast to the old southern homes( middle class stuff, not mansions) where the front porch was the second living room. See how much closer neighbors were.
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Now that didn't hurt, did it ? ;D
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Barb wire is effective against the 2-legged critters if it is coiled rather than strung taut for 4-legged critters. At least it will tie them up or direct them where you want them - like in full view of the neighbor's 60" flat panel TV! Hopefully the BGs will have a short attention span. ;D
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Barb wire is effective against the 2-legged critters if it is coiled rather than strung taut for 4-legged critters. At least it will tie them up or direct them where you want them - like in full view of the neighbor's 60" flat panel TV! Hopefully the BGs will have a short attention span. ;D
Whoopie, you still can not make wine from it ;D
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Whoopie, you still can not make wine from it ;D
Wine no. A bong on the other hand....., wait we already did this thread. ;D
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Wine no. A bong on the other hand....., wait we already did this thread. ;D
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In the event of TEOTWAWKI hemp is a VERY sensible crop, buds (laws against pot being null and void ) would serve as a "cash crop"(as it already is in Ca. ) or trade goods, or a tobacco replacement, the seeds can be pressed for the oil content or used in animal feed, and the stems and roots can be broken down like flax for paper, clothe and rope.
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In the event of TEOTWAWKI hemp is a VERY sensible crop, buds (laws against pot being null and void ) would serve as a "cash crop"(as it already is in Ca. ) or trade goods, or a tobacco replacement, the seeds can be pressed for the oil content or used in animal feed, and the stems and roots can be broken down like flax for paper, clothe and rope.
Rope. What is it with you and rope? ;D
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Rope. What is it with you and rope? ;D
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Rope cures all kinds of ills - corrupt politicians, and some medical (or so they say) . . . .
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If nothing else, I could probably buy a small portion of land from the inlaws and build there. Its not a terrible location. But in the event of fallout, may be less desirable than western TX.
They live near Cuero,TX.
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Spike strips would surely stop a car... And be another GREAT indicator that "this is a house full of goodies. SHOP HERE!". Besides, now you've disabled my car, so you've forced me to start hunting for victims nearby. I'm now on foot and know you've got something your trying to protect. Bad choice to disable any possible attackers car!
Barbed wire wont stop anyone "stalking", even trip wires are easily detected when stalking. An unimposing gate or even heavy wire cable is likely best be for the driveway. Steel pipe is easily welded into a respectable, but unimposeing gate. Just dont overbuild drawing attention and making possible theives wonder. "What's he so worried about protecting?"
Get over the ego's, and think about it (tom). I'm not trying rain on anybodies parade. But isnt it a waste to have a "bunker" if the first dumb dumb with a rifle pops you in the head and takes it from you. If I put myself on the other side of this, I'd be the first one to invite somebody else to tell me what I could do to protect it and my life better... ::)
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Badger, how can someone get popped in the head when they're in a bunker?
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Badger, how can someone get popped in the head when they're in a bunker?
It can be done, but not by an asshat like him. Apparently he never saw a DIRT road. He's like Onrecess, when I see his posts I consider the source.
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Rope. What is it with you and rope? ;D
FQ13
Tom is a Marine, one that probably knows the value of a good knot!
Tom, what are the three (3) qualities of a GOOD KNOT?
test at 11:00.......
;)
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Maybe I should have titled this thread "Your dream home, where and what do you want it to be. I should have left bunker out of it. Sorry guys.
By the way I protect my dream home with gravel, claymores, and an Abrams. If all that fails I have a suitcase nuke so I won't be taken alive.
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Tom is a Marine, one that probably knows the value of a good knot!
Tom, what are the three (3) qualities of a GOOD KNOT?
test at 11:00.......
;)
Seeing how I'm the spawn of a Navy family, I was given many a good KNOT manual.
"It is extraordinary how little the average individual knows about the art of making even the simplest knots"
R.M Abraham,..Winter Night's Entertainments 1932..
Being in the marine industry, former commercial fisherman, and wannabe MacGyver, I always have a good knot.
Whippings, Zeppelins Bend, (no not the band),..carricks, bowline's, to a simple simon, to a simple hitch, and my favorite the Palomar,... knots have a purpose. Even for politicians.
I watched this thread go 5 pages,...TEOTWAWKI, has happened. Hurricanes, tornadoes, blizzards, anything that TOTALLY disrupts our "normal" lives, has happened, and we have seen the result.
What we choose to do makes us survivors or victims. I survived an ice storm in NC in 95 that left me sleeping with my dogs and pregnant wife by a fireplace for 6 days...(with my .357 also....), and many a hurricane...
Either way, there are those that will always be unprepared, and not have the ability to "cope" without electricity, cable TV, microwave,....
Some will overcome and adapt. My house will be my fortress, until deemed futile to remain. Most will never consider leaving "their stuff", others will.
Just an observation.
Bunkers, basements, reinforced windows and doors, all will work, until,....
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Tom is a Marine, one that probably knows the value of a good knot!
Tom, what are the three (3) qualities of a GOOD KNOT?
test at 11:00.......
;)
It doesn't come undone
It's easy to tie
If you wollop some one up side the head it lays them out like a club.
Actually, there are 4
Easy to tie
Easy to inspect
Performs it's function
Easy to untie ;D
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Tom, you dont have to have a tantrum. I asked a question, and because you didnt have an answer you blew up? A good level head like that'll get you far! Good luck. ::)
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Easy to tie, easy to untie and it won't slip.... ;D I'll give it to ya Pal!
Knowing a few good knots as TW states is a very valuable piece of knowledge for anyone!
Being an avid fisherman, knots are a something I don't even think about much whether it's TW's favorite Palomar (which I use every day fishing) or a Bimini Twist....ya just never know when your going to need it!
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or a Bimini Twist....ya just never know when your going to need it!
Love a Bimini Twist, when trolling ballyhoo with long leaders, Daisy Chains for the spread,........ I love looooooonnnnnggggg leaders, and prefer hand to hand getting them to the boat,.....
;D
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......... whether it's TW's favorite Palomar (which I use every day fishing) or a Bimini Twist....ya just never know when your going to need it!
Palomar and Bimini....ain't that some kind of foreign knot? What's wrong with early American Hatchet knots...ain't dem good enough for you?
;D
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Palomar and Bimini....ain't that some kind of foreign knot? What's wrong with early American Hatchet knots...ain't dem good enough for you?
;D
Now yer just bein' silly.......Oh! Wait! I forgot where I was.......
Carry On!
;D
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Now this is thread slip.
;)
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here is a thought along badgers line of thought. Typically, if someone is smart enough to do what he says, they would have been smart enough to prepare to begin with. Bad Guys in general are not intelligent ( this isnt the movies and Heinz Gruber's dont really exist ). The probability that the one intelligent, trained, equipped guy with bad intentions, stumbles across the 1 of 1,000 dirt roads and randomly decides it is different than all the others and has a ft knox of supplies at the other end is astronomical. You might as well believe that aliens may take you out of your bunker through your toilet vent pipe.
Additionally, in rural areas, the oddball dirt roads are the ones without gates and cattle guards. So a locked gate draws zero attention.
Although I do agree about booby trapping...if you booby trap, they trip it and survive, they know something is up. So make sure your traps are lethal, and those you care about know to avoid them.
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Now this is thread slip.
;)
;D
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OK Tim, What is the purpose of a "Sheepshank" ;D
As to BM, He apparently has never lived in the country, between watch dogs and just the natural activities of local animals and birds even if you are alone, and set out no other form of perimeter security, unless you are totally oblivious you will be able to tell if an intruder enters the area. This will lead to false alarms because what the animals react to is not always something that will be important to you, but they will react to more than concerns you not less.
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OK Tim, What is the purpose of a "Sheepshank" ;D
To shorten a length of rope and make it stronger......too easy!
I also have a Thomas Glover Pocket Ref on my desk! I did know the answer though!
;D
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OK Tim, What is the purpose of a "Sheepshank" ;D
As to BM, He apparently has never lived in the country, between watch dogs and just the natural activities of local animals and birds even if you are alone, and set out no other form of perimeter security, unless you are totally oblivious you will be able to tell if an intruder enters the area. This will lead to false alarms because what the animals react to is not always something that will be important to you, but they will react to more than concerns you not less.
True, but home invasions don't just happen the city and we all have to sleep. Personally, I don't worry so much as I am a bit of a fatalist. When it comes to this kind of stuff, I have a couple of plans and I intend to follow them. You do what you reasonably can, but sometimes, it doesn't work. There a lot of things outside your control and some guy in a ghillie suit 500 yards out who's camped in a sniper hide for a week qualifies in that category. If someone wants me that bad, odds are 99-1 I'm screwed.
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True, but home invasions don't just happen the city and we all have to sleep. Personally, I don't worry so much as I am a bit of a fatalist. When it comes to this kind of stuff, I have a couple of plans and I intend to follow them. You do what you reasonably can, but sometimes, it doesn't work. There a lot of things outside your control and some guy in a ghillie suit 500 yards out who's camped in a sniper hide for a week qualifies in that category. If someone wants me that bad, odds are 99-1 I'm screwed.
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There isn't any one on the planet that can't be "got", Don't believe me, ask Reagan or Kennedy.
But the chances that Looters are going to go to that level of effort is something only a troll or unbalanced individual would consider.
Now can we get back to the OT and discuss practical considerations like off grid power, low maintainance landscaping , and locations that lend themselves to self sufficiency.
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There isn't any one on the planet that can't be "got", Don't believe me, ask Reagan or Kennedy.
But the chances that Looters are going to go to that level of effort is something only a troll or unbalanced individual would consider.
Now can we get back to the OT and discuss practical considerations like off grid power, low maintainance landscaping , and locations that lend themselves to self sufficiency.
I think a survival topic would be good. Maybe Marshal and Teresa would consider one. Lacking that...start a thread Mr. Bogan. It's a good idea. I would like to know more about low maintenance landscaping and where 3 phase generators are available that couple with a good Lister type diesel.
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OK Tim, What is the purpose of a "Sheepshank" ;D
As to BM, He apparently has never lived in the country, between watch dogs and just the natural activities of local animals and birds even if you are alone, and set out no other form of perimeter security, unless you are totally oblivious you will be able to tell if an intruder enters the area. This will lead to false alarms because what the animals react to is not always something that will be important to you, but they will react to more than concerns you not less.
Crickets
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I think a survival topic would be good. Maybe Marshal and Teresa would consider one. Lacking that...start a thread Mr. Bogan. It's a good idea. I would like to know more about low maintenance landscaping and where 3 phase generators are available that couple with a good Lister type diesel.
Friend of mine has a place 20 miles off the pavement in the middle of nowhere in the Big North Woods. We go deer hunting there. It's not a bunker for when the SHTF, but just a place away from everything else. It is off the electric grid and when he bought it there were already two stationary diseal generators in place. One is a 4 cylinder John Deere powered genset and the other is a Lister 2 cylinder. The Lister turns at a lower RPM than the Deere but doesn't provide quite the power the Deere does either. It also uses about 1/3 the fuel as the Deere. I don't remember what the power ratings are on the gesets are or if they are capable of three phase. I'll have to take a closer look the next time I'm there. This isn't a small cabin, but a multibuilding compound including an old 5 bedroom log home probably built as a logging camp supertendent's quarters nearly a hundred years ago. At night when the gensets are off it is very dark and very quiet except for natures lights and sounds. We have seen deer, moose, bear, wolves, pine martins, eagles, loones, geese, ducks, partridge, and numerouse other small wildlife there. For heat in the main house there are two conventional furnaces that run when the power is on. When the power is off there are several propane fireplace styl heaters and a huge conventional fireplace that we usually just use for abiance. Surprisingly there is phone at his place.
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I have a 15KW gas genset that will easily run 50 amps. I would like to convert it to run from propane as well. They make a kit but it is $250 and all it looks like it a ring with a bunch of small holes in it that goes between the intake filter and the carb intake. Anyone know how I might make one? (with normal hand tools)
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HAZ, I'm no mechanic by a long shot, but that almost sounds like it may be a propane "carburator". Much like the burner on a gas stove. Does it have an inlet on it to hook up to a propane line? I think the key would be getiing the number of holes (jets) and size of them correct.
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haz its not going to happen.
propane carbs are nothing like gas carbs.
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Proper pressure regulation and the right number of holes in the 'diffuser' is the key, according to a guy in a neighboring town. They interviewed him on the local news last year for having all his lawn equipment for his business converted to propane. He said it cost him about $30.00 to do one lawn mower and all the parts come from Lowes.
Looked like all he had done was pulled the carb, gutted it and run a copper line (plugged, but with 1/8" holes drilled into it) inside the carb shell. Then he used trial and error to set the flow rate with a regular old regulator.
Read up on this a while back...
http://theepicenter.com/tow102899.html
Quote;
We contacted the experts in carburetion and asked for help! They said, "been there, done that, been doing it for years." The key is a vacuum controlled flow rate regulator, linked directly to a modified carburetor.
The 'variable' regulator is really only needed on engines that change speeds. If you have a generator that runs a constant, once you find the flow rate, set it and forget it.
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I've got a nice Honda that runs on gas and propane. Its enough to run 75% of the lights and everything but the the range, water heater and AC. The key with this is to pay an electrician to set up a secondary breaker box so you don't overload anything. It will cost a couple of bills but is well worth it as you dont have to worry about shorts. Just turn off the circuit breakers, switch to the secondry and you're good. Also propane is a big plus. I keep 11 tanks in my garage, no way in hell am I keeping that much gas in cans.
FQ13
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I'm not an electrician either, but I think you want a tranfer switch between the utility power and any backup power source.
If not set up and isolated properly you can backfeed the grid through the transformer, stepping up the power, making it dangerouse to utility workers. Lineman really frown on that. Also if not done correctly and utility power is restored all your equipment may be fried as well as risk to your home circuits, fire, and electrocution. I have heard tales of linemen and power companies having uncooperative cutomers running a generator during a power outage. At least one of them insisted on not turning off and disconnecting his generator. The homeowner insisted it was installed correctly. The homeowner found out very dramatically it wasn't installed right when the utility restored power.
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......... At least one of them insisted on not turning off and disconnecting his generator. The homeowner insisted it was installed correctly. The homeowner found out very dramatically it wasn't installed right when the utility restored power.
Some people have their generators plugged into their wall backfeeding their home. Without a proper line switch, people sometimes think they are isolated from the power somehow (or forget to isolate by throwing their main) and the result can be a dead power company employee.
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Speaking of generators:
http://www.uscarb.com/
If anyone has a geny they want to convert over to propane or natural gas I bought a propane kit from here for my little 3,500 watt generator and it works great! Took about an hour to install, and was super easy to do. I chose the smaller generator because its easy to transport, and runs MUCH quieter than our 7,500 watt. You can stand over most little 3,500 watt generators and hold a normal conversation. Noise level may not seem like a big deal until you have to live off one for a couple days. And the smaller geny will run for a LOT longer on less fuel.
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I'm not an electrician either, but I think you want a tranfer switch between the utility power and any backup power source.
If not set up and isolated properly you can backfeed the grid through the transformer, stepping up the power, making it dangerouse to utility workers. Lineman really frown on that. Also if not done correctly and utility power is restored all your equipment may be fried as well as risk to your home circuits, fire, and electrocution. I have heard tales of linemen and power companies having uncooperative cutomers running a generator during a power outage. At least one of them insisted on not turning off and disconnecting his generator. The homeowner insisted it was installed correctly. The homeowner found out very dramatically it wasn't installed right when the utility restored power.
As an electrician, you need to have a "break before make" isolating breaker, your on the power company power OR gen power, AND NEVER THE TWO SHALL MEET!!!
Also are inverters, very popular in countries with substandard electrical grids. In essence golf cart batteries wired in series to create a large battery bank, run into an inverter which creates 240/120 VAC. to run your house, there is seamless transfer safety devices, growing in popularity here in FL. where the power cuts out and the inverter takes over so yo don;t even see a blink.
Regardless, who needs a 3 phase Generator??? What are you going to run with that?? Your Dryer & Stove, even hot tubs are 240 dual phase... L1 L2 N G thats it...
Three phase is L1 L2 L3 NO neutral and ground. 208 3ph is no joke, and you need to have a freq meter to maintain 60Hz here in the US or you will blow your appliance whatever up...
You must have a bad ass big screen for 3ph, I worked on the Princess of Mariana over 200 ft of floating power. 4 155kw generators, all 480 3ph...
This will light your neighborhood, apt bldg. and/or small community. Unless your running some serious heavy equip. 3ph is not practical..
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As an electrician, you need to have a "break before make" isolating breaker, your on the power company power OR gen power, AND NEVER THE TWO SHALL MEET!!!
Also are inverters, very popular in countries with substandard electrical grids. In essence golf cart batteries wired in series to create a large battery bank, run into an inverter which creates 240/120 VAC. to run your house, there is seamless transfer safety devices, growing in popularity here in FL. where the power cuts out and the inverter takes over so yo don;t even see a blink.
Regardless, who needs a 3 phase Generator??? What are you going to run with that?? Your Dryer & Stove, even hot tubs are 240 dual phase... L1 L2 N G thats it...
Three phase is L1 L2 L3 NO neutral and ground. 208 3ph is no joke, and you need to have a freq meter to maintain 60Hz here in the US or you will blow your appliance whatever up...
You must have a bad ass big screen for 3ph, I worked on the Princess of Mariana over 200 ft of floating power. 4 155kw generators, all 480 3ph...
This will light your neighborhood, apt bldg. and/or small community. Unless your running some serious heavy equip. 3ph is not practical..
Yep...yep....and yep.
I spent many years working with all the above......mostly 480v 3ph and down.
And don't forget the rarely seen (except in fluorescent light circuits) 277v......it'll eat your ass up too if you slip up......
Don't ask how I know.
I just know.
;D
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Yep...yep....and yep.
I spent many years working with all the above......mostly 480v 3ph and down.
And don't forget the rarely seen (except in fluorescent light circuits) 277v......it'll eat your ass up too if you slip up......
Don't ask how I know.
I just know.
;D
We've lived parallel lives Chuck....I worked with high HP motors for years, wired hundreds to save the company money. Our contract electrician trusted me and just verified my work. Not really any reason for 3 phase power in a residential neighborhood unless there happens to be a business nearby or you need the extra ooomphhh for large motors on the farm.
I must admit, I haven't heard the term dual-phase in some time, it's basically obsolete and sometimes called that when it's 3 wire single phase system as with your dryers and stoves.
High voltage work is not for the average backyard electrician. I have no problem with most electrical work around the house and I've completely redone three of four houses. It's best left to the pro's if your not comfortable.
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Yep...yep....and yep.
I spent many years working with all the above......mostly 480v 3ph and down.
And don't forget the rarely seen (except in fluorescent light circuits) 277v......it'll eat your ass up too if you slip up......
Don't ask how I know.
I just know.
;D
Guy I went to high school with became an electrician. He worked for a company that did a lot of work at the plant I worked at. I occasionally saw him, but mostly worked with a older electrician from that company. They were working together one day at another location when my former classmate got nailed by one of those 277 volt fluorescent circuits and was electroucuted by it. The older electrcian did CPR and rescue breathing and brought him back. There was some discussion that the ballast was faulty and acted as a stepup transformer, but I don't know enough about that to know if that was possible or if someone was just trying to cover their butt.
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Biggest thing we worked with on a regular basis was 250 horse power 480v motors that ran the hydraulic system pumps. Very aggravating to wire because of the size of the motor leads.
Mostly we worked with 120v ac control voltage. Hated working with phase inverters and DC/AC inverters and variable speed drives.
Along the thread lines, solar or wind power and a good bank of batteries and a good industrial inverter and you could power a good many appliances. It wouldn't be cheap, though.
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Guy I went to high school with became an electrician. He worked for a company that did a lot of work at the plant I worked at. I occasionally saw him, but mostly worked with a older electrician from that company. They were working together one day at another location when my former classmate got nailed by one of those 277 volt fluorescent circuits and was electroucuted by it. The older electrcian did CPR and rescue breathing and brought him back. There was some discussion that the ballast was faulty and acted as a stepup transformer, but I don't know enough about that to know if that was possible or if someone was just trying to cover their butt.
Possible....if you contact the right spots. I can kill you with a 9v battery....if set up properly.
It's not voltage that does the most damage (other than bad burns)....It's the amperage that stops the heart quickest.
It only takes .6 amps to stop the human heart.
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In the Navy, I worked for a time in the ET shop. The HV cabinets with all the sonar gear had little shelves on the inside of the door to rest your elbow on when you were testing the circuits. This prevented the current from passing through your body. It would exit at your elbow...missing the heart.
Trivia.....why do sailors where a fabric web belt and only that type of belt with a removable buckle?
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So the metal belt buckle doesn't make contact and fry you. I had some sailor telling me something about this once, but he was usually so full of BS that I mostly didn't pay attention to what he was saying.
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I did the reseacrh once... for $100,000 (my house is worth about $115k) I could have enough soar panel to run everything the exact way i run now, including my A/C. The panels would cover the entire back slope of my roof. And I am sure I could put a killer battery bank in my 4 car garage....
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In the Navy, I worked for a time in the ET shop. The HV cabinets with all the sonar gear had little shelves on the inside of the door to rest your elbow on when you were testing the circuits. This prevented the current from passing through your body. It would exit at your elbow...missing the heart.
Trivia.....why do sailors where a fabric web belt and only that type of belt with a removable buckle?
Timothy, I am amazed and proud to hear about the elbow rest. Ergonomic, cheap and good common sense. They probably fired the guy that came up with it. :-\ Seriously, the smartest thing I ever saw in academia was when a school I worked at built a new building. They didn't put in side walks. They waited a semester and saw where the foot paths from the parkining lot and other sidewalks led. Those, they paved. There is a world's worth of wisdom in that that goes far beyond the technical. The guys that made th at call earned more than their money's worth.
FQ13
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I did the reseacrh once... for $100,000 (my house is worth about $115k) I could have enough soar panel to run everything the exact way i run now, including my A/C. The panels would cover the entire back slope of my roof. And I am sure I could put a killer battery bank in my 4 car garage....
http://solarpoweredhouse.net/
Some of the sites I found talked about making your own panels for a fraction of the cost, of course I can't find any of them NOW.
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So the metal belt buckle doesn't make contact and fry you. I had some sailor telling me something about this once, but he was usually so full of BS that I mostly didn't pay attention to what he was saying.
Close....the belt is woven cotton with a brass bucket that can be removed quickly. If a fellow sailor somehow get's him self electrocuted and is still connected to the circuit and you tried to help him, you become part of the circuit and would get zapped as well.
By removing your belt, removing the buckle, you have a non-conductive lanyard of sorts to carefully wrap around an appendage and drag him or her out of the electrical field or circuit he's attached to with out doing yourself any harm in the process.
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Dragged out by the appendage. ;D
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Possible....if you contact the right spots. I can kill you with a 9v battery....if set up properly.
It's not voltage that does the most damage (other than bad burns)....It's the amperage that stops the heart quickest.
It only takes .6 amps to stop the human heart.
Isn't it only a 9v that powers most stun guns?
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Isn't it only a 9v that powers most stun guns?
Yes and 4 AA at 1.5 volts a piece. The voltage is not impressive until you run in through a transformer inside the stun gun itself.
Stun guns are ALL voltage, no amperage. A simple 9volt, run through a small step up oscillating transformer can boost a voltage push up to 15,000 volts or higher with tasers, for a brief shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_weapon
Principles of operation
Electroshock weapon technology uses a temporary high-voltage low-current electrical discharge to override the body's muscle-triggering mechanisms. The recipient is immobilized via two metal probes connected via metal wires to the electroshock device. The recipient feels pain, and can be momentarily paralyzed while an electric current is being applied. It is reported that applying electroshock devices to more sensitive parts of the body is even more painful.[1] The maximum effective areas for stun gun usage are upper shoulder, below the rib cage, and the upper hip. High voltages are used, but because most devices use a high frequency alternating current, the skin effect prevents a lethal amount of current from traveling into the body. The resulting 'shock' is caused by muscles twitching uncontrollably, appearing as muscle spasms.
The internal circuits of most electroshock weapons are fairly simple, based on either an oscillator, resonant circuit, and step-up transformer or a diode-capacitor voltage multiplier to achieve the continuous, direct, or alternating high-voltage discharge. It may be powered by one or more batteries depending on manufacturer and model. The output voltages without external "load" (which would be the target's body) are claimed to be in the range of 50 kV up to 1000 kV, with the most common being in the 200 to 300 kV range. However, since air has a dielectric breakdown (Emax) of 3000 kV/m, it is clear that the spacing of the electrodes will not permit the upper range of claimed voltages (900 kV representing a minimum electrode spacing of about 30 cm). The output current upon contact with the target will depend on various factors such as target's resistance, skin type, moisture, bodily salinity, clothing, the electroshock weapon's internal circuitry, discharge waveform, and battery conditions.[2][3]
It will light your ass up regardless, the "little" 9volt can generate quite a nasty little tingle to the body when stepped up.
Current or (amps), is what kills you. The electric chair was standard 240VAC, but a transformer through a frankenstien resistor, created well over 250 to 500 amps. THAT is what fried the condemned.
Can also be done with a car battery.. If you can utilize the amps...
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I know it's major thread drift....but you can never be too safe around electricity.........so to ad to the excellent info that TW posted:
The electrical resistance of the human body depends on the condition of your skin at the time of measurement. If your skin is wet, you could have a resistance of only about 1100 Ohms. With dry skin, the amount is much higher at around 495,000 Ohms.
The electrical resistance of your internal body is much smaller at about 85 Ohms up to 575 Ohms.
Now let's talk about how this applies to getting zapped by electricity.
When working with any kind of electricity, you need to make sure you are staying dry. This means if you are going to be working in a hot place where you will sweat, then take a towel with you, or take frequent breaks and dry off. If you get shocked while wet, you are much more likely to feel the jolt, and in some cases this can be the difference between life and death. Now let's discuss the reason that getting shocked could lead to death. Whenever you hear on the news or internet, "Oh wow, he just got shocked by 50,000 volts", you are thinking, how in the world is he still alive? Well here is the answer to this time aged question.
The amount of voltage is not the issue in most cases, it's the amount of current (amperage) introduced into the human body that can kill. It only takes about .015 amps across the heart to kill a person. That's it, .015 amps! So the bottom line is no matter how little the voltage might be, always disconnect power at the breaker, and then check with a meter at the wall outlet, switch, whatever you are working on, to make sure power is really off. Have fun, BE SAFE, and always respect electricity.
http://www.ohmcheck.com/human_electrical_resistance.htm
For more:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html