The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Teresa Heilevang on August 30, 2009, 09:58:55 AM
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This is hard to believe but, the Washington Post has quite a story to tell. Atty Gen. Eric Holder and the Obama Administration took a shot between their beady little eyeballs. It seems that extremely high value information was extracted from a few al Qaeda terrorists through so-called harsh interrogation tactics. The Washington Post's lead story today was an extraordinary one cutting against the conclusions of a series of recent government and media reports to cast as straight news -- with a few hedges and qualifications -- that waterboarding and sleep deprivation worked like a charm to turn Kalid Sheik Mohammed, master-mind of 9/11, from an enemy into an "asset."
(Washington Post Story)
After enduring the CIA’s harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency’s secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called “terrorist tutorials.”
In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.
Speaking in English, Mohammed “seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group’s plans, ideology and operatives,” said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. “He’d even use a chalkboard at times.”
These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its “preeminent source” on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.
“KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete,” according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA’s then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department.
Read rest of story at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/content/article/2009/08/28/AR2009082803874_pf.html
Here’s my take on this story - literally: The CIA just went to war. Eric Holder’s play to punish low level CIA operatives in a trumped up series of show trials has just backfired - badly. Let me put it this way. If the CIA just leaked this to the Post (and who else would have) this is embarrassing for the Obama administration.
That means the CIA has something in reserve that will humiliate the administration. You can bet your bottom dollar on that. The CIA is a very, very ugly enemy, as George Bush found out. I am not completely happy about that on several levels but it is still somewhat amusing to see that the CIA is quite willing to go right up against the Obama administration.
It is possible that Holder and company made a terrible mistake. Obama is very likely to be hammered a lot worse if he does not call Holder off - right now. This was a warning shot by the CIA and I have all ideas they have a lot more in reserve.
( I got this from my friend Warph)
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No LINK?
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It's also a warning to CIA Director and Obama lackey Leon Paneta, another retread from the Clinton administration.
J Edgar Hoover wasn't the ONLY one in DC with access to blackmail material, and the Agency has far better sources.
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Try this one:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/28/AR2009082803874.html?wprss=rss_world&sid=ST2009082804015
We've got some of the local pantswetters hereabouts looking forward to Holder's witch hunt. I say, bring it on, it's a loser for the 'HO administration. It's obvious that they're in trouble and need to revert to the blame Bush mantra.
Buchanan sums it up nicely:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/28/the_rough_men_at_the_cia.html
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Thanks Walt
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Part of bho and his minions naivete in trying to take on the CIA. They are pros in being spooks, and probably have dirt on bho's momma at this point. Not that most of the dirt ain't already public.
Not a good thing for the CIA (and NSA and FBI et al.) to have that kind of power, but they do, and no way klintoon's monkey Paneta will ever be able to control them.
And BTW, anyone int he Bush gummint could have leaked this story, including Cheney who I think did it to protect the folks at the CIA. Plausible deniability and all that for the spooks not operating on US soil.
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Part of bho and his minions naivete in trying to take on the CIA. They are pros in being spooks, and probably have dirt on bho's momma at this point. Not that most of the dirt ain't already public.
Not a good thing for the CIA (and NSA and FBI et al.) to have that kind of power, but they do, and no way klintoon's monkey Paneta will ever be able to control them.
And BTW, anyone int he Bush gummint could have leaked this story, including Cheney who I think did it to protect the folks at the CIA. Plausible deniability and all that for the spooks not operating on US soil.
Path for once we are in agreement. It's not a good thing that the CIA has that power, but then again, we wouldn't be getting our money's worth if they didn't. :-\ If anyone hangs it should be Cheny or Goss or however else gave the orders. This is not a political hit either. Its just me sympathizing with the grunts who are given the rules of engagement and follow through. As long as they acted in good faith and did not exceed their orders, and as long as those orders did not appear to be unlawful (like say Mai Lai), then the grunts should get a pass and the ones who issued them should be held to account.
FQ13
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Their account is paid in full as in PROTECTING AMERICA.
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I have an uncle who spent most of the Bush Presidency trying to get an investigation into 9/11 to determine if Bush was responsible for the attacks and UBL was just a flunky. He even went so far as to repeatedly travel from Boston to DC to pass out flyers at various Congressional offices asking for them. I have no doubt that if he ever actually got them the indictments would go further back than most of Bush's administration. My guess is Paneta and some of the other Clinton people OBummer has surrounded himself with don't want the Intel Community stirred up. It will all go away quietly and quickly when they pull open some of the files and say "STOP!"
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Path for once we are in agreement. It's not a good thing that the CIA has that power, but then again, we wouldn't be getting our money's worth if they didn't. :-\ If anyone hangs it should be Cheny or Goss or however else gave the orders. This is not a political hit either. Its just me sympathizing with the grunts who are given the rules of engagement and follow through. As long as they acted in good faith and did not exceed their orders, and as long as those orders did not appear to be unlawful (like say Mai Lai), then the grunts should get a pass and the ones who issued them should be held to account.
FQ13
WRONG!
No one has yet to come up with a clear explanation as to what exactly was done that was illegal? We waterboarded 3 people? Or rather 3 people were waterboarded at our hands or maybe through proxies? Out of how many thousands we picked up? According to this article, that technique worked miracles on a scumbucket lowlife like Mohammed and helped us dismantle a part of al-Qaeda. And this is from the WaPo, not exactly a big fan of Bush's.
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Who appointed Paneta? This is all a plot to get the left back in line, for their lemming support going into this fall session and next years mid term elections. Paneta had no intelligence background for a reason,....
Remember COMMUNITY ORGANIZER..
It's all a game hoping the banter of tit for tat distracts from the real agenda, the talking heads distract from a bigger picture.
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
Daniel Webster
An Internal Investigation was already performed, and found NO FINDINGS, this is Eric Holders/BHO's little move within the inner circle to get them back in line and become like the UK/Scotland, and give Miranda and Consitutional Rights to Terrorists.
Eric Holder's Law Firm has already defended Gitmo detainees, at tax payer expense.. This back and forth is designed to take away from the real deal...
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I assume you know Panetta, who has absolutely no Intelligence experience, was appointed by his socialist buddy Barack HUSSEIN Obama, which led even Diane Feinstein to question his appointment. Michelle Malkin refers to Panetta as "the perfect example of the Beltway swamp monster" Since the beginning of 2008 he has been paid 1.2 MILLION in, investment, speaking, and consulting fees by the likes of, Merrill Lynch, (bailed out) Wachovia, (Bailed out ) BP, Blue sheild of Ca. and Zenith National insurance.
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Since the beginning of 2008 he has been paid 1.2 MILLION in, investment, speaking, and consulting fees by the likes of, Merrill Lynch, (bailed out) Wachovia, (Bailed out ) BP, Blue sheild of Ca. and Zenith National insurance.
and Goldman-Sachs, is earning him more ROI, than any of us lowly citizens could ever hope to get.....
It's all inside baseball to get the far left back in line,....and a bunch of B.S.
As Limbaugh stated, WE (the U.S.A.) are the bad guys, the pistol waiving, power drill scare tactics, waterboarding, WORKED.
We may never know the whole story, but geez, THEY"RE TERRORISTS!!!!
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Since the beginning of 2008 he has been paid 1.2 MILLION in, investment, speaking, and consulting fees by the likes of, Merrill Lynch, (bailed out) Wachovia, (Bailed out ) BP, Blue sheild of Ca. and Zenith National insurance.
and Goldman-Sachs, is earning him more ROI, than any of us lowly citizens could ever hope to get.....
It's all inside baseball to get the far left back in line,....and a bunch of B.S.
As Limbaugh stated, WE (the U.S.A.) are the bad guys, the pistol waiving, power drill scare tactics, waterboarding, WORKED.
We may never know the whole story, but geez, THEY"RE TERRORISTS!!!!
I think like you, if it would save the life of ONE American, even an ungrateful, Obama voting socialist, I'd waterboard them, or put a drill bit through their knee, or a bullet through their head with out any qualms. And I'd sleep like a baby that night.
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I think like you, if it would save the life of ONE American, even an ungrateful, Obama voting socialist, I'd waterboard them, or put a drill bit through their knee, or a bullet through their head with out any qualms. And I'd sleep like a baby that night.
If they were guilty, I'm right there with you. But before you go all Jack Bauer on someone's ass bear in mind that we grabbed folks up who we THOUGHT, but weren't sure were Al Queda, including a 12 year old. I trust the feds about as much as you do, which is to say not very far. Why is the CIA all of of a sudden better than the IRS or the BATF? Don't even pretend to get your dander up about the evils of "sociailsm"and then defend the CIA as though it wasn't just another federal bureacracy. As Doc Holiday said "even my hypocricy has limits". The problem is that we need to understand that the government means well but will get it wrong on occasion. I do mention I'm a Christian on this board, but usually only when its relevant as I hate mixing politics and religion. Here I'll bring it up, as I will not condone torture on someone I don't KNOW (not think but know) is guilty, and even then only under the direst of circustances. Under the Bush Justice Department that wasn't even close to the standard. Now some may say, so what, we're safe, as though they could pove a correlation. The reason I mentioned my faith is so I can ask, "At what cost"? I'm neither naive nor suicidal, but there are some things I simply will not do. Not for me, you or my grandmother. There are lines that civilized men do not cross, period.
FQ13
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Not sure about you folks but I saw on tv the second plane hitting the Twin Towers in NYC on 9/11. I remember a co-worker looking at me with a pale face and said the Pentagon had been hit while he was talking to his wife on his cell phone. I don't give a damn how much it takes to keep people who would annihilate citizens of our country and who should be tortured to give up the secrets of those who would bring harm to United States citizens. The CIA screwed up then. But why should they be held accountable now????
We have to use all our resources to preserve Our Country. Leave the discretion to the professionals to continue to keep Our Country safe.
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There were a grand total of 3, count them, T-H-R-E-E high ranking Al Queda captives who were subjected to "enhanced" interrogation and waterboarding, all 3 wound up giving up large amounts of useful intel. And despite the lies Pelosi got caught in Key Senators and Congressman were aware before hand that it was being done.
As for the 12 year old girl, I will point out that American kids that young and younger have been convicted of murder. I could most likely break her with out resorting to the electric drill but would she know know anything worth the effort ?
As for your scruples, the CIA is forbidden to operate in the US, and the majority of the people working their vote for liberals.
People like you can't get it through your pampered college insulated heads that in the world where people are working, not to make the car payment, or the or the electric bill, but merely to survive another day, your standards don't work.
You think you are superior because you would not slap Abdul's wife around to find out where he hides his bombing making gear. The fact is, when you leave he will figure she did anyway because you didn't kill her so he will cut her throat and cut out her tongue as a warning to others.
Mike Spann tried it YOUR way, ask HIM how well it worked. Oh, you can't, that's right to, the people you are sticking up for spent a couple days torturing him to death, not for information, he didn't have any they could use, they did it just because. John Walker Lindh, the so called "American Taliban" was there, in fact, he was the person Spann was interrogating when he was taken at the beginning of the prison uprising.
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I get your point Tom, and as I said, I am favor of giving the benefit of the doubt to the guys in the field. Maybe I'm selfish but I tend to remember that how you treat a prisoner in your care says nothing about what kind of person they are, but everyhing about what kind of person YOU are. Ultimately, its a question of honor. As far as Spann, yeah, the enemy is filled with men without honor. If you can prove they are guilty, than do what you need to, but don't think it doesn't come without a price, not external, but internal.
FQ13
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I get your point Tom, and as I said, I am favor of giving the benefit of the doubt to the guys in the field. Maybe I'm selfish but I tend to remember that how you treat a prisoner in your care says nothing about what kind of person they are, but everyhing about what kind of person YOU are. Ultimately, its a question of honor. As far as Spann, yeah, the enemy is filled with men without honor. If you can prove they are guilty, than do what you need to, but don't think it doesn't come without a price, not external, but internal.
FQ13
FQ, It's not that they are without honor, this is the part that most don't understand. There are probably no men on earth who are more honorable than the Afghan hill tribesman. But the fact that they have been at war constantly since before Alexander the Great passed through, in a land that hates them and only provides food grudgingly has left them with priorities and a code of honor that is totally alien to our way of thinking. It basically boils down to family/clan, village and guests are protected with your life, everyone else is fair game. Truth be told there are probably no freer men on the planet, they have their religion, their weapons,their traditions, and their hills, (7000+ feet ) and they don't want or need any more.
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FQ, It's not that they are without honor, this is the part that most don't understand. There are probably no men on earth who are more honorable than the Afghan hill tribesman. But the fact that they have been at war constantly since before Alexander the Great passed through, in a land that hates them and only provides food grudgingly has left them with priorities and a code of honor that is totally alien to our way of thinking. It basically boils down to family/clan, village and guests are protected with your life, everyone else is fair game. Truth be told there are probably no freer men on the planet, they have their religion, their weapons,their traditions, and their hills, (7000+ feet ) and they don't want or need any more.
+1
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In my honest opinion, the controversy boils down to this: Everybody wants results, but nobody is willing to get their hands dirty.
God bless those whose hands get dirty keeping America safe.
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God bless those whose hands get dirty keeping America safe.
Amen, brother.
Whatever it takes. There is no room for political correctness when dealing with those who seek to harm this nation and its citizens.
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Amen, brother.
Whatever it takes. There is no room for political correctness when dealing with those who seek to harm this nation and its citizens.
That's true Kid. I think I've made it clear that I understand that fact. BUT just because we're fighting thugs doesn't mean we get to become one either. No one ever became a saint by living among sinners. I want our troopsto be able to do what they need to do, but we also need to remember why we are different from the other guys and part of that is understanding that there certain things that we simply WILL not (not cannot, but Will not) do. Why? Because its its wrong, for us, for them, today, yesterday and tomorrow and we just won't go there. Again, I say for the second time on this thread, it's a matter of honor. At the end of the day, that's the only thing you get to take with you in the casket. You've got it or you don't.
FQ13
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That's true Kid. I think I've made it clear that I understand that fact. BUT just because we're fighting thugs doesn't mean we get to become one either. No one ever became a saint by living among sinners. I want our troopsto be able to do what they need to do, but we also need to remember why we are different from the other guys and part of that is understanding that there certain things that we simply WILL not (not cannot, but Will not) do. Why? Because its its wrong, for us, for them, today, yesterday and tomorrow and we just won't go there. Again, I say for the second time on this thread, it's a matter of honor. At the end of the day, that's the only thing you get to take with you in the casket. You've got it or you don't.
FQ13
It's WAR FQ, War means Fighting, fighting means killing, get over being squeamish or lose.
Your way of thinking is part of why we haven't flat out WON a war since 1945.
I support ANY action that keeps Americans safe, If that means firing bombing a city for a week straight and killing 600,000 civilians, so be it. If it means hooking a set of jumper cables to some a holes nuts, oh well.
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It's WAR FQ, War means Fighting, fighting means killing, get over being squeamish or lose.
Your way of thinking is part of why we haven't flat out WON a war since 1945.
I support ANY action that keeps Americans safe, If that means firing bombing a city for a week straight and killing 600,000 civilians, so be it. If it means hooking a set of jumper cables to some a holes nuts, oh well.
Again I say, Amen Brother!!!
War ain't pretty and too many people seem to forget, "This is War!"
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This whole situation is like anything else the new administration has anything to do with.......IT STINKS ON ICE !!!
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This whole situation is like anything else the new administration has anything to do with.......IT STINKS ON ICE !!!
The NEW administration? What about the last one that defined (under Gonzo) torture as "being equivilent to the pain of organ removal", as opposed to the more useful standard of would we call it torture if it were done to Jessica Lynch? Sorry folks, but I ain't a pacifest, I ain't naieve and I don't live in the Disney channel. However the rules (not the VERY rare exceptions that we just hypocritically ignore and do so with out apology ;D) is that we just DO NOT PRACTICE TORTURE. PERIOD. FULL STOP. Some things are just flat wrong. Jack Bauer can kiss my ass, because this nation is founded on a set of principles that you subscribe to or you don't. Your call.
FQ13
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That's true Kid. I think I've made it clear that I understand that fact. BUT just because we're fighting thugs doesn't mean we get to become one either. No one ever became a saint by living among sinners. I want our troopsto be able to do what they need to do, but we also need to remember why we are different from the other guys and part of that is understanding that there certain things that we simply WILL not (not cannot, but Will not) do. Why? Because its its wrong, for us, for them, today, yesterday and tomorrow and we just won't go there. Again, I say for the second time on this thread, it's a matter of honor. At the end of the day, that's the only thing you get to take with you in the casket. You've got it or you don't.
FQ13
FQ, you are naive, you live (or lived) in academia which is as artificial and manufactured an environment as you can get. It is not real.
As for your throw-away snarky comment, I'm sure that will come as a complete surprise to Mother Teresa. She hasn't been canonized yet, but IIRC she is in the works. I'm not a Catholic, so that isn't my thing. Besides, that is exactly where a Christian belongs. As Jesus said, if I heal, why would I be around the healthy? It is the sick that need me. We are all challenged to be a witness to God's grace, and who do we tell, another Christian? Or the sinner that needs us? But this isn't really my point either.
My point is that the methods have nothing to do with who you are. With 3rd world trash like the ones we deal with - and even if you're dealing with Western trash - you do what you have to do, but it boils down to 2 things. You kill - utterly destroy - the perpetrators, and you send a message to those who might be thinking of being a perpetrator. The "above it all, I won't do that" attitude is great for the movies. The reality is very different.
Look at Iraq, we have not been fighting Iraqis for some time. Most of the BGs we're fighting (not all, but most) have been idealistic foreign imports coming in through Syria or Iran. The locals have seen what we are prepared to do - and in fact did - and wanted no part of it. The foreigners only see the news stories and BG propaganda sitting safe in their foreign homes, and think it's time to get the infidel. They learn when they get to Itaq that life in Iraq fighting the allied forces is very different - and probably very short too.
As a result, word has gotten out, and now look - Iraq is generally quiet, gone are the days where we lose a dozen people a day. Iraq is at a point where they can focus on rebuilding.
The key difference is that - especially in this case - their ideology drives them to kills, and even die willingly for their share of the virgins. We can do what it takes - whatever it takes to get the job done quickly and effectively - and still remember that we are radically different people than the BGs, even if we use their own tactics against them.
Let me share these I blatantly stole from the Magpul site:
(http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt169/gdlemail/Posters/Magpul-SameValueSystems.jpg)
(http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt169/gdlemail/Posters/Magpul-fairfight.jpg)
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Part of the reason we are in this fight is because we pansied around and didn't show enough spine and power early on, like as far back as the 60-70s. As was said before that area has been at war in some form or another for 1000s of years. They only repsect someone who can utterly destroy an enemy, but doesn't always (power with compassion). They also respect loyalty, something we're not very good at unfortunately. We get in a war, winning battles, but slow down and negotiate instead of win(loss of face) then rebuild, only to leave before the rebuilding is done (betrayal). We did it in Iran, Afganistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Pakistan through the 80s.
Look closely where all the foriegn fighters are coming from in Iraq. Places we've abandoned. Afganistan, and the Iran/Iraq War in the 80s was a weapons test facility for us against the Russians, nothing more. When it was over and they needed our help to rebuild we left. We helped up until the first Gulf War and had to put it on hold for a bit. When Slick Willie came into office it stopped. We pissed the entire region off doing that and now we're doing it again in Iraq. Leaving just as things are improving but not complete.
We don't want to be a thug and stoop to the level of the terrorists but at the same time we need to get information. My wife gets pissed when we talk about this stuff. She is of the mind that they kill/maime/mutilate to show they can, we have to follow the Geneva Convention and not harm prisoners of war and that limits our effectiveness. One less terrorist to attack us later on she believes.
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I believe it was Attila the Hun who destroyed the Central Asian city of Bukhara.
When he was done he told the widows and orphans, " I am a punishment from Allah. You must have been VERY bad people for Allah to send you such a fate."
They didn't give HIM any more trouble.
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My dear departed daddy used to say something that think fits in here nicely:
"Son, there's no conflict that can't be solved by talking. You just need to make sure both of you are speaking the same language."
Sadly, when torture and barbarism are the only language your adversary understands, then that must be the language in which you communicate with him.
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My dear departed daddy used to say something that think fits in here nicely:
"Son, there's no conflict that can't be solved by talking. You just need to make sure both of you are speaking the same language."
Sadly, when torture and barbarism are the only language your adversary understands, then that must be the language in which you communicate with him.
Mine says something similar,
"you can negotiate with any one, but sometimes you have to wallop them with a 2X4 to get their attention first"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdMJ82BsXMU
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Mine says something similar,
"you can negotiate with any one, but sometimes you have to wallop them with a 2X4 to get their attention first"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdMJ82BsXMU
VERY effective negotiation technique. ;D
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My dear departed daddy used to say something that think fits in here nicely:
"Son, there's no conflict that can't be solved by talking. You just need to make sure both of you are speaking the same language."
Sadly, when torture and barbarism are the only language your adversary understands, then that must be the language in which you communicate with him.
AWESOME
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The NEW administration? What about the last one that defined (under Gonzo) torture as "being equivilent to the pain of organ removal", as opposed to the more useful standard of would we call it torture if it were done to Jessica Lynch? Sorry folks, but I ain't a pacifest, I ain't naieve and I don't live in the Disney channel. However the rules (not the VERY rare exceptions that we just hypocritically ignore and do so with out apology ;D) is that we just DO NOT PRACTICE TORTURE. PERIOD. FULL STOP. Some things are just flat wrong. Jack Bauer can kiss my ass, because this nation is founded on a set of principles that you subscribe to or you don't. Your call.
FQ13
I think I can jump in and offer some perspective. First, this whole "prosecute the torturers" deal is a political scheme. BHO, Holder, et. al. could give a rats posterior about "torture". It's a method to rally the leftist base to a losing cause on most other proposed fronts. If there were no scalps to take back to the drooling leftist donkey-hats there would be no story. They feel if they could get a Cheney or a Rove they can swing obamacare or cap and tax. The administration has hung it's battle of the bulge on some flimsy ground, and it would seem that the CIA and Cheney are perfectly willing to respond in kind.
Second, torture needs to be defined. FQ it seems you have accepted, whole cloth, the torture red herring. I would challenge anyone opposed to this supposed "torture". I have heard a lot of hyperbole, but very few solid facts on torture. Second hand smoke? I have been busy as of late and have not had the opportunity to wade through to get to the actual facts in question, but it would seem those incensed about "torture" are being led with allusions and not much more.
I may be totally off base, but when you accept a faulty premise, it is hard to come to any conclusion but the one who proposed the issue would have you come to. Waterboarding: not torture. Second hand smoke: not torture, threating someone with a drill: not torture. Threating to kill someone's family: not torture. Faking someone's death: not torture. Actually if these enhanced interrogation techniques were on television, it would be Punk'd or some reality TV show.
I believe it is high time that the administration gets its own reality check.
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I think I can jump in and offer some perspective. First, this whole "prosecute the torturers" deal is a political scheme. BHO, Holder, et. al. could give a rats posterior about "torture". It's a method to rally the leftist base to a losing cause on most other proposed fronts. If there were no scalps to take back to the drooling leftist donkey-hats there would be no story. They feel if they could get a Cheney or a Rove they can swing obamacare or cap and tax. The administration has hung it's battle of the bulge on some flimsy ground, and it would seem that the CIA and Cheney are perfectly willing to respond in kind.
Second, torture needs to be defined. FQ it seems you have accepted, whole cloth, the torture red herring. I would challenge anyone opposed to this supposed "torture". I have heard a lot of hyperbole, but very few solid facts on torture. Second hand smoke? I have been busy as of late and have not had the opportunity to wade through to get to the actual facts in question, but it would seem those incensed about "torture" are being led with allusions and not much more.
I may be totally off base, but when you accept a faulty premise, it is hard to come to any conclusion but the one who proposed the issue would have you come to. Waterboarding: not torture. Second hand smoke: not torture, threating someone with a drill: not torture. Threating to kill someone's family: not torture. Faking someone's death: not torture. Actually if these enhanced interrogation techniques were on television, it would be Punk'd or some reality TV show.
I believe it is high time that the administration gets its own reality check.
You can't see it, but I'm giving you a standing ovation right now.
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You can't see it, but I'm giving you a standing ovation right now.
+1
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I think I can jump in and offer some perspective. First, this whole "prosecute the torturers" deal is a political scheme. BHO, Holder, et. al. could give a rats posterior about "torture". It's a method to rally the leftist base to a losing cause on most other proposed fronts. If there were no scalps to take back to the drooling leftist donkey-hats there would be no story. They feel if they could get a Cheney or a Rove they can swing obamacare or cap and tax. The administration has hung it's battle of the bulge on some flimsy ground, and it would seem that the CIA and Cheney are perfectly willing to respond in kind.
Second, torture needs to be defined. FQ it seems you have accepted, whole cloth, the torture red herring. I would challenge anyone opposed to this supposed "torture". I have heard a lot of hyperbole, but very few solid facts on torture. Second hand smoke? I have been busy as of late and have not had the opportunity to wade through to get to the actual facts in question, but it would seem those incensed about "torture" are being led with allusions and not much more.
I may be totally off base, but when you accept a faulty premise, it is hard to come to any conclusion but the one who proposed the issue would have you come to. Waterboarding: not torture. Second hand smoke: not torture, threating someone with a drill: not torture. Threating to kill someone's family: not torture. Faking someone's death: not torture. Actually if these enhanced interrogation techniques were on television, it would be Punk'd or some reality TV show.
I believe it is high time that the administration gets its own reality check.
Superb. Well said, Sir.