Decocker Safety

[seeker_two]

I will disagree somewhat in that the M1911, in it's original design, was a combination of older designs AND the Army's requirements for a grip safety, slide safety and to be carried in a cocked and locked condition.  They even required a lanyard loop attached to the MSH to prevent a calvaryman from losing his sidearm when riding a horse.

The Army never required cocked-&-locked carry....just a way to secure the pistol from firing while on horseback (a lot of horses learned first-hand how dangerous decocking a SAA while riding was  ).  The Army wanted the grip & thumb safeties so they could safe the pistol until they could dismount and decock.

Here's the process in order:
1. While dismounted, load your 1911, chamber round, decock, and holster.
2. Mount horse and ride into battle.
3. Draw and cock 1911 (like the SAA).
4. When done firing, use thumb safety to secure and holster 1911.
5. Dismount horse at camp.
6. Decock, unload, and clean 1911.

I'm not advocating Condition 2 as the best way to carry a SA autoloader, but it's not unsafe. 

....and the cavalry also had lanyards on their magazines, too..... 

[Timothy]

Excerpt from the War Department Field manual for M1911, dated April 1, 1912...

A loaded magazine is placed in the handle and the slide drawn
fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the
chamber (if the slide is open, push down the slide stop to let the
slide go forward). The hammer is thus cocked and the
pistol is ready for firing.

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for
firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots,
draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the cham-
ber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide
and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock
upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer
 being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at
full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock
(which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the
pistol to the firing position.

The grip safety is provided with an extending horn, which
not only serves as a guard to prevent the hand of the shooter from
slipping upward and being struck or injured by the hammer,
but also aids in accurate shooting by keeping the hand in the same
position for each shot ; and, furthermore, permits the lowering of the
cocked hammer with one hand by automatically pressing in the
grip safety when the hammer is drawn slightly beyond the
cocked position. In order to release the hammer, the grip
safety must be pressed in before the trigger is pulled.

SAFETY DEVICES.

It is impossible for the firing pin to discharge or even touch
the primer, except on receiving the full blow of the hammer.
The pistol is provided with two automatic safety devices :
The (automatic) disconnector which positively prevents
the release of the hammer unless the slide and barrel
are in the forward position and safely interlocked; this device also
controls the firing and prevents more than one shot from following
each pull of the trigger.

 The (automatic) grip safety at all times locks the trigger
unless the handle is firmly grasped and the grip safety
pressed in.

The pistol is in addition provided with a safety lock by which
the closed slide and the cocked hammer can be at will posi-
tively locked in position.

[seeker_two]

Excerpt from the War Department Field manual for M1911, dated April 1, 1912...

A loaded magazine is placed in the handle and the slide drawn
fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the
chamber (if the slide is open, push down the slide stop to let the
slide go forward). The hammer is thus cocked and the
pistol is ready for firing.

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for
firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots,
draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the cham-
ber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide
and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock
upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer
 being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at
full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock
(which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the
pistol to the firing position.

The grip safety is provided with an extending horn, which
not only serves as a guard to prevent the hand of the shooter from
slipping upward and being struck or injured by the hammer,
but also aids in accurate shooting by keeping the hand in the same
position for each shot ; and, furthermore, permits the lowering of the
cocked hammer with one hand by automatically pressing in the
grip safety when the hammer is drawn slightly beyond the
cocked position. In order to release the hammer, the grip
safety must be pressed in before the trigger is pulled.

Thanks for proving my point..... 

[Timothy]

Thanks for proving my point..... 

Well, I'll be damned!.....I just tried that with my 1911 and though it's tough to do with a full beavertail and a combat hammer assembly, it does what it says it does.  I would still not advise to carry in this condition nor would I advise lowering a hammer with one hand, but it would seem that I stand corrected.

We can debate for another 100 years about that being a wise design decision, I'm sure....JMB remains a God in my eyes regardless of the outcome...

 

For what it's worth, the later manual of the 1911A1 DID allow for cocked and locked, just couldn't copy and paste the text.  Moot point I know.

[seeker_two]

We can debate for another 100 years about that being a wise design decision, I'm sure....JMB remains a God in my eyes regardless of the outcome...

....and the congregation said AMEN....  

Thanks for the discuss.... 

[Sponsor]

[MikeBjerum]

That is true...no argument there........ but are you willing to gamble with a dropped gun that lands muzzle down?

Or a snag on interior of vehicle or underside of a workbench or counter as you get up or move around 

Cocked and locked or empty chamber ... otherwise known as leave it at home and carry something else!

[tombogan03884]

Another thing, that only applies to Colt pistols.

[Timothy]

Another thing, that only applies to Colt pistols.

The more I bash this around in my brain, I keep thinking.....since you CANNOT engage the thumb safety with out being at full cock, why have it if not for cocked and locked conditions?

I'm swinging back to my original position...and I have a series 80 mechanism so if anything, carrying hammer down would be safer than a Government model but I still would never do it.

[PegLeg45]

Well, since this is a thread about de-cocking, 1911 users who are frightened of condition 1 could always go with the Safety Fast System from Cylinder & Slide.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SFSkits


 

[Big Frank]

I can have my LDA UN-cocked and locked. That seems very safe. I think the SFS system allows that too.