4 Police Officers Shot Dead Near Washington State Air Force Base

[Pathfinder]

Don't remember if I saw it here or on Mas Ayoob's blog, but someone made what seems to me to be the best idea yet for avoiding this sort of thing - people in uniform, especially cops, should not all sit together in public.  Separate booths, separate tables, you get the idea.  Also, it might be good policy to have a "designated observer," in such settings - someone not doing paperwork or otherwise occupied, but simply keeping an eye out for suspicious characters.  Might save some lives, and this way everybody doesn't have to go around in condition orange 24/7.

Not to mention not sitting with your back to the door. Even I know (after learning of Wild Bill Hickock many many years ago) know not to do that.

[sledgemeister]

Just a question, is it usual for LEO's in uniform to meet up at coffee shops before starting work to catch up on paper work? Just seems rather strange behaviour isnt that what the station is for?

[ratcatcher55]

Ratcatcher -

The only problem with your plan is that by equiping themselves for the exercise, (masks and such) they will be in a hightened state of awareness.  Training officers need to make an effort of simulating attacks at meetings and gatherings with officers (do this in settings where they are unarmed, so they don't shoot in reaction). It is a matter of educating officers that there is no such thing as a perfectly safe place.

It's just an exercise to show you what a disadvantage you are at reacting to an ambush. All training is "unnatural" in that aspect because you know you are going to draw and probably fire your weapon. It does allow some stress hardening and develop behaviors that can help you survive. Less of the Oh Sh*t moments and more action. It's better to find out what won't work in a drill than be surprised in real life.

I think TAB is correct that if they had split up at two tables they would have had a better chance to defend themselves. You could game that too. The problem is in real life they end up talking a cross tables which may be rude to everyone there. In Philly the cops tended to go as far back in a diner as they could get. Distance was time to react. 

Personally I check out everybody who walks in any room I'm in. My wife was notices it most folks are too self absorbed to be aware of it.

I believe Mr. Pincus teaches counter ambush courses.  Maybe he has some thoughts

[2HOW]

The contact and cover protocal used on the street perhaps needs to be used in more familiar surroundings where officers congregate. Even the big wall street banks are limiting employees to groups of 11 while they wait for their firearms permits to repel the impending hoards of pissed off consumers. This story from DUF mailer reminds that training is a good start as well.


3 Dec 09

Gun Ignorance, even among "Professionals."  This from a student and Chiropractor in the Midwest:

"A local, uniformed, patrol officer came in to my office last week, complaining of headaches and lower-back pain.  She stated that pain was occurring while she was on duty, and mentioned that her duty-belt was uncomfortable.

I began by asking about her duty-pistol.  She stated that it was a SIG.  When I asked what model, she paused and answered, 'Why, it's a Sig/Sauer.  Is there another kind?'

I let out a breath and then asked if the weapon's magazines were single or double-stack, what caliber, how many spare magazines she carried, and where she carried them.  I got back a confused look, and then she asked me what 'double-stack' meant. In addition, she had no idea what caliber her pistol was, but we determined that both spare magazines were routinely carried on the same side as her pistol.

I asked if she practiced reloading her pistol with magazines carried thus.  She indicated that she '... couldn't remember,' adding 'I don't know; I just carry them there.'"

Comment: In light of the recent WA ambush of uniformed officers, the foregoing is of great concern.

"Police" is not 'what we do.'  It's 'what we ARE!'  A blase, clueless officer, like this one, is in extreme danger every minute she is working, as is everyone she works with, and everyone she ostensibly "protects."

Her training officer and her chief, for everyone's sake, need to get her on-board, get her into some other kind of work, or plan on attending funeral(s)!

/John

(I assume that the above “interview” began as a chiropractor attempting to get to the source of the back pain; police duty belts are commonly implicated. From time to time I either see someone carrying openly in town or, worse yet, one of my students showing up with one of those “cool” holsters, with a magazine pouch mounted on the holster itself, just forward of the top of the slide of the pistol. The problem is that we normally retain the pistol in the shooting hand while reloading. Thus, those who carry concealed are better served by carrying spare magazines on the non-dominant side. In uniform, some functional officers may carry in a horizontal pouch, which, while worn on the dominant side, presents the base of the magazine to the non-dominant hand. An officer who has not done reloads in training, in the academy and in service, has been sold short. Perhaps she was merely flustered at that point, by the questions she was unable to answer but someone who can’t think on her feet needs to find another line of work. Yes, the plural on “spare magazines” is intentional – 99% of malfunctions will be resolved with a reload, with no need for further diagnosis.)
--

[tombogan03884]

To build on what Ratcatcher posted, Whether talking across tables may be rude, if it helps get you home at night chuck decorum. at least if they are looking up occasionally to talk to the guys at the next table they have a better chance of seeing something or some one out of place around them.

[Sponsor]

[ratcatcher55]

From a friend:

I have learned a few things of interest re: the shooting of the 4 Officers in Lakewood WA. 
 
My sources are involved with the investigation and the information as accurate as possible at this time.  Three of the officers were killed by head shots and one was killed by a neck shot.  I believe that this suspect was very aware that most officers wear body armor.  The suspect expended 6 rounds from a .38 cal revolver and one shot from a 9MM.  One of the officers was able to get off two rounds with his Glock .40.  One round struck the suspect in the lower torso.  Witnesses observed the suspect in an altercation with one of the officers in the doorway of the business near the end of the incident. 
 
After being treated and driven around by friends the suspect stole a car which was a clunker and stalled.  He left it in the roadway with the hood up.  A patrol officer observed the veh and ran the plate.  The car was reported stolen.  He was in his car doing the paper work on recovering the stolen car when he saw the suspect approaching him from the rear.  The suspect was probably intent on shooting the officer from behind and perhaps taking the police veh.  The officer exited his veh and confronted and challenged the suspect.  The suspect ran around the police veh and reached into his pocket or waistband area as if arming himself.  The officer fired and hit the suspect at least twice killing him.
 

[tombogan03884]

 Thanks for the FACTUAL information RC.

[Ichiban]

I had not read that they were head shots but just assumed it.  Having your partner's brains sprayed across your face will probably delay your response reflex by several tenths of seconds.  Sadly, that delay was a luxury that they did not have.

May the perp rot in hell and those who aided and abetted rot in prison.

[philw]

Just a question, is it usual for LEO's in uniform to meet up at coffee shops before starting work to catch up on paper work? Just seems rather strange behaviour isnt that what the station is for?

I have been thinking the same thing

[tombogan03884]

 It is just as well the mutt was killed, any one who targets cops like that is an animal with no regard for punishment or consequences. This is the type of predator who, rather than stick up a citizen would kill them and then search their pockets.
A true "Menace to society". In the real old days the type of predators were called "Outlaws" and could be killed on sight.
The reasoning was that since they refused to abide by the rules of civilization, the law, They were outside the law and had no claim on it's protections.