FIST-FIRE System of Defense

[DonWorsham]

So what does that mean Don? No disrespect, but I could make you a better point shooter than when you started. Guess I need to start some kinda of point fire academy. sounds good dont it. Cmon now fellows.

No disrespect taken 2HOW. D.R. improved my shooting as did Gabe Suarez did when I trained with him and as did Rob Pincus when I trained with him.

I see nothing wrong with people "selling" their wares on this forum (assuming the forum rules allow it). Bane, Pincus and Janich are all "selling" us their stuff here -- it's how they make a living.

You seemed, 2HOW, to be questioning whether D.R. had anything worth selling. Questioning is good. If D.R. can't satisfy your questions, you don't want to train with him (or anyone else). I got my money's worth out of him.

[Tyler Durden]

On another forum, I kinda got the impression that there are just two kinds of D.R. Middlebrooks's folks.

Those that love him and are devout followers of his technique.

And then there are those that hate him.  On that same forum, I read one of the detractors call D.R.'s followers "moonies".  LOL!   

I still have an open mind about things.  I am a B class USPSA shooter and an expert class IDPA shooter.  I do have to say that I was impressed with the poppers getting knocked over at 50 yards or more without any sights.

I think I will send the video links to a few shooting buddies and see what they think.

D.R. , I think, is trying to change people's paradigms / dogma.  And as I have recently seen just here on this forum, there is a lot of resistance to change.  So, yeah, I can see where the hate is coming from.  Happy New Year, folks!

[Rob Pincus]

TD,

I think you may be right about the internet in general... certainly anyone who wasn't walking to the right sheet of music wasn't welcome at the Fist Fire Forums... but the specific flare up in the other forum was probably because, the defensive area has always been about exchange of ideas or information or, in a few cases, listing of actual training opportunities... never has anyone posted "look what I can do" videos and used them to try to sell a product.

-RJP

[Tyler Durden]

Well...Rob... .... You really can look at what I can do, by going to the link in the bottom.  Or to my YouTube page:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Posercam

Granted some of those videos are creeping up on 3 years of age.     I am a much better shooter now.  I am almost embarassed by those vids.  I finally got a new battery for the "posercam" so one of these days I will be back at a match "rolling tape" from my hatcam.

getting back more on topic...

First, there is an incredible inertia involved with people.  I mean, who doesn't get taught right from the get-go that their sight picture has to look exactly like this:



And then instructors inundate and/or beat into their students that they have to maintain that sight picture for the whole duration of the trigger pull....NOT a trigger jerk.

Furthermore, it is beaten into people that they have to build up a certain level of proficiency (read that as thousands of rounds downrange) so that they can call their shots.  (Just for the people following along at home.... shot calling = having a mental picture of what the sights looked like the instant the gun went BANG! And then figuring from that mental picture where the bullet hit on the target)

And not to get all tin foil-ey on you, but jeesh!     There is a huge, HUGE! segment of the gun industry that deals specifically with sights and sighting systems.  There is a lot of money to be made selling the latest fiber optic this and tritium that.  And, good grief!  I wish I had a nickel for every mall-ninja-ish  thread I came across where some guy was harping on having Back Up Iron Sights for his AR and having them co-witness with the red dot.   

The other forum I was talking about is very USPSA centric, so just in general, anything that has to do with self-defense tends to get poo-poo'ed fairly quickly.  Up til now before  taking a peek at D.R.'s fist fire system, my mantra was "Speed is a tactic....and a pretty %$^& good one at that."  That was one way to dismiss anything a Tacti-Billy had to say.  As in, "I can shoot a sub 6 second El Prez, can you?"  Well, if you can't, then anything else you have to say has no credibility. 

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Guys, yes, D.R. is obviously selling something...

Yep, and so are you, Rob. The difference is I’m selling SHOOTING TECHNIQUE, it’s what I do…  

but let's not focus on the labels or what other people can do with the system in a competition environment…

Where would we be without competition?     Martial Arts for example, have evolved more in the last 30 years than in the last 3,000.  Why? Competitions like Pride, UFC, etc.  The same holds true for handgun shooting. Shooting technique has evolved more in the last 30 years than in the last 300 due to competitions like IPSC, IDPA, TSA, etc...

but the specific flare up in the other forum was probably because, the defensive area has always been about exchange of ideas or information or, in a few cases, listing of actual training opportunities... never has anyone posted "look what I can do" videos and used them to try to sell a product.

-RJP

Why not? I'm selling Tactical Shooting Techniques so why not demo them?  Duh?    

Bottom Line: I've offered up evidence that FIST-FIRE works. And not just for me, but it works for my wife Barb, my Fist-Fire Instructors and numerous others as well.   But it won't work for anyone bogged down by the Old School Dogma of the last century...  

Cheers,  

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Sponsor]

[Rob Pincus]

Tyler,

First, there is an incredible inertia involved with people.  I mean, who doesn't get taught right from the get-go that their sight picture has to look exactly like this...

Guys who come to Combat Focus Shooting Programs, guys who come to Fist Fire and guys who come to several other programs I'm sure. The thought process isn't unique. I would love to hear some of the specifics about Fist Fire, but as the above post exemplifies hype, demo and denigration seem to be the high points.

-RJP

[fullautovalmet76]

Here's another perspective from Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics, Inc.:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI

I like the clap of thunder to announce his arrival and exit.....It's like going to Mount Olympus 

His background is in spec ops (Delta). And I believe he ran their training program for some time. Also, he is a USPSA Grandmaster too.

This whole discussion reminds me of when I was in college. There are certain fundamentals that are found in every course, no matter which school/instructor is teaching. The divergence comes when they attempt to apply these fundamentals in the context of competition shooting, or self defense shooting. I remember taking economic classes from professors who were in complete agreement on the fundamentals of macro economics, but were polar opposites on the application of those fundamentals to solve economic issues of the day- some were socialists and other were free market capitalists.

Using the "college" metaphor, I believe one should expose themselves to as many different schools of thought so they can and decide for themselves which works best for them. Having said this, I believe it is vital to compare whatever your chosen method(s) to the empirical evidence on the street or competition to determine if what you are doing is going to work, or is working....I hope that makes sense.....

[jaybet]

Hey guys, argue all you want but all this talk about fisting is givin' me the willies!

[Timothy]

I'm hoping for an all out "pissing" contest.....

Argue all you want........

[Tyler Durden]

There are pissing contests on the internet.     No way!

 

To use the sights or not use the sights, that is the question.

Well.... let me put it to you this way...

In calendar year 2008 alone, if I did the math correctly, I sent 7,200 rounds downrange just in matches alone.  I really don't practice because the nearest range that I can draw from a holster is 56 miles away.

After you have sent enough rounds down range, you do figure out how sloppy you can get with your sight picture or if you can ignore the sights entirely and that is a function of distance to the target and your experience with your gun (i.e. your "muscle memory" of your "index").

I think for some people using the sights is just a way to mentally or visually confirm their "index" before they take that last little bit of slack out of the trigger and the gun goes BANG!

There are tons and tons of people out there who use their sights just like that....it's just that they:

A.  have been so engrained to watch the sights, watch the sights, WATCH THE SIGHTS!  that they have become mentally pre-occupied with the sights that they ignore or exclude what the rest of their body is telling them

B.  haven't sent enough rounds downrange just yet get that A-HA!  EUREKA!  moment when they realize that their body is sending them the same signals time after time after time when the sight picture looks perfect.

C.  both A and B

Just for experimentation sake...I do have to wonder what it would be like to shoot a steel match without sights on the gun:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-870601232976768260&ei=L-lAS5qfB4jUqQKX27Vs&q=posercam+smoke+and+hope#

I sometimes wonder if I could shoot the Smoke and Hope stage with my eyes closed.  LOL!